When boat manufacturers install 110v wiring in a boat at
the factory for the "house" 110v circuits (like lights, plugs,
A/C, tv, etc..) what do they use?

do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do
for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire
in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going
to this expense.

anyone?

"Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message om...
Never use solid core wire on anything that moves, vibrates, or flexes- Cars,
boats, elevators, trains, etc. Solid wire is for buildings, signs, etc, that
never move. Movement will eventually break the wire (or just cause it to
weaken, creating a point of resistance that will be a fire hazard)


"Ytter" wrote in message
...
I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring
boats.Could you give me some of your expertise?
Thank You,
Ytter

On 27 May 2004 07:54:14 -0700, (Michael
Sutton) wrote:


do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do
for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire
in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going
to this expense.

Well, perhaps my experience will be instructive.

I have a 1973 racer cruiser made by Ontario Yachts, a reputable firm
known for solid boats (Ontario 28, 32, Niagara 35, etc.)

The electric wires in the boat are original except where I've changed
them. I intend to change all of them eventually, as I intend to
relocate the batteries, charger, etc. under a settee next to the mast
for better weight distribution.

The panel is little metal toggle switch with glass fuse holders with a
common positive side. Most of the DC power lines are very narrow, 20
or 22 gauge, to a terminal block in the head and aft and forward to
running lights. I replaced all mast wires with 12 gauge to spreader
lights, steaming and deck lights and 14 gauge to trilight and anchor
light. All DC wiring is tinned and stranded.

Wow, what a difference. Wait until I upgrade the cabin wiring and
replace the panel. The only exception to this is perhaps I will leave
the cabin lights with the old wiring, which is not in bad condition,
if I switch from 12 VDC auto light bulbs to LEDs...the LEDs draw so
little it is hardly worth the effort of drawing the cables through
cabinetry, etc.

I also replaced the stern light wire with 16 gauge to the panel.
Again, a gratifying jump in brightness.

All new hard-wired devices, like gas/propane alarm and solenoid, depth
sounder, etc. get 14 or 16 gauge Ancor wire to the panel depending on
draw. As I have a stock 35 amp alternator on my Atomic 4, I try to
avoid heavy draws where possible.

On the AC side, yes, there is obviously 10 gauge exterior Romex-type
wire going from the hook-up to a small 30 amp fuse box which uses the
"shotgun cartridge" style of brass-ended fuses. They haven't blown in
the five years I've owned the boat. The two pairs of AC outlets on the
boat are properly grounded, but the Romex is beginning to get
tired-looking. When I get a new panel next year I will replace it with
10 gauge marine wire because I want proper AC circuit breakers, a
hard-wired charger, a small inverter, full isolation and two extra
paired outlets, one in the V-berth so I can run power tools in the
anchor locker, and one in the nav station for a PC as we are getting
wireless networking at the YC and I like to download weather maps
before I cruise.

My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.

Hope this helps. I am learning as well and quite enjoying myself. I
won't miss those little glass fuses, I can tell you.

R.

Rhys,
Have you come up with a model/plan for your LED lighting? There was a guy
some time ago (in this newsgroup) who had used 12vdc LED trailer lighting (I
believe from JC Whitney) in his boat. It gave an amber glow and was mounted
under the decks on either side of the cabin. Looked good. That msg string
included some very high tech-high price options.
I might get string of those LEDs and experiment....
"rhys" wrote in message
...
On 27 May 2004 07:54:14 -0700, (Michael
Sutton) wrote:


do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do
for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire
in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going
to this expense.

Well, perhaps my experience will be instructive.

I have a 1973 racer cruiser made by Ontario Yachts, a reputable firm
known for solid boats (Ontario 28, 32, Niagara 35, etc.)

The electric wires in the boat are original except where I've changed
them. I intend to change all of them eventually, as I intend to
relocate the batteries, charger, etc. under a settee next to the mast
for better weight distribution.

The panel is little metal toggle switch with glass fuse holders with a
common positive side. Most of the DC power lines are very narrow, 20
or 22 gauge, to a terminal block in the head and aft and forward to
running lights. I replaced all mast wires with 12 gauge to spreader
lights, steaming and deck lights and 14 gauge to trilight and anchor
light. All DC wiring is tinned and stranded.

Wow, what a difference. Wait until I upgrade the cabin wiring and
replace the panel. The only exception to this is perhaps I will leave
the cabin lights with the old wiring, which is not in bad condition,
if I switch from 12 VDC auto light bulbs to LEDs...the LEDs draw so
little it is hardly worth the effort of drawing the cables through
cabinetry, etc.

I also replaced the stern light wire with 16 gauge to the panel.
Again, a gratifying jump in brightness.

All new hard-wired devices, like gas/propane alarm and solenoid, depth
sounder, etc. get 14 or 16 gauge Ancor wire to the panel depending on
draw. As I have a stock 35 amp alternator on my Atomic 4, I try to
avoid heavy draws where possible.

On the AC side, yes, there is obviously 10 gauge exterior Romex-type
wire going from the hook-up to a small 30 amp fuse box which uses the
"shotgun cartridge" style of brass-ended fuses. They haven't blown in
the five years I've owned the boat. The two pairs of AC outlets on the
boat are properly grounded, but the Romex is beginning to get
tired-looking. When I get a new panel next year I will replace it with
10 gauge marine wire because I want proper AC circuit breakers, a
hard-wired charger, a small inverter, full isolation and two extra
paired outlets, one in the V-berth so I can run power tools in the
anchor locker, and one in the nav station for a PC as we are getting
wireless networking at the YC and I like to download weather maps
before I cruise.

My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.

Hope this helps. I am learning as well and quite enjoying myself. I
won't miss those little glass fuses, I can tell you.

R.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:12:42 GMT, "MMC" wrote:

Rhys,
Have you come up with a model/plan for your LED lighting?

No, not other than replacing the cabin "spot" lights (the ones
primarily for reading placed over berths and so on) with the bayonet
style LEDs that cost $19 but are alleged to last 100,000 hours (I may
not last that long, so it's good to go for me!)

There was a guy
some time ago (in this newsgroup) who had used 12vdc LED trailer lighting (I
believe from JC Whitney) in his boat. It gave an amber glow and was mounted
under the decks on either side of the cabin. Looked good. That msg string
included some very high tech-high price options.
I might get string of those LEDs and experiment....

I think that's a great idea. Area lighting and spot or purpose
lighting on a boat are two different things. Generally, I have little
use for the former: if I have people over for drinks and nosh, a few
candles and maybe a kerosene lamp provide all the light and
"atmosphere" I require. Essentially, I am talking about cabin spots
for reading and maybe for the nav station.

Using LEDs for running lights is still an unknown quantity for me,
but I am considering equipping my Zodiac tender with an LED tricolour
run off the Honda OB alternator (magneto?), all of which is 12 VDC.
As I am under 10 HP, I don't legally require nav lights, but I prefer
to be seen as I use the calm late nights to plane around Toronto
Island, which is heavily trafficked with "disco boats".

R.

rhys wrote:

On 27 May 2004 07:54:14 -0700, (Michael
Sutton) wrote:


do they use 110v 12 gauge solid core "romex" like they do
for home installations for do they acutally use stranded wire
in conduit? I just can't see all the boat manufactureres going
to this expense.


Well, perhaps my experience will be instructive.


The panel is little metal toggle switch with glass fuse holders with a
common positive side. Most of the DC power lines are very narrow, 20
or 22 gauge, to a terminal block in the head and aft and forward to
running lights. I replaced all mast wires with 12 gauge to spreader
lights, steaming and deck lights and 14 gauge to trilight and anchor
light. All DC wiring is tinned and stranded.

Wow, what a difference. Wait until I upgrade the cabin wiring and
replace the panel. The only exception to this is perhaps I will leave
the cabin lights with the old wiring, which is not in bad condition,
if I switch from 12 VDC auto light bulbs to LEDs...the LEDs draw so
little it is hardly worth the effort of drawing the cables through
cabinetry, etc.

I also replaced the stern light wire with 16 gauge to the panel.
Again, a gratifying jump in brightness.

This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire.



--
the most committed always win

On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:06:08 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote:


This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire.

yes, I agree. Older boats seem to have "cheaped out" with wire runs,
and it's a no-brainer to get thicker wire--stranded is preferred--and
to see immediate results at the amp meter and the masthead.

R.

Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:


My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.


In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both
the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore
power system. This is potentially very dangerous.

The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words
metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and
apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone
opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise.

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.

And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said.

Sam,
That is really good advice, but I should add that a GFCI will also save very
serious electric corrosion if a leak should occur. Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line. Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection. Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard and any leak anywhere in that distribution
net will use your hull as the preferred return path. This will create severe
electric corrosion on your boat and you will never know why.
Steve
"Sam" wrote in message
news

Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:


My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.


In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both
the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore
power system. This is potentially very dangerous.

The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words
metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and
apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone
opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise.

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.

And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I
said.

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...


Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line.


To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct
violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never
pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it
wire this way it could create issues with the insurance.

You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to
separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity of
the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the
weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause
problems.

Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection.

Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you
could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then
make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in
water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't corroded
away.


Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard

Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying
that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path
through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true.

Rod

Rod,
I assure you that the earth as referenced by your hull is different than the
the copper plated steel stake at the distribution transformer. There are
rules in every country that prevent power entry equalization busses to be
much longer than a meter for very good reason. Please keep in mind that an
electric impulse propagates across a conductor at 2 nonoseconds per foot. In
a drag race, an electric pulse will travel to a closer point faster than a
further point, even without consideration of path quality. In that light,
ground is not ground the world around. In real life, there can be thousands
of volts in potential difference between two functioning earth references
and very often is. It is one of the reasons that a lightning strike a mile
away can zap all your appliances without striking your property. Ground
problems are very complex, difficult to analyse and very expensive to
resolve. Please also remember that wiring code only allows one reference to
earth in a building. It is illegal and downright unsafe to use water pipes
and other connections as well as the safety reference from the street.
However, a boat is significantly different. The water makes contact with the
earth across millions of square meters of surface. In comparison, the
distribution transformer has only the surface area of the ground rod to use
and I will point out that the quality of the connection is subject to rod
corrosion and the mineral content of the soil it contacts. It is not unusual
for the electric company to deposit hundred pound bags of salt around this
rod in areas of poor soil conductivity and rinse the salt into the soil with
water to help alleviate this problem. Commercial ships (and myself) use
isolation transformers to alleviate this corrosion risk. In that way the
electric energy is magnetically coupled aboard and no circuit reference
exists to the power net. As an individual, you are in control of your
electric domain and accept the responsibility of good practice and
maintenance of the boat wiring and the appliances you use. The question you
have to ask yourself is "Are you willing to accept the consequences of other
people's faults and stupidity?" I am not and I do not use the earth
connection at the dock.
Steve
"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...


Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line.


To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct
violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never
pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it
wire this way it could create issues with the insurance.

You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to
separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity
of
the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the
weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause
problems.

Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection.

Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you
could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then
make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in
water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't
corroded
away.


Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard

Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying
that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path
through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true.

Rod