Interesting ideas Terry.

Maybe it would be better to simply start with the diesel engine, since
it can already tolerate the full lean-burn scenario. Then install a
second injector in the cylinder, timed to inject water, later than the
fuel nozzle. Hopefully, the incoming water wouldn't quench the flame.
The problem may be to get the combustion done, early enough to give time
for water injection to follow and water evaporation to occur.

bob

Terry K wrote:
By melting the main bearings? Fouling the rings? Burning the valves?
Coking up the combustion chamber? Dissolving the plasic intake
manifold, causing lean, hot combustion, burning holes in the piston
domes? By melting the fuel pump rubbers? Good old Ford engines, eh?

The flappy things are the reed valves, which admit fuel air mix to the
crankcase, where it is compressed by the down stroke, then popped into
the combustion chamber through the intake port, and after chasing out
the exhaust, is compressed on the up stroke.

If they get leaky, compression can fall, and power can diminish, with
gas fumes puffing out of the carburator.

Some exhaust is retained, mixed with the charge, as is done in four
strokes with the egr valve, to reduce lean burn effects, like high
tempratures and NOx smog formation, by cooling and reducing efficiency
of the explosion.

Is it possible that if only spark plugs and valves and pistons and
rings and bearings like in a diesel could withstand a true lean burn
engine, with no monoxide discarded, that a little water injected after
perfect combustion would expand in a small combusted fuel charge, and
convert the internal combustion engine into an internally fired steam
engine, exhausting only hot carbonated water and uncombusted nitrogen?

Much heat energy is thrown out the tailpipe of "modern" i.c. engines.
The exhaust should be at about 213 degrees farenheit, not 1200.The
exhaust should be just hot enough to keep injected water as high
pressure steam, pulling all the power out of the phase change cycle. A
resonant exhaust would reduce it's gas volume by causing the exhaust
steam to condense into water just after exiting the combustion chamber,
helping to scavenge the cylinder.

The temperature variations on each cycle is what kills this design, and
the requirement for precise water injection timing and quantity. You
would need a tiny hemispherical combustion chamber in the centre of the
piston dome for the fuel, and large displacement to maximise the
steaming part of the cycle. As the water boils, it increases the
pressure while cooling the mix, because water boiled expands to 1700
times it's volume as a gas, while absorbing heat. However, the
combustion, at high compression, would still generate NOx unless it's
combustion could be kept cool enough to prevent it, by heat sinking the
initial combustion by the proximity of internal metal masses of the
engine, which would contribute to the boiling of the water injected.

Golf ball dimples on head and piston dome?

So goes the age old story of the secret "water burning" engine
suppressed so many years ago by those opposed to efficiency in gasoline
engines, also known as petroleum wholesalers.

Too hard for Ford? Who owns Ford?

Terry K

RW Salnick wrote:

Interesting ideas Terry.

Maybe it would be better to simply start with the diesel engine, since
it can already tolerate the full lean-burn scenario. Then install a
second injector in the cylinder, timed to inject water, later than the
fuel nozzle. Hopefully, the incoming water wouldn't quench the flame.
The problem may be to get the combustion done, early enough to give time
for water injection to follow and water evaporation to occur.

especially if you used the exhaust to pre heat the water to JUST below
boiling temp for whatever the pressure is for the cylinder pressure at
the moment of injection.

bob

Terry K wrote:

By melting the main bearings? Fouling the rings? Burning the valves?
Coking up the combustion chamber? Dissolving the plasic intake
manifold, causing lean, hot combustion, burning holes in the piston
domes? By melting the fuel pump rubbers? Good old Ford engines, eh?

The flappy things are the reed valves, which admit fuel air mix to the
crankcase, where it is compressed by the down stroke, then popped into
the combustion chamber through the intake port, and after chasing out
the exhaust, is compressed on the up stroke.

If they get leaky, compression can fall, and power can diminish, with
gas fumes puffing out of the carburator.

Some exhaust is retained, mixed with the charge, as is done in four
strokes with the egr valve, to reduce lean burn effects, like high
tempratures and NOx smog formation, by cooling and reducing efficiency
of the explosion.

Is it possible that if only spark plugs and valves and pistons and
rings and bearings like in a diesel could withstand a true lean burn
engine, with no monoxide discarded, that a little water injected after
perfect combustion would expand in a small combusted fuel charge, and
convert the internal combustion engine into an internally fired steam
engine, exhausting only hot carbonated water and uncombusted nitrogen?

Much heat energy is thrown out the tailpipe of "modern" i.c. engines.
The exhaust should be at about 213 degrees farenheit, not 1200.The
exhaust should be just hot enough to keep injected water as high
pressure steam, pulling all the power out of the phase change cycle. A
resonant exhaust would reduce it's gas volume by causing the exhaust
steam to condense into water just after exiting the combustion chamber,
helping to scavenge the cylinder.

The temperature variations on each cycle is what kills this design, and
the requirement for precise water injection timing and quantity. You
would need a tiny hemispherical combustion chamber in the centre of the
piston dome for the fuel, and large displacement to maximise the
steaming part of the cycle. As the water boils, it increases the
pressure while cooling the mix, because water boiled expands to 1700
times it's volume as a gas, while absorbing heat. However, the
combustion, at high compression, would still generate NOx unless it's
combustion could be kept cool enough to prevent it, by heat sinking the
initial combustion by the proximity of internal metal masses of the
engine, which would contribute to the boiling of the water injected.

Golf ball dimples on head and piston dome?

So goes the age old story of the secret "water burning" engine
suppressed so many years ago by those opposed to efficiency in gasoline
engines, also known as petroleum wholesalers.

Too hard for Ford? Who owns Ford?

Terry K



--
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs
22:3

Reply: The idea is to get the exhaust temp down, so less heat is lost
in the engine cycle, so your observation is only indirectly helpful.
Sorry. Thanks.

For the previous haranguer: I can't drink caffeinated beverages, due to
pancreatitis. I used to drink 10 -15 cups a day, but had to quit. Part
of the problem is that all that caffeine causes dehydration, and
thirst, which is only made worse by caffeine, which being a stimulant
also causes spasms in the pancreatic duct sphincter, I figure. I'm
always this hyper, sometimes called enthusiastic.

To continue, the boiling temperature will be affected by cylinder
pressure, and it may be that it won't work for that reason. A
thermodynamacist might be able to say. Where's all the big mouth
mathemeaticians that regularly abuse each other around here?

Yes timing is important. The small, lean fuel explosion must be quick
and complete, so the water injection can have some time to do it's
magic. The preheated water idea seems relevant, if you can preheat the
water somewhat before injecting it, so the internal combustion steam
engine would still want some external combustion happening, but the
actual amount of water might be really small.

How come some research body doesn't offer a little of the essential
data, as they MUST have tried this? I can't find any data on the net.

Maybe this really is is my idea?

Terry K

Terry K wrote:
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs
22:3

Reply: The idea is to get the exhaust temp down, so less heat is lost
in the engine cycle, so your observation is only indirectly helpful.
Sorry. Thanks.

Except that you cannot have condensation in the cylinder, or you'll
waste energy pumping it out (and you'll never get it all out, and
eventually raise the compression due to the water in the cylinder, and
either break a rod or wrist pin or blow the head gasket.) Water isn't
compressible. You'd have to keep the cylinder temp above the
condensation point.

If you use this exhaust heat to preheat the incoming water, you'll not
waste it. Otherwise you have to use the heat of combustion to heat the
incoming water charge to get it to turn to steam. Save the BTU's!

For the previous haranguer: I can't drink caffeinated beverages, due to
pancreatitis. I used to drink 10 -15 cups a day, but had to quit. Part
of the problem is that all that caffeine causes dehydration, and
thirst, which is only made worse by caffeine, which being a stimulant
also causes spasms in the pancreatic duct sphincter, I figure. I'm
always this hyper, sometimes called enthusiastic.

To continue, the boiling temperature will be affected by cylinder
pressure, and it may be that it won't work for that reason. A
thermodynamacist might be able to say. Where's all the big mouth
mathemeaticians that regularly abuse each other around here?

Yes timing is important. The small, lean fuel explosion must be quick
and complete, so the water injection can have some time to do it's
magic. The preheated water idea seems relevant, if you can preheat the
water somewhat before injecting it, so the internal combustion steam
engine would still want some external combustion happening, but the
actual amount of water might be really small.


How come some research body doesn't offer a little of the essential
data, as they MUST have tried this? I can't find any data on the net.

Maybe this really is is my idea?

It's actually a good idea, and it would be (probably) fairly efficient,
but you'll have issues with erosion of the cylinder and other metal
parts. Perhaps ceramic coating??

Terry K



--
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3