On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:12:42 GMT, "MMC" wrote:

Rhys,
Have you come up with a model/plan for your LED lighting?

No, not other than replacing the cabin "spot" lights (the ones
primarily for reading placed over berths and so on) with the bayonet
style LEDs that cost $19 but are alleged to last 100,000 hours (I may
not last that long, so it's good to go for me!)

There was a guy
some time ago (in this newsgroup) who had used 12vdc LED trailer lighting (I
believe from JC Whitney) in his boat. It gave an amber glow and was mounted
under the decks on either side of the cabin. Looked good. That msg string
included some very high tech-high price options.
I might get string of those LEDs and experiment....

I think that's a great idea. Area lighting and spot or purpose
lighting on a boat are two different things. Generally, I have little
use for the former: if I have people over for drinks and nosh, a few
candles and maybe a kerosene lamp provide all the light and
"atmosphere" I require. Essentially, I am talking about cabin spots
for reading and maybe for the nav station.

Using LEDs for running lights is still an unknown quantity for me,
but I am considering equipping my Zodiac tender with an LED tricolour
run off the Honda OB alternator (magneto?), all of which is 12 VDC.
As I am under 10 HP, I don't legally require nav lights, but I prefer
to be seen as I use the calm late nights to plane around Toronto
Island, which is heavily trafficked with "disco boats".

R.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:06:08 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote:


This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire.

yes, I agree. Older boats seem to have "cheaped out" with wire runs,
and it's a no-brainer to get thicker wire--stranded is preferred--and
to see immediate results at the amp meter and the masthead.

R.

Actually the National Electrical Code is updated every three years, not
every year. While it does date back to the early years of the last century,
it has kept up to date with new materials and technology. As an example,
they added a section on recharging stations for electric powered cars some
time ago. There are sections on computer networks and wiring systems to
allow for the use of switching power supplies. ( They can overload the
neutral conductor.) Some areas do not 'adopt' the NEC as their standards.
The state of Oregon reviews it each issue, adds their own 'Adendum' and
adopts the package about six months after issue.

The NEC has been re-written to make itself more universally accepted. Some
foreign countries are considering using it for their requirements. It is far
from obsolete.

Rusty O

wrote:
SNIP
wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try
to find a new boat (ONE
boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's
called "product liability lawsuits".

BB

I suspect it`s called "cheaper to crimp than to solder".
Bob Larder

On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:30:44 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 01:04:37 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:52 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:38:12 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote:

Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you
cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone
has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is
going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out
and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no
bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job.

Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the
connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a
crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no.

Steve

Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has
been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no
marinas or yacht clubs, no financing.

Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed
insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed.
If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him
why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules
allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole
means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense.

ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical
connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so
located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the
solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than
1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.

Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one.

No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical
connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically
superior to a crimped joint.

I guess that's why the U.S. military doesn't use solder in any of it's aircraft
wiring.

And where did you hear that little tidbit of incorrect information? The
military and NASA both use soldered connections where appropriate.
There are MIL and NASA specs governing soldered connections. And while
engsol gave a good lesson in soldering connections in an offshoot
thread, if you want to see the NASA spec on soldered connections, it's
he

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/solder.htm

If you look at the part of the document in
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/sdr1922.pdf you'll see pictures of
acceptable soldered connection of a multistranded wire into a cup pin
termination. I know from personal knowledge that this kind of
connection is found on the inside of connectors on many military
aircraft. The connector has support for the wire at it's exit so there
is no strain or vibration at the stranded to solid wire junction.

And if it's properly supported, that
removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the
stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring
on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and
vibration on the solder junction.


The ABYC is currently revising their standards to eliminate soldering as
acceptable.

And where did you hear that?

I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring
will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite
the ABYC allowing it?

Because the insurance industry has it's own ideas about what it will and will
not insure. They don't always follow ABYC or any other independant standard,
although they certainley can if they feel like it. Insurance companies have a
direct interest in prohibiting anything which they known to be an unnecessary
risk.

Which is why they allow solder on a connection. Can you point to any
examples of a boat failing an insurance survey because of soldered
wiring where the connection followed the ABYC rules?

Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys
even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules.

So, all surveyors are competent, honest and have advanced knowledge in all areas
of boat construction? I have news for you. Surveyors, for the most part, are
yard bums who pass a 20 question multiple choice quiz and pay a fee to join a
"Surveyors Association". It's not easy to find a truly competent one.

And you expect these incompetent surveyors to notice soldered
connections and fail the boat because of it?

Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the
absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE
boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product
liability lawsuits".

Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot
of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability
lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being
successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC
rules. I'd love to see that.

Steve

I think it is maybe time to have a look at the bottom line in this thread.

If the electrical system is down, and you have no power to solder things, then
you are screwed if you have an all-soldered vessel. If it is all crimped or
screw terminals, then you can fix it and be on your way.

Nuff said (I hope!)

Steve "if it ain't fixable, it doesn't belong on board"
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

Does MacGregor count?

SV

wrote

Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will
confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY
manufacturer,
including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost
for
something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in
some
way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage
over
the competition. Just one will do...

BB

On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote:


Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the
absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE
boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product
liability lawsuits".

Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot
of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability
lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being
successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC
rules.

You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability
suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by
doing it, they don't do it.

Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because
either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there
is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits
to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just
crimped.

Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make
sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the
expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where
they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits
are not a factor.

Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC
rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more
money to solder.

I'd love to see that.

Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will
confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer,
including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for
something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some
way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over
the competition. Just one will do...

Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in
their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if
any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying
that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and
supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as
you have claimed.

Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an
anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all
circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs,
noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever
dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring.

Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly
soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your
boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all
the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht
club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to
who's just blowing smoke.

Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc.

Steve

I suspect it`s called "cheaper to crimp than to solder".
Bob Larder



you suspect wrong

sevie, you do NOT solder connection (in the context of boating), for soldered
connections fail. you crimp connection, then solder if you are looking for
corrosion protection

From: (Steven Shelikoff)
Date: 5/31/2004 7:05 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff)
wrote:


Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is
the
absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat
(ONE
boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called
"product
liability lawsuits".

Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot
of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability
lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being
successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC
rules.

You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product
liability
suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save
by
doing it, they don't do it.

Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because
either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there
is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits
to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just
crimped.

Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make
sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the
expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where
they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits
are not a factor.

Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC
rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more
money to solder.

I'd love to see that.

Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will
confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer,
including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for
something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in
some
way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage
over
the competition. Just one will do...

Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in
their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if
any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying
that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and
supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as
you have claimed.

Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an
anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all
circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs,
noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever
dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring.

Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly
soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your
boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all
the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht
club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to
who's just blowing smoke.

Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc.

Steve