Wow! You've just dropped all the way to MORON with that statement!

being a moron would be an improvement for schlackoff.

Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:


My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.


In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both
the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore
power system. This is potentially very dangerous.

The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words
metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and
apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone
opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise.

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.

And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I said.

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:40:09 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 23:05:13 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:


Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the
absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE
boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product
liability lawsuits".

Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot
of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability
lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being
successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC
rules.

You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability
suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by
doing it, they don't do it.

Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because
either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there
is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits
to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just
crimped.

Wow! You've just dropped all the way to MORON with that statement!

You can't defend your position with anything better than that? You're
finished.

Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make
sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the
expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where
they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits
are not a factor.

Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC
rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more
money to solder.

I'd love to see that.

Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will
confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer,
including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for
something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some
way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over
the competition. Just one will do...

Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in
their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if
any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying
that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and
supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as
you have claimed.

Like I said - provide ONE manufacturer who uses solder. If it was
superior, then some comapanies would solder, and use it as a sales
tool to demonstrate higher quality than their competitors. Hinkley
uses solder? Oyster uses solder? Swan? These companies would solder in
a heartbeat if it was better.

And like I said, specious argument since I'm not claiming any
manufactureres use solder. You can't seem to get that through your head
since you keep asking me to provide one. Ok, even though there is
probably some that do use solder, I'll agree with you and say that none
do. How about that?

Now, you provide at least ONE successful product liability lawsuit on a
boat manufacturer that was due to properly soldered and supported
connections. If you're claiming that's why they don't solder, you
should be able to back that claim up. Of couse, you can't. Because
it's wrong.

Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an
anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all
circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs,
noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever
dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring.

Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly
soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your
boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all
the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht
club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to
who's just blowing smoke.

Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc.

You are as anonymous as I am, or maybe even more so, and you have yet

You don't even know the meaning of the word anonymous? Sheesh!

to provide a contact at even ONE manufacturer who will support your
wild theories. If the whole world agrees with you, then surely you can
come up with ONE manufacturer? Nope, you can't!

Even though there probably are manufactures that solder their wiring,
I've already agreed several times (above and in previous post) that
manufactureres don't use solder on their wiring because I just don't
care to find any that do since it doesn't matter a single bit to my
argument that it's ok for *you* to solder your wiring as long as it's
done properly. How much more do you want then me agreeing that
manufacturers don't solder their wiring? Are you going to show your
lack of comprehension again and ask me yet another time to find ONE
manufacturer that solders?

Oh, and I wouldn't say that the whole world agrees with me. But the
ones who do a

1) ABYC allows soldered wiring on boats if it conformes to ABYC
E-8.15.19.

2) NASA allows soldered wiring on all vehicles (including the Space
Shuttle) and critical support system if it conforms to NSTS
5300.4(1D-2), NASA-STD-8739.3, or NHB 5300.4(3A-1).

3) US Navy allows soldered wiring on aircraft and ships if the joint is
properly made and supported. I've had cables made and installed on Navy
aircraft that used soldered connections between stranded wire and cup
pins which passed inspection since they were supported by a strain
relief built into the plug.

4) Calder

5) All of the marine surveyors I've personally dealt with who have
passed boats for insurance surveys that have at least some wiring
connections soldered.

Now it's your turn to provide a single lawsuit due to properly soldered
wiring. You've claimed that's why they don't solder so you should be
able to support that claim. Or show where a boat failed an insurance
survey due to properly soldered wiring. You've claimed a boat with
properly soldered wiring will fail an insurance survey so you should be
able to support that claim as well. Those are both specific allegations
you've made, both of which are unsubstantiated and just plain wrong.

I've shown you who agrees with me. Who agrees with you? Can you
provide a single shred of evidence to support your wild allegations?

Steve

Sam,
That is really good advice, but I should add that a GFCI will also save very
serious electric corrosion if a leak should occur. Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line. Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection. Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard and any leak anywhere in that distribution
net will use your hull as the preferred return path. This will create severe
electric corrosion on your boat and you will never know why.
Steve
"Sam" wrote in message
news

Hate to barge in but there is some potentially dangerous advice in a
post here. Apologies to the original poster but this is a bad idea:


My other suggestion, depending on the length of your boat, is to
install a second AC hook-up. Mine is in the cockpit and the 50 foot
cord must cross about 31 feet of deck, 5 feet of Zodiac, 6 feet of
dock finger and 4 feet of rise to get to the plug. Far better, I
think, would be to have a second plug at the bow
end...somewhere...allowing a shorter cord to be used and giving one
the opinion of docking in other slips stern in or bow in without
hauling too much or too little shore power cord. Less stuff on deck
that way as well.


In order to add a second shore power inlet, you would need to have both
the new and old inlets connected in parallel to each other via the shore
power system. This is potentially very dangerous.

The shore power inlets on boats feature male connections (in other words
metal prongs under the water tight lids). If you put two in parallel and
apply shore power to one inlet the prongs on the other are LIVE. Someone
opening the cover and touching a prong is going to get a surprise.

If you really DO intend to have two shore power inlets, they must be
switched so that only one can ever be "in circuit" at a time.

And, since I have already barged in he

Use tinned stranded wire for AC as well. No less than 14awg, bigger is
better. There are published guidelines for current capacity/distance
that should be followed, but bigger is better.

Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I
said.

"dazed and confuzed" wrote in message
...
wrote:


if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are
sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the
terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not
melt before the breaker trips.

AND both the wire and terminal were properly heated to the proper
temperature during soldering (no cold joints) AND the connection was free of
contaminants ( no old corroded wires or terminals)

In general, solder should not be used as a means of mechanical connection.

I am not familiar with the various codes and standards related to boats. I
am familiar with various codes and standards as related to standard industry
and household, primarily Underwriter's Laboratories (UL) and CSA. For these
safety agencies, no primary wires may be secure by means of solder alone.

Solder can give you a superior connection over crimp. In the event that the
connection is bad, however, a soldered connection can deteriorate very
quickly.

Rod

Sam,,
You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected. Just
have them in every circuit. You can also install a GFCI circuit breaker
which also protects that circuit. But in all, good advice.
Paul

"Sam" wrote in message
news snipped
Finally, install a GFCI for every AC outlet on the vessel. I got a
dramatic demonstration 2 years ago, when I stepped in a puddle from
showering (barefotot naturally) as I turned on an electrical device in
the head. The GFCI blew instantly. Now what do you suppose would have
happened to me if it hadn't popped?

GFCI's are cheap insurance. Beats waking up dead any day! They don't
stand up to salt water very well though. So if you cruise in salty air,
expect to replace once in a while. But GFCI's are cheap insurance as I
said.

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...


Secondly, when plugging
in to shore power, never connect the safety earth line.


To not connect the safety ground at the AC input plug would be in direct
violation of accepted wiring for boats. If wired that way it would never
pass survey and if a fire or accident happened and investigators found it
wire this way it could create issues with the insurance.

You could leave the boat wired properly if you modified the power cord to
separate out the ground wire. It would be a shame to break the integrity of
the outer jacket of the cordset, however. If this cord lays out in the
weather allowing water to penetrate the jacket may eventually cause
problems.

Instead use a line
to your boat earth for the safety connection.

Where does one get a good earth connection on a dock? I suppose that you
could drive a copper rod down into the ground beside your slip, and then
make a connection to it with enough service loop to allow for changes in
water level. You better inspect it often to assure that it hasn't corroded
away.


Remember, your hull will
always be a better earth connection than the one from the distribution
transformer for the pier or yard

Can you explain what you are saying here? It sounds like you are saying
that the path through the water to "ground" is always better than the path
through copper wire to "ground", which is certainly not true.

Rod

"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote...

You don't have to install a GFCI in every outlet. Just in the first
outlet of the circuit, the rest that are downstream will be protected.
Just
have them in every circuit.

ONLY if the GFCI outlet supports chaining, and ONLY if it is the first
outlet in the circuit and ONLY if it (the circuit and the GFCI) is wired
correctly!

Please give t a rest.

JAXAshby wrote:
Wow! You've just dropped all the way to MORON with that statement!


being a moron would be an improvement for schlackoff.

it would be an improvement for an H40 owner as well.

From: Rick
Date: 6/1/2004 8:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Please give t a rest.

JAXAshby wrote:
Wow! You've just dropped all the way to MORON with that statement!


being a moron would be an improvement for schlackoff.