On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:20:23 -0500, "johnagner"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
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I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
suggested i buy one with an outboard.

The only good thing about an old outboard is that if it's stuffed it's
easy to throw away. They are actually more higly tuned and stressed
than most inboards. 2 strokes in particular are out of favour and
parts could be a bitch.

You need to get the motor checked out jusy like any other mach
purchase. IKn fact if the car breaks down, you walk home....

i'd use it in a new jersey bay, for
some pleasure boating and perhaps a little waterskiing. I've seen good
prices

Yerr.........welll?

on old aluminum vhull starcraft boats from the 60s and 70s. would
such a boat be a good buy,

since aluminum doesn't deteriorate like
fiberglass,

crap. Corrosion. Weld cracking under flex. I make a generalisation in
big way. Fglass deteriorates, but sort of "spreads it" Points IMO kill
boats. Look at old wood boats. They get by because the problems are
small and spread, and people are willing to fiorgive and fix.

I have a kayak that is now 44 years old. The fibreglass is fine,
although the gelcoat is crazed. It's the joins and seams that are
stuffed. Many boat hulls have no seams. The kayak does because they
had to join two halves. Al does.

Are the star craft riveted or welded? Back then welding alum was
hmmmm...

If riveted, forget it. Read leaks, almost like a solid wood boat. If
welded and that old, they may well have been experimenting.

Where are you? We had a Star Boats in Western Australia who were
pioneers in alum building, and I remember a lecture by their chief
welder that impressed me "back in the 70s". But then, it was still new
stuff. We were all saying "alum.....He was a GURU.

and since these boats seem to go pretty fast with a 90-110 hp
outboard.

and may leak like a sieve.


please email replies to

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..........no I'm not!
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Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

I second what Nick said,
I own 2 boats, an aluminium side console fishing boat and a fibreglass
speedboat. Whoever tells you fibreglass is no good is offering you useless
unfounded advice. They both have their pros and cons. Weigh both sides for
yourself. Speak to a dealer who sells/specializes in both. From experience,
maintenance and durability standpoints, I'll never buy aluminium again.
Heres why. If you plan on never hitting anything while underway then
metal is a safe bet (these same people also bet they will never be involved
in a car accident!). Otherwise, you'll end up like I did, with a very large
dent in the hull. Yes, It happens to even the best of us. Hitting a tree
stump at 25mph can cause severe damage to aluminium that is not easily
repaired, whereas fibreglass can usually be spot repaired in this type of
circumstance (if there is even any damage more then a scratch for that
matter). Poor welds can deteriorate and become weak, leading in turn to
excessive flex and weakened hull integrity. In severe cases, seams can come
apart from vibration, riveted hulls are worse. Inevitably, this in turn
leads to leaks. Another common issue is galvanic corrosion. It tends to be
greater on aluminium boats then fibreglass due to the metal to water to
metal contact. Some rattle and are irrefutably nosier then fibreglass
because of the nature of metals conductivity to noise, save maybe the more
expensive fishing rigs (which can be rather quiet), but that's not what you
are looking for. Aluminium is not easy to keep shiny, fibreglass is not any
easier.
In some respects being lighter then fibreglass is a benefit. They need
less power to achieve the same performance as a comparably sized glass hull
so in turn will probably save $ on fuel (smaller motor). But this can also
be a bit of an annoyance being lighter. If you plan on operating in anything
more then 1-2 foot seas you'll see what I mean.
Fibreglass is heavier so the boat may not toss around in heavier seas,
but, more weight means more motor which equals more $ all around. Osmosis
can be an issue. Gelcoats fade and scratch and require continual upkeep
(yearly) to maintain that glossy shine.
As for outboard vs. I/O? Personally as one who has owned and worked on
both, The ease of outboard maintenance compared to I/O is unparalleled. To
rebuild my powerhead I can have it removed and ready for the machine shop in
1 hour, I challenge even the best marine mechanic to match that with an I/O.
It is quite an ordeal, and not something you can do in your own garage.
General up keep and maintenance is easier to do on an outboard in my
opinion, but you need to know what you are doing. I/O's are basically
automotive engines converted for marine use which in itself has pros and
cons. Winterizing is easier on an outboard and pound for pound delivers more
torque and horsepower the average I/O when hp to weight ratio is considered.
As mentioned earlier, they have their downside too though. They are
nosier and can be finicky. They're confusing and messy to some when mixing
oil with gas and if you forget the oil.....guess what, bye bye motor. Oil
injection is not any safer, I have heard of and seen countless cases where
the injection pump failed and the engine was oil starved causing severe
cylinder scoring. These are just a few of the tidbits of info to help you
get started in making your decision.
If you are new to boating, and considering buying an old boat, before
you lay your hard earned $ for a downpayment- Do yourself a favour....find a
local marine mechanic, pay him to do a once over on your perspective
purchase. There are countless hidden areas not discussed here that can turn
into financial disasters. Worse still, is finding out one fine evening when
out with the family out on the water and miles from shore. The sun sets....
the motor goes quiet.... and you discover then and there, you have a
problem. Hope this helps.

regards
Bryan

Motors seem to be the most important thing when you get involved in
boats.It really sucks when they quit on the water,a big body of water
or a large tangle of rivers and backwaters seem amazingly similar to a
large empty desert when it happens.Life is too short to fork around
with old motors,it's better to just kick the dog and beat the wife to
get that part over with and then buy a new or slightly used one that
won't give you any trouble.Motor,I mean,not wife or dog.
Next in importance, to my mind, is a trailor.If you are using
salt water,Aluminum is best,galvanized works and a painted one
will last about 2 days if you're careful.
Hulls seem to be the easiest thing to acquire.Forget wood unless
you like puttering around a lot or have a covered place to store one
and it's in good shape to begin with and you like puttering around a
lot anyway.I don't know much about metal boats.Fiberglass itself will
last till the cows come home but the encapsulated wood (like in the
floor(deck) or especially the transom) has a very good chance of
having gone to Hell a long time ago with no intensions of returning.
All in all it's very easy to blow a wad of money on a boat that
might very easily leave you broke, stranded, ****ed off,in dire
straights, divorced or at the very least with a big pile of useless
crap in the driveway.

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:57:43 +0800, Old Nick wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:20:23 -0500, "johnagner" vaguely
proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
suggested i buy one with an outboard.


....and I disagree with most of what Nick said.

Here on the West Coast, where there's lots of things to hit, welded-aluminum
boats are de rigeur for commercial boats (fishing, commuter, etc.). They just
last and last (but they aren't cheap, don't look great, and sound wierd). As for
rivited aluminum: half the backyards in BC have a rivited-aluminum skiff tucked
away somewhere. The one I have is 1975, and it's still leakproof despite being
thrown around, dragged over rocks and gravel, etc.

Old outboards seem to never die. I've had several over 20 years old (my current
one is a 1989 Johnson) and they seem to just keep running (koff!koff! they
DO smoke a lot!). Not much to go wrong with an old 2-stroke...

So yeah, an aluminum boat with an old outboard is a great way to get into
boating. Just make sure you have an alternate way home (kicker motor, electric,
oars...) and don't go too far until you're sure the boat is reliable.

And DO have the boat and especially the motor checked out by an "expert" before
you buy.

Lloyd Sumpter
"The Tin Boat" Mirrocraft 12

Hi Lloyd,
From the sounds of it you have quite a substantial amount of faith in
the strength of aluminium hulls. To compare aluminium commercial fishers
with "backyard skiffs" is somewhat akin to comparing apples and hammers
though wouldn't you agree?
Heres a little challenge to affirm or refute your faith in those riveted
hulls you can try if you're ever bored and have a little jalopy you don't
care much about. Word to the wise though, do not try this far from shore.
Take a large piece of firewood, spray paint it neon orange for
visibility and float it in the water. Back track a ways and ram it full
speed, in similar fashion an unsuspecting boater might accidentally hit a
similar piece of driftwood while underway. Try to ensure you reach it doing
cruise speeds (20-30 mph).
Until you actually see what this type of an impact does to a "backyard
skiff," holding them to such false high esteem would lead one to believe
they are safer then they really are. I have proof to give me reason to
believe otherwise. Okay okay I know it doesn't happen every day, but it does
happen, it happened to me so it could just as easily happen to anyone.
Perhaps aluminium hulls don't mind being "dragged over rocks and gravel"
when being beached, but then again neither does my canoe. It, however, is a
far cry from the security I feel when bumping something unexpectedly in my
fibreglass hull (to a point). I still say glass is the way.

regards
Bryan

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:07:32 -0800, "Lloyd Sumpter"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
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Here on the West Coast, where there's lots of things to hit, welded-aluminum
boats are de rigeur for commercial boats (fishing, commuter, etc.). They just
last and last (but they aren't cheap, don't look great, and sound wierd).

But were they built 30-40 years ago?

As for
rivited aluminum: half the backyards in BC have a rivited-aluminum skiff tucked
away somewhere. The one I have is 1975, and it's still leakproof despite being
thrown around, dragged over rocks and gravel, etc.

Well I have a riveted aluminium ruinabout that I got "for a good
price". I don't know how old it is. It's a bloody mess. A real
"project". It's way overbuilt in the sheeting, and too heavy. But
every rivet leaks. I learned to hate my wife for a while, because I
held the dolly while she belted the rivets, trying to seel them. It
only partially worked. It really needs either welding or completely
re-riveting.

So yeah, an aluminum boat with an old outboard is a great way to get into
boating. Just make sure you have an alternate way home (kicker motor, electric,
oars...) and don't go too far until you're sure the boat is reliable.

And DO have the boat and especially the motor checked out by an "expert" before
you buy.

But "at the right price" this can become uneconomical IMO, unless you
know a mate who is (a) really up with it (b) brave enough to recommend
you a boat!
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?