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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Personnally, I don't think the solder melting is the problem. The problem
is the heat being generated in a defective solder joint and that heat is passed on to the connected wires. I've had to rebuild several power supplies where the breakers/fuses never tripped/popped until after the wire insulation melted off of the wires and the wires came in contact with each other or ground. Pass the crimpers please. Mike B USAF Retired 30 Year Electronics Tech. "dazed and confuzed" wrote in message ... wrote: On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:03:11 GMT, Dan Best wrote: I didn't know that. Why is it not safe? What problems can it cause? In some situations the wire could heat up enough to soften or even melt the solder before tripping a breaker. This could result in the joint coming apart, and the free ends could then contact something else, including a human. The other problem if the solder melts is that molten solder could drip and bridge two things that should not be bridged, or land on something flammable. These things don't happen a lot, but they have happend enough to be included in wiring and safety codes. Many codes relate to things that rarely occur, but have serious consequences when they DO occur. How often does a smoke detector have to save your life to be worthwhile? BB Thanks - Dan wrote: On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:47 -0500, dazed and confuzed wrote: QLW wrote: I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. Cost of assembly. It gets the boat out of the door, and it works long enough to last until the end of the warranty. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not melt before the breaker trips. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
so, you are a hill-billy idiot.
I refuse to get into useless debates based on absolutely ridicules assertions...so I'm going to stop right here and avoid the name calling that usually comes next. But I can give many examples that will prove the statement below completely unfounded. I solder all of the wires on trailers that I build (and I build a lot of them) and they are subjected to lots of movement and vibration and never fail. Sometimes the wires will get pulled apart but not the soldered joint. Huge numbers of soldered electronic equipment in high vibration service routinely last a lifetime without failure. The mechanical connection is far more likely to loosen, that's why we have loctite and NyLocks. Anyway, my participation in this thread is ended. It is obvious that Jax is more interested in "winning arguments" than in meaningful posts and in reading some of his past posts, name calling is next. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... Would you mind explaining exactly how a solder connection fails "under high load conditions" when the connection is soldered it lacks mechanical integrity. solder is soft and any chance of movement -- any, even walking on a floor near the equipment in a building -- loosens the connection until it eventualy fails. Even if after soldering the connection is clamped TIGHTLY with a mechanical clamp it eventually fails. If the connection is FIRST clamped TIGHTLY mechanically and _then_ soldered for corrosion protection all if right and holy. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I didn't know that. Why is it not safe? What problems can it cause?
soldered connections loosen and fail |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
These things don't happen a
lot, I have seen it. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
if a connection is properly engineered, I.E., the terminal and wire are
sized correctly, the breaker is sized correctly, and the post that the terminal is connected to is the correct size, then the solder will not melt before the breaker trips. it does not "melt", dude. it softens to the point that the connection fails, THEN it melts, because the connection is barely there. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Personnally, I don't think the solder melting is the problem
maybe you don't, but the informed opinion does. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Those that have done this
and not experienced a failure are simply lucky. and damned few in number |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
please don't quote me when you are quoting someone else.
JAXAshby wrote: I usually solder connector on my boat and have never found this to fail. I've never see this done but the manufacturers so there must be some negative reason but I've not found it. solder connections fail under high load conditions mechanical stress loads or electrical loads? -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Properly done, a crimp connection is
as good as a soldered joint. no. a crimp connection is ALWAYS better. Never, never, never, never is a soldered conection anywhere "as good as" a crimped connection. crimp first --and correctly -- for connection integrity, THEN solder if you wish for corrosion protection. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... NEVER solder an electrical connection within a vehicle or any machine that is subject to motion or vibration. The solder creates a stress concentration at the end of the solder, which in time will cause the wire to break right at the joint. That is why it should never be done. Those that have done this and not experienced a failure are simply lucky. Steve Generally I crimped and soldered all connections on my boat. IMO there is little motion or vibration of well supported wires within a boat's structure. HOWEVER (and this is a big one), I would NOT solder connections to wires that are attached to the engine, where there is significant vibration. I had an alternator output wire fail right at the end of the solder connection, which seemed to be an obvious fatigue failure. Could have been nasty if it hadn't broken cleanly away. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
In the real world nothing is perfect. You are betting your life on the
fact that a crimp is perfect as well. Most (not all) solder terminals have some sort of minimal mechanical connection to hold the conductor in the terminal until it is soldered. In Military aircraft, (some years ago in my experience) only soldered connections were approved. Only stranded wire was used, and a clip-on heatsink was used on a small (say 1/8 inch on #16 wire) area just outside the lug, so solder could not 'wick' into the rest of the stranded wire, which would degrade the vibration resistance of the wire. Inspectors had to see the soldered connection before sleeving was applied over the wire end and lug. Initially I thought this was a little over-conservative. Then I realized it was my friends from High School who were flying those F4's and at 500 MPH close to the ground those connections mattered. -- Regards, Terry King ...In The Woods In Vermont "The one who dies with the most parts LOSES! What do you need??" |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
In Military aircraft, (some years ago in my experience) only soldered
connections were approved. Are you sure? That is totally at various with ALL practises I have seen at anytime in the last 25 years in anything electrical. I have seen solder then crimp connections fail again and again, even though they were specifically forbidden. never saw a crimp then solder connection fail. crimp then solder is industry requirement, and has been for a very long time. there is a good reason for that. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
The fools are the ones that crimp and then solder.
really? It has been industry standard and required since the early 70's. there is a reason for that. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
JAXAshby wrote:
The fools are the ones that crimp and then solder. really? It has been industry standard and required since the early 70's. there is a reason for that. If the terminal is designed to be a crimp connection only, then soldering is adding a failure point. If the terminal is designed to be a solder joint, it usually has a low pressure crimp designed to hold the conductor and terminal together until the solder is applied. If you solder a high pressure crimp terminal, you weaken the crimp, allowing the terminal to "relax" at due to the heat of soldering. I think we are talking about 2 different types of terminals. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
dazed, you seem to be rather confuzed.
The fools are the ones that crimp and then solder. really? It has been industry standard and required since the early 70's. there is a reason for that. If the terminal is designed to be a crimp connection only, then soldering is adding a failure point. If the terminal is designed to be a solder joint, it usually has a low pressure crimp designed to hold the conductor and terminal together until the solder is applied. If you solder a high pressure crimp terminal, you weaken the crimp, allowing the terminal to "relax" at due to the heat of soldering. I think we are talking about 2 different types of terminals. -- the most committed always win |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
none wrote in message ...
what an absurd response! For the willing: solid wire is intended for Ac because the current travels thru the average of the thicknessas it alternates polarity. Dc travels on the outside (skin effect) due to mutual repulsion of the electrons; therefore stranded wire is best for high current loads of Dc. If the wire is well supported and larger than necessary for the rated current AND cheap enough vs stranded, then go with it. Otherwise, stranded. rick Skin effect is something that occurs at higher frequencies. At DC the electron distribution is equal through the CS of the wire. Skin effect can usually be ignored below 50 kHz. Rodney |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
wrote in message ... Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB Don't get people stressed out. Boats are NOT covered by the NEC - it is for buildings. I don't know about NFPA but I suspect they are also exempt there too. If you solder the connections in your boat, it is perfectly o.k. according to ABYC. Some stuff from ABYC (stuff snipped) http://www.cmsquick.com/tech_abyc_E.html : Wiring connections shall be designed and installed to make mechanical and electrical joints without damage to the conductors (E8&9). Twist-on connectors (wire nuts) shall not be used (E8&9). Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8) Solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used and which will produce a connection meeting the requirements of ABYC (E8.15.14 and E9.15.K4). -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
There have been a lot of good comments made - If you read them and research
the detail to qualify the information provided. My contribution to this discussion is the following URL to Boat US Electrical. There are many other good articles there as well. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
In fact, a well done solder
joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. considered by whom? certainly not the electrical industry at any time in the last 35 years. but, stveie, go ahead and solder. you know more than the pros do anyway. [geesh, what dumb clucks] |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I would think solid wire would be inadvisable for the same reason you don't
find it on automobiles. The vehicle moves and shakes, and in the case of many boats it flexes. This would cause the wire no mater how well secured to move and flex. It will inevitable succomb to metal fatigue over time. In some cases it might take years, but it will fail. In some cases it could fail fairly quickly. -- Public Fishing Forums Fishing Link Index www.YumaBassMan.com webmaster at YumaBsssMan dot com "Ytter" wrote in message ... I've heard different opinions what kind of wire is better for wiring boats.Could you give me some of your expertise? Thank You, Ytter |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
steveie, go stand in The Sophist Pig Corner.
On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
ABYC E-11 is being revised to eliminate the allowance for soldered/crimped terminations and specify crimped only. Charlie "Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Power wires should NEVER be soldered. It's against NEC and NFPA code for good reason. It's not safe. BB Don't get people stressed out. Boats are NOT covered by the NEC - it is for buildings. I don't know about NFPA but I suspect they are also exempt there too. If you solder the connections in your boat, it is perfectly o.k. according to ABYC. Some stuff from ABYC (stuff snipped) http://www.cmsquick.com/tech_abyc_E.html : Wiring connections shall be designed and installed to make mechanical and electrical joints without damage to the conductors (E8&9). Twist-on connectors (wire nuts) shall not be used (E8&9). Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8) Solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used and which will produce a connection meeting the requirements of ABYC (E8.15.14 and E9.15.K4). -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:52 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:38:12 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one. No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically superior to a crimped joint. And if it's properly supported, that removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and vibration on the solder junction. I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite the ABYC allowing it? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. In fact, it's a rare boat indeed that doesn't violate any of the ABYC rules. One that meets all of them is pretty much a gauranteed pass. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 18:12:42 GMT, "MMC" wrote:
Rhys, Have you come up with a model/plan for your LED lighting? No, not other than replacing the cabin "spot" lights (the ones primarily for reading placed over berths and so on) with the bayonet style LEDs that cost $19 but are alleged to last 100,000 hours (I may not last that long, so it's good to go for me!) There was a guy some time ago (in this newsgroup) who had used 12vdc LED trailer lighting (I believe from JC Whitney) in his boat. It gave an amber glow and was mounted under the decks on either side of the cabin. Looked good. That msg string included some very high tech-high price options. I might get string of those LEDs and experiment.... I think that's a great idea. Area lighting and spot or purpose lighting on a boat are two different things. Generally, I have little use for the former: if I have people over for drinks and nosh, a few candles and maybe a kerosene lamp provide all the light and "atmosphere" I require. Essentially, I am talking about cabin spots for reading and maybe for the nav station. Using LEDs for running lights is still an unknown quantity for me, but I am considering equipping my Zodiac tender with an LED tricolour run off the Honda OB alternator (magneto?), all of which is 12 VDC. As I am under 10 HP, I don't legally require nav lights, but I prefer to be seen as I use the calm late nights to plane around Toronto Island, which is heavily trafficked with "disco boats". R. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:06:08 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote: This has more to do with proper wire sizing than new wire or stranded wire. yes, I agree. Older boats seem to have "cheaped out" with wire runs, and it's a no-brainer to get thicker wire--stranded is preferred--and to see immediate results at the amp meter and the masthead. R. |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Actually the National Electrical Code is updated every three years, not
every year. While it does date back to the early years of the last century, it has kept up to date with new materials and technology. As an example, they added a section on recharging stations for electric powered cars some time ago. There are sections on computer networks and wiring systems to allow for the use of switching power supplies. ( They can overload the neutral conductor.) Some areas do not 'adopt' the NEC as their standards. The state of Oregon reviews it each issue, adds their own 'Adendum' and adopts the package about six months after issue. The NEC has been re-written to make itself more universally accepted. Some foreign countries are considering using it for their requirements. It is far from obsolete. Rusty O |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
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Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:30:44 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 01:04:37 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:52 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:38:12 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:07:20 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:34 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:34:52 GMT, wrote: Sorry, Bub, but you are completely wrong. All the applicable codes say you cannot solder those connections, and that's been the law for ages. As someone has already pointed out, if you solder all the connections in your boat, it is going to cost you big time at resale time, as it will all have to be ripped out and redone properly at SOMEBODY'S expense. The boat will be uninsurable and no bank will finance it either, with that hack wiring job. Soldering connections on a boat is perfectly fine as long as the connection is supported by a strain relief. In fact, a well done solder joint+strain relief is considered by most to be far superior to a crimped on connection. Solder without strain relief is a no-no. Steve Incorrect. A boat will not pass an insurance survey if the electrical system has been soldered. That's all that really matters. No insurability = no resale, no marinas or yacht clubs, no financing. Incorrect. Many boats with soldered electrical connections have passed insurance surveys and are in marinas all over as well as are financed. If your surveyor fails your boat due to soldered connections, ask him why he's going against ABYC electrical standards since the ABYC rules allow for soldered connections as long as the solder is not the sole means of mechanical support for the joint, which makes sense. ABYC E-8.15.19 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor. Your mistake to make, I guess. It will be an expensive one. No mistake at all. Anyone who knows anything about electrical connections will tell you that a properly soldered joint is electrically superior to a crimped joint. I guess that's why the U.S. military doesn't use solder in any of it's aircraft wiring. And where did you hear that little tidbit of incorrect information? The military and NASA both use soldered connections where appropriate. There are MIL and NASA specs governing soldered connections. And while engsol gave a good lesson in soldering connections in an offshoot thread, if you want to see the NASA spec on soldered connections, it's he http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/solder.htm If you look at the part of the document in http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/sdr1922.pdf you'll see pictures of acceptable soldered connection of a multistranded wire into a cup pin termination. I know from personal knowledge that this kind of connection is found on the inside of connectors on many military aircraft. The connector has support for the wire at it's exit so there is no strain or vibration at the stranded to solid wire junction. And if it's properly supported, that removes the one problem with a soldered joint, stress at the stranded/solid junction. That's why the ABYC allows for soldered wiring on boats if the there is another mechanical support to remove stress and vibration on the solder junction. The ABYC is currently revising their standards to eliminate soldering as acceptable. And where did you hear that? I guess we should ask you where you got the idea that soldered wiring will, in and of itself, cause a boat to fail an insurance survey despite the ABYC allowing it? Because the insurance industry has it's own ideas about what it will and will not insure. They don't always follow ABYC or any other independant standard, although they certainley can if they feel like it. Insurance companies have a direct interest in prohibiting anything which they known to be an unnecessary risk. Which is why they allow solder on a connection. Can you point to any examples of a boat failing an insurance survey because of soldered wiring where the connection followed the ABYC rules? Especially when many boats pass insurance surveys even if they don't meet all of the ABYC rules. So, all surveyors are competent, honest and have advanced knowledge in all areas of boat construction? I have news for you. Surveyors, for the most part, are yard bums who pass a 20 question multiple choice quiz and pay a fee to join a "Surveyors Association". It's not easy to find a truly competent one. And you expect these incompetent surveyors to notice soldered connections and fail the boat because of it? Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. I'd love to see that. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I think it is maybe time to have a look at the bottom line in this thread.
If the electrical system is down, and you have no power to solder things, then you are screwed if you have an all-soldered vessel. If it is all crimped or screw terminals, then you can fix it and be on your way. Nuff said (I hope!) Steve "if it ain't fixable, it doesn't belong on board" Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
Does MacGregor count?
SV wrote Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... BB |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by doing it, they don't do it. Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just crimped. Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits are not a factor. Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more money to solder. I'd love to see that. Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as you have claimed. Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs, noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring. Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to who's just blowing smoke. Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc. Steve |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
I suspect it`s called "cheaper to crimp than to solder".
Bob Larder you suspect wrong |
Can I use Solid wire for rewiring sailboat if not WHY?
sevie, you do NOT solder connection (in the context of boating), for soldered
connections fail. you crimp connection, then solder if you are looking for corrosion protection From: (Steven Shelikoff) Date: 5/31/2004 7:05 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:19:50 GMT, wrote: On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:05:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Meanwhile, for those not completely glazed over - soldering boat wiring is the absolutely wrong thing to do. This is nothing new. Try to find a new boat (ONE boat) wired from the factory using solder. You won't. HINT: It's called "product liability lawsuits". Wrong. It's called "skilled labor intensive", which costs a whole lot of money. If you're claiming it's because of product liability lawsuits, you should be able to find an example of a boatmaker being successfully sued because of soldered wiring that followed the ABYC rules. You aren't very bright, are you? Companies do things to avoid product liability suits. If they know something will potentially cost them more that they save by doing it, they don't do it. Talk about not being very bright, that statement makes no sense because either way they go, soldered according to ABYC rules or crimped, there is no danger of product liability lawsuits. The only danger of lawsuits to them is if the wiring was not done properly, either soldered or just crimped. Even if product liability was an issue, that statement would only make sense if they were doing something more expensive in order to avoid the expense of a product liability lawsuit. That's not the case here, where they're doing something less expensive and product liability lawsuits are not a factor. Did you find any lawsuits due to soldered connections that meet ABYC rules? Didn't think so. They don't solder because it costs them more money to solder. I'd love to see that. Please provide me with an email contact at ONE boat manufacturer that will confirm that they use solder for wiring boats. This can be ANY manufacturer, including those who build multi-million dollar custom yachts where cost for something like this is not a consideration at all, and if it was better in some way, would be used as a sales tool and touted as a feature, and advantage over the competition. Just one will do... Specious, since I'm not claiming that boat manufactures use solder in their general wiring connections. In fact, I would be very surprised if any do so since it so much greater in skilled labor cost. I'm saying that it's perfectly ok to do so if the joint is properly done and supported, and will not cause your boat to fail an insurance survey as you have claimed. Let's see here, on one side we have the unsupported ramblings of an anonymous poster saying that soldering wiring joints is a no-no in all circumstances. On the other side we have the ABYC rules, NASA specs, noted authors such as Nigel Calder, and every marine surveyor I've ever dealt with who have no problem with properly soldered wiring. Until you can find just ONE cite supporting your claim that properly soldered wiring (meeting ABYC rules, NASA specs, etc.) will cause your boat to fail an insurance survey and cause you to have to rip out all the wiring and replace it before being allowed into a marina or yacht club, I think the informed reader can make their own decision as to who's just blowing smoke. Again, anonymous poster vs. ABYC, NASA, Calder, etc. Steve |
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