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Polyester or Epoxy?
I guess what I should have said was, there should not have been any blush
to cause the failure in the first place, of course if it is left on the work there will be little or no bond at all with what ever is applied on top. This is not a failure of the product, but in the application. -- From the rocky shores of the Skykomish river David Bosworth http://www.premier1.net/~daveb/ Barry Palmer wrote in message ... I investigated the accident, and cut out a portion of the joint, and it probably was amine blush, as the tabbing had contamination from sand and silt glued already on it at the bad joint, unlikely to have been in the joint when it was first assembled. I now have builders put a doubler tab on this critical joint, that is 3 times as wide, a small addition of weight for a lot of idiot proofing. Subject: Polyester or Epoxy? From: "David Bosworth" Date: Sat, Jan 17, 2004 10:42 AM Message-id: Hi Barry I would have to say that poor skills and bad work practice caused the failure of the tabbing , not the amine blush of the epoxy. The first BIG mistake the builder made was not following the designers specs for construction to the letter. The second stupid move was not reading the instructions for use of the product he chose to substitute or being the least bit familiar with it. I bet he made alot more mistakes too. scary -- From the rocky shores of the Skykomish river David Bosworth http://www.premier1.net/~daveb/ Barry Palmer wrote in message ... I have had hundreds of my customers using polyester resins on my Sevtec surface skimmer hulls without difficulty, and a few using epoxy, against my advice, with difficulty. In one case, amine blush of the epoxy caused the failure of tabbing that held some hull panels together and the result of using a brake, Yes, a brake on a surface skimmer, at about 35mph, caused the hull bottom to peel off, fortunately with no significant injuries, even though one person of three aboard went through the hole in the bottom and came up treading water behind the craft. Epoxy is very critical in mix ratio, and that is why scales or proportional pumps are used, while polyester catalysis is easily done with a small graduate cylinder, and variations of mix ratio of 20%, which would certainly spell disaster with epoxy, are of no concern with polyester. Some structures do benefit from epoxy, but if the structure strength or stiffness is governed by the glass, not the resin, epoxy may be a waste, except in long term exposure to warm climate salt water. Subject: Polyester or Epoxy? From: (Backyard Renegade) Date: Thu, Jan 15, 2004 3:00 PM Message-id: (Ron Thornton) wrote in message ... Bruce, The "ordinary" people are the ones that can best justify epoxy because the quantity they typically us is small compared to the production user. To answer your question about why to use epoxy instead of poly is, that it makes a better repair. Regards, Ron I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. But that is really not even much of a factor anymore. To build a 12 foot skiff with flotation and proper materials, it is going to cost you $250.00 on materials and hardware alone (assuming exterior plywood hull), and just for ha ha's, say $25 for a set of plans. If you use poly instead of epoxy, you might save $25 to $30 bucks max on the whole build and more times than not, I have seen first time builders end up using 2-3 times more poly than the plan would call for. The learning curve for mixing poly is treacherous, (bring a good scale and a calculator too) especially to the home builder that may be building outdoors, or in a non conditioned barn, tent, etc. Let me take a minute for anyone who is not clear about mixing the two products. With polyester, you must first calculate your catalyst ratio. So many ounces of resin, to so many drops of catalyst. This mixture is not only very delicate, but it changes depending on ambient temp, humidity, how fast you want things to cure and the required differences in the catalyst mixtures is very minute, and are based on the starting formula plus the users best guess or experience of how to alter that formula to suit the conditions at the time. Any very slight miscalculation in the mix or even how many clouds will pass over during the application can cause total havoc resulting in a slimy hot slop all over your boat that is extremely difficult to remove (think half hardened plastic mixed with cold roofing tar), that is to hard to scrape, and to soft to sand, or a fast kick which catches you with only half of your glass saturated, or just gobs up thicker and thicker as you try to catch up and save something. In both cases the only solution is a lot of elbow grease and lot's of wasted time and sand paper, scrapers, and then a re-application. With Epoxy, the cure rate is also dependant on the temp and humidity of the work area, but not nearly as fast or as radical. Mixing is done with calibrated pumps, something like one pump of resin to one pump of hardener. If you want a faster cure, substitute a "fast" hardener, if slower is your style or a bigger area to do in warmer weather, use a slower hardener, no calculators, no precision scales, no guesswork at all. If your pumps are working properly, and you don't get lazy mixing, even mistakes will harden nicely to be ground or sanded off. One extreme case (admittedly the most extreme I am aware of) was a couple of years ago when I came in very late by e-mail on a build of "Diablo", a 15 foot Bolger type skiff. The plan calls for 2 1/2 gallons of resin. This guy had a terrible summer of heat and cold, never really got the mixtures down in his one build. He spent literally dozens of hours scraping and sanding and just throwing out resin that either kicked to fast, or not at all. He ended up using 11 gallons of poly on the build at a total cost of over $200 for resin alone. Not to mention lost thickeners, thinners, brushes, sand paper, scrapers, time, time, time, time, time... I will stop now, but he has since built another boat, but this time he used epoxy, no problems. Now I don't expect any first timer to build Diablo with 2 1/2 gallons of resin, but certainly 3-3 1/2 should be the max. One final comment. I do not know what the original poster should do, I have no experience there, I don't do restores ;-) I also do realize that poly has it's place in composite shops where big lay-up is done or for molded parts, but somehow this thread seemed to get hijacked to my area so I thought I would chime in here. So this has been my advice, take if for what you paid. Scotty from SmallBoats.com Barry Palmer, for A HREF="http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/skmr.html"Sevtec BRBR Barry Palmer, for A HREF="http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/skmr.html"Sevtec/A |
Polyester or Epoxy?
Well we all hear quite a bit about the evils and wonders of both
polyester and epoxy. But what about vinylester? Any one ever use that? I'm curious because I saw a vinylester/kevlar canoe prototype by Mad River Canoes that was 20 years old, light as a feather and showed hardly a scratch though it had been dragged through gravel for years SteveJ Richard Lamb wrote in message ... Ron Thornton wrote: Hey Richard, just out of curiosity for the polyester crowd, how many aircraft builders, hobby and commercial do you know of that ust polyester? regards, Ron I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. Not a single one anymore... Even most of the kit manufacturers have changed over to epoxy. OTOH, there is a growing use of vinyl ester resin. It is catalized and works a lot like polyester, but with better chemical resistance and much better physical properties. Richard |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
... "Meindert Sprang" ) writes: I would think that counting drops is a very unreliable method. the drop size would be very dependant on the viscosity of the calalyst, right? not so it's noticeable. one drop of catalyst for every 1/2 teaspoon of resin. Exactly! I have at least three sizes of teaspoons in my kitchen drawer..... Which one is right? :-) Meindert |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
... no argument there. the question is when do you NEED the superior qualities of epoxy? Well, that's simple. I once tried to bond two pieces of mahogany together, using glass mat and polyester. After curing, I could peel the stuff off, something that I have never been able to do when using epoxy and cloth. So I guess this is where you NEED epoxy. Meindert |
Polyester or Epoxy?
SteveJ wrote:
Well we all hear quite a bit about the evils and wonders of both polyester and epoxy. But what about vinylester? Any one ever use that? I'm curious because I saw a vinylester/kevlar canoe prototype by Mad River Canoes that was 20 years old, light as a feather and showed hardly a scratch though it had been dragged through gravel for years SteveJ well, in aircraft, Vinyl ester has become popular as a replacement for polyester. One of the chief benefits is that vinyl ester is not affected by the many solvents in auto gas. Polyester and many epoxies will leach out in time and start leaking. That's considered a bad thing, usually... Richard |
Polyester or Epoxy?
David Bosworth wrote:
I guess what I should have said was, there should not have been any blush to cause the failure in the first place, of course if it is left on the work there will be little or no bond at all with what ever is applied on top. This is not a failure of the product, but in the application. -- Im curious if using peel ply is a common technique in boat building? This is a light layer of dacron or cheap polyester fabric placed over the wet layup. When cured, the peel ply is "peeled" off leaving a clean raw surface ready for the next lamination. Takes the blush off too. Richard |
Polyester or Epoxy?
*you* can say epoxy is necessary all you want but *you* just don't know.
you might think you are qualified but you don't have any application data to support your preference. what you have is material characteristics data and anecdotal application tales. before this question can be settled someone will have to do application testing. I doubt anyone would be interested. let me give you an example. the material characterisitcs of different paints are known, but the performance of different paints under different conditons are not. that is why the Post Office has to paint test mail boxes with the different paints and leave them outside for years to see how they perform. as an engineer with knowledge of the design and analysis of experiments you'll appreciate its more complicated than just painting and putting them outside. its not just the materials characteristics that matter. it is the combination of materials under varying conditions. polyester lives. long live polyester. Ron Thornton ) writes: No William, the question is are you qualified to make an informed decision as to whether poly is good enough. I think not because I like many others here, none of use having any interest in selling epoxy that I know of, have worked with this stuff professionally for years at a technical and engineering level and I doubt that any of us would be willing to just look at all but the most obvious applications and know whether epoxy was needed instead of polyester. You can say poly is good enough all you want but the truth is that you don't really know. All we are saying is that with todays price difference it is more affordable than ever to go with epoxy and add an additional margin to a repair or build. please go back and re-read what I wrote. epxoy doubles the cost of a small boat. epoxy has been so overpromoted that people use it to sheath boats that would be fine just painted. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
the materials characteristics of vinylester are between polyester and
epoxy: stength, flexibility, thermal stability, etc. I think Dave Gerr gives the numbers in "Elements of Boat Strength". SteveJ ) writes: Well we all hear quite a bit about the evils and wonders of both polyester and epoxy. But what about vinylester? Any one ever use that? I'm curious because I saw a vinylester/kevlar canoe prototype by Mad River Canoes that was 20 years old, light as a feather and showed hardly a scratch though it had been dragged through gravel for years SteveJ Richard Lamb wrote in message ... Ron Thornton wrote: Hey Richard, just out of curiosity for the polyester crowd, how many aircraft builders, hobby and commercial do you know of that ust polyester? regards, Ron I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. Not a single one anymore... Even most of the kit manufacturers have changed over to epoxy. OTOH, there is a growing use of vinyl ester resin. It is catalized and works a lot like polyester, but with better chemical resistance and much better physical properties. Richard -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:
Exactly! I have at least three sizes of teaspoons in my kitchen drawer..... Which one is right? :-) are they metric or British teaspoons? hint: turn over and look for country of manufacture. if Japan, China, Tiwan, or Korea don't use. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... no argument there. the question is when do you NEED the superior qualities of epoxy? Well, that's simple. I once tried to bond two pieces of mahogany together, using glass mat and polyester. After curing, I could peel the stuff off, something that I have never been able to do when using epoxy and cloth. So I guess this is where you NEED epoxy. I don't think anyone would recommend polyester as an adhesive. However I think you'll find plastic resin or polyurethane cheaper than epoxy and all that is needed in a good many situtations, from laminating to screwed-and-glued chine battens. I use the least cost adhesvie for the job which means I have used epoxy in some situations. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
... David Bosworth wrote: I guess what I should have said was, there should not have been any blush to cause the failure in the first place, of course if it is left on the work there will be little or no bond at all with what ever is applied on top. This is not a failure of the product, but in the application. -- Im curious if using peel ply is a common technique in boat building? Fairly common, I think. Saves one from a helluvalot of sanding on a larger hull. Meindert |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
... "Meindert Sprang" ) writes: Exactly! I have at least three sizes of teaspoons in my kitchen drawer..... Which one is right? :-) are they metric or British teaspoons? hint: turn over and look for country of manufacture. if Japan, China, Tiwan, or Korea don't use. :) Nah, no luck. They're completely blank.... cheap sh*t. :-) Meindert |
Polyester or Epoxy?
I have never tried it myself but I have heard people use it when vacuum
bagging. I would be skeptical of claims that no further prep work would be needed by using peel ply, too much to lose, but hey I said I never used it before, I have also heard people laying a second coat or layer down before the first has fully cured, not right away but many hours later, this again I would not try on a bet, I am really just a dabbler in this stuff but I try and get it right. I wish this group had been around when I restored my 30' Chris Craft back in the 80's, could have used the help, took alot of those lumps of life that made me so pretty, heheh -- From the rocky shores of the Skykomish river David Bosworth http://www.premier1.net/~daveb/ Richard Lamb wrote in message ... David Bosworth wrote: I guess what I should have said was, there should not have been any blush to cause the failure in the first place, of course if it is left on the work there will be little or no bond at all with what ever is applied on top. This is not a failure of the product, but in the application. -- Im curious if using peel ply is a common technique in boat building? This is a light layer of dacron or cheap polyester fabric placed over the wet layup. When cured, the peel ply is "peeled" off leaving a clean raw surface ready for the next lamination. Takes the blush off too. Richard |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
... I don't think anyone would recommend polyester as an adhesive. Noone should, but is happens. I once bought plan for a 15 sailing dinghy. The building method specified was stich and glue, using glass tape and...... polyester. However I think you'll find plastic resin or polyurethane cheaper than epoxy and all that is needed in a good many situtations, from laminating to screwed-and-glued chine battens. I use the least cost adhesvie for the job which means I have used epoxy in some situations. I don't like polyurethane. It needs high clamping force, just like resorcinol. I tried to laminate a stem once, using PU glue. Didn't work. It's simply impossible to clamp 10 layers of mahogany around a mould AND apply a pressure of at least 4 kg/cm2 on ALL layers. Meindert |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... I don't think anyone would recommend polyester as an adhesive. Noone should, but is happens. I once bought plan for a 15 sailing dinghy. The building method specified was stich and glue, using glass tape and...... polyester. I don't recommend it but I've tried but I have used it for taped butts on a small (virola) plywood boat and its holding up after a couple of seasons. These butt joins are all above the waterline though, so they never get wet. I don't like polyurethane. It needs high clamping force, just like resorcinol. I tried to laminate a stem once, using PU glue. Didn't work. It's simply impossible to clamp 10 layers of mahogany around a mould AND apply a pressure of at least 4 kg/cm2 on ALL layers. The polyurethane which people use on cheap plywood boats is the thick construction mastic frequently referred to a "liquid nails". The brand most often used is Bulldog PL Premuim because its supposed to be stronger. I've lamainated plywood with PL Premium using weights, and used if for screwed-and-glued chines, gunwales, and skids. It works fine. There's a photo on my website under "Boats", "Folding Cabin". I used plastic resin for my first boat and PL Premium for the other two. Plastic resin requires a closer fit, more heat (70 deg F vs 50 deg F), and is less tolerant of repositioning. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
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Polyester or Epoxy?
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... I don't think anyone would recommend polyester as an adhesive. Noone should, but is happens. I once bought plan for a 15 sailing dinghy. The building method specified was stich and glue, using glass tape and...... polyester. However I think you'll find plastic resin or polyurethane cheaper than epoxy and all that is needed in a good many situtations, from laminating to screwed-and-glued chine battens. I use the least cost adhesvie for the job which means I have used epoxy in some situations. I don't like polyurethane. It needs high clamping force, just like resorcinol. I tried to laminate a stem once, using PU glue. Didn't work. It's simply impossible to clamp 10 layers of mahogany around a mould AND apply a pressure of at least 4 kg/cm2 on ALL layers. Meindert Lord knows I am not a chemist, but the two part polyester I have used "seems" to harden more brittle than the epoxy I have used. I like the property of a little flexability, especially on smaller boats. Scotty from SmallBoats.com Scotty |
Polyester or Epoxy?
Come on William, I didn't say epoxy is necessary. I said that without
an informed opinion (in part the application testing you speak of, which I did at GE for 10 years) you had a better bet (guess) with epoxy. Your right, I don't know. That's why at todays prices I chose to go with epoxy and increase my odds. You are the only one I'm hearing that says epoxy doubles the cost of a small boat. In fact, so far the other builders seem to disagree. You sure of that? I agree that epoxy has been overpromoted especially in the area of encapsulating wood but we're not talking about that here. Allans question was what to use to repair a boat of poly glass construction. For that amount of material I believe epoxy wins hands down. Regards, Ron I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. |
Polyester or Epoxy?
Meindert and William,
Please note that a proper drop is dispensed from a pipette or in my case for building models, a popsicle stick. Regards, Ron I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. |
Polyester or Epoxy?
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Polyester or Epoxy?
Subject
Someone mentioned mixing 1/2 teaspoon amounts of resin. Good grief, takes more resin than that to get a chip brush wet so you can go to work. That person must be in the micro mini model building business, not boat building. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Polyester or Epoxy?
P.C. Ford ) writes:
......and is not a marine glue. "marine glue"? its water resistent, not water proof. the label on the tube says not to use it in construction "below grade". however plastic resin glue is also water resistent and not water proof and I use it too as have many other boatbuilders over the years. one of my polyurethane-glued boats (Loonie) is not kept in the water. it is kept on on pegs on my garage wall and transported to the water on top of the car for an afternoon outing. I have another polyurethane-glued boat (Delta) that stayed outside its first year off the ground but covered in 3 feet of snow in winter. in spring snow melts bottom up which kept the hull wet for days on end. the gunwles got pretty soft. there has been no problem with the polyurethane adhesive. I had room to keep that boat inside this winter but in the spring its going outside again. there are photos of both boats on my website showing how they are used. If I build another one of these small boats I'll certainly use the PL Premuim again. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
Ron Thornton ) writes:
Come on William, I didn't say epoxy is necessary. I said that without an informed opinion (in part the application testing you speak of, which I did at GE for 10 years) you had a better bet (guess) with epoxy. Your right, I don't know. That's why at todays prices I chose to go with epoxy and increase my odds. the original question was from a beginner who said the plan called for polyester and was wondering if he should use epoxy. You are the only one I'm hearing that says epoxy doubles the cost of a small boat. In fact, so far the other builders seem to disagree. You sure of that? a quart of epoxy resin alone costs $32 without hardener or filler at Candadian Tire. I'd probably only use a pint. however the most I've put into one of my home made boats is $60. that was the expensive one. the others were both under $25, including a tube of PL Preimuim at $3.99. Lloyd Sumpter posted the same thing when he was costing out one of Gavin Atkin's one sheet Mouse boats. if you're a professional boatbuildier you have to include the cost of labour, a boatbuilding yard, insuranace, tools, advertising, etc, etc, which adds to the cost of the boat and lowers the proportional cost of the adhesive. of course if all the customers want epxoy because they've been conditioned by advertisign to expect epxoy, then one has to build with epoxy. you're also likely to use epoxy to avoid any risk of lawsuits if the customer runs his boat onto the rocks. since the customer pays for the epxoy then why not use it? you get that mentality a lot with canoes. ignorant people influenced by advertising want kevlar and expoy because they think they can run survive bigger rapids, sigh. I agree that epoxy has been overpromoted especially in the area of encapsulating wood but we're not talking about that here. Allans question was what to use to repair a boat of poly glass construction. For that amount of material I believe epoxy wins hands down. I've borrowed books and videos on boat repair from the public library which adivse using polyester to repair polyester boats. I've used it myself on the few small repairs I've done. If people are more comfortable with epoxy I guess that's what they will use, if only for peace of mind. I can't help wondering how much epoxy promotion has to do with peace of mind. First you raise people's anxiety level, then you lower it again. Advertising is beautiful. :) Regards, Ron I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
Rodney Myrvaagnes ) writes:
Your boat never gets wet above the waterline? a boat with 4" draft and 6" freeboard paddled on small rivers and creeks. look at the photos of the Delta boat on my website to see why the butts never get wet. Well, okay, they get wet when it rains because the boat is left outside upside down. I forgot about that. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
"Lew Hodgett" ) writes:
Subject Someone mentioned mixing 1/2 teaspoon amounts of resin. Good grief, takes more resin than that to get a chip brush wet so you can go to work. That person must be in the micro mini model building business, not boat building. the more resin you put on a boat the heavier it is. the heavier a boat is the slower it goes. the heavier a boat is the less enjoyable it is to pick up and carry. yep, I do mix resin in 1/2 teaspoons and spread it on plywood seams with a toothpick to seal them, two coats. I also don't tape seams but just round them off with sandpaper and spread on two coats of resin with the same reusable toothpick to seal. Photos on my website. :) when I want less than 1/2 teaspoon of resin I resort to epoxy which can be mixed a drop of resin and a drop of hardner at at time. I also use resins on things other than boats, like rust spots on the car. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
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Polyester or Epoxy?
"Jim Conlin" wrote in message ... Whenever we get to one of these "How low can he go?" discussions, i have several reactions . cut PEOPLE CAN DIE WHEN THEIR BOATS FALL APART. End of rant. Seasons greetings, Jim Isn't this Natural Selection? .. |
Polyester or Epoxy?
It is, but, unfortunately, those whose shoddy boats have not yet fallen apart
insist on claiming their little victories. Peter HK wrote: "Jim Conlin" wrote in message ... Whenever we get to one of these "How low can he go?" discussions, i have several reactions . cut PEOPLE CAN DIE WHEN THEIR BOATS FALL APART. End of rant. Seasons greetings, Jim Isn't this Natural Selection? . |
Polyester or Epoxy?
(Sigh).
I don't recieve e-mail at this address because of spam. E-mail me at crtsrATmsnDOTcom. |
Polyester or Epoxy?
P.C. Ford ) writes:
On 20 Jan 2004 15:50:22 GMT, (William R. Watt) wrote: P.C. Ford ) writes: ......and is not a marine glue. "marine glue"? its water resistent, not water proof. the label on the tube says not to use it in construction "below grade". however plastic resin glue is also water resistent and not water proof The fact of the matter is that the criterion that determines Mr. Watts choice of materials is the horrible agony which he undergoes when he extends his right arm in the direction of the pocket in which he keeps his wallet. ah, like the cornered rat that he is PC Ford avoids the discussion at hand in which his opinion on glue has been soundly refuted and turns to attack instead the cost while ignoring the benefit number in the the cost/benefit ratio. If epoxy were a dollar cheaper than polyester, he would use it. If Sikaflex were a dollar cheaper than "Liquid Nails", he would use it. probably, but then there is the whole toxicity issue. are you saying you'd like me to have an irrational attachment to polyester? He is interested in building a boat (or something that resembles a boat) for the least possible amount. He has bragged about building a boat for $17.35 CDN. Endurance, beauty and safety are a distant second in his requirements. that, sir, is a conmpletely unfounded claim. a boat has to endure long enough to carry its load safely over the water until it has paid for itself. as I've reported here previously the lovely Loonie, the apple of my eye, is now operating at $2 a trip and getting lower with every one. I'll stack that up against any other pleasure boat, anytime. whoever said old boats full of mahogony trim are pleasing to look at? they look like old cars full of chrome trim to some of us. plug ugly. I have done boat restoration for a living (such as it is) for about 30 years. About 95% of the time, my clients know very little about boats. I do things which will extend the endurance, beauty and safety of the boat and that my clients will never see or know about. Of course, there are many levels of finish and workmanship. The paint job and fits which are appropriate on a 19th century sailing canoe would not be required or even appropriate on a wooden barge. However, to cut all corners in order to build a boat for the least possible investment as your main criterion is, (and I am not soley criticizing Mr. Watt) frankly disgusting. to cut all superfluous corners, especially all that ugly mohogony trim and those garish brass fittings, is smart boat building. all that stuff is only on those boats to impress onlookers with the amount of money the ower could afford to waste. stockbrokers, bankers, and robber barons, bah. sure, that stuff sells boats. people want you to think they are bankers and stockbrokers. bah. Very few non-professional boatbuilders actually have to or need to build a boat. They do it as a hobby; it's something they do for pleasure. I cannot fathom why someone would take pleasure in doing it for absolutely least possible amount of money. I suppose it is another example of the careless throwaway nature of what we call western civilization. But the important thing is that it just doesn't look like fun to me. Can't understand this kind of reasoning. to each his own. some like the designing best. some the building. some the boating or fishing or whatever. a boat need not be an end in itself. its primarily a mode of transportation. people who want them for transportation are quite right in no wanting to spend any more on them than they have to. lots and lots of amateur boatbuilders build a boat for one reason, to save money. nothing wrong with building a boat that will do the job at least cost. lots of the old boats traditionalists like to worship and call lovely were nothing mroe than the cheapest work boats that would do the job. all commercial boats are built to maximize the owners finacial return. its when people start spending money on boats just to impress that they turn ugly and wasteful. I'll bet PD Ford eats off a Loius IV solid mahogony dining table at his house. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
Jim Conlin ) writes:
It is, but, unfortunately, those whose shoddy boats have not yet fallen apart insist on claiming their little victories. all boats eventually fall apart. even boats with epoxy in them. no claiming any little victory with that statement. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
William R. Watt ) writes:
I'll bet PD Ford eats off a Loius IV solid mahogony dining table at his house. :) that should have been PC Ford. sorry about the typo. the name is known in the newsgroup. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
(William R. Watt) wrote in message ...
P.C. Ford ) writes: On 20 Jan 2004 15:50:22 GMT, (William R. Watt) wrote: P.C. Ford ) writes: ......and is not a marine glue. "marine glue"? its water resistent, not water proof. the label on the tube says not to use it in construction "below grade". however plastic resin glue is also water resistent and not water proof The fact of the matter is that the criterion that determines Mr. Watts choice of materials is the horrible agony which he undergoes when he extends his right arm in the direction of the pocket in which he keeps his wallet. ah, like the cornered rat that he is PC Ford avoids the discussion at hand in which his opinion on glue has been soundly refuted and turns to attack instead the cost while ignoring the benefit number in the the cost/benefit ratio. If epoxy were a dollar cheaper than polyester, he would use it. If Sikaflex were a dollar cheaper than "Liquid Nails", he would use it. probably, but then there is the whole toxicity issue. are you saying you'd like me to have an irrational attachment to polyester? He is interested in building a boat (or something that resembles a boat) for the least possible amount. He has bragged about building a boat for $17.35 CDN. Endurance, beauty and safety are a distant second in his requirements. that, sir, is a conmpletely unfounded claim. a boat has to endure long enough to carry its load safely over the water until it has paid for itself. as I've reported here previously the lovely Loonie, the apple of my eye, is now operating at $2 a trip and getting lower with every one. I'll stack that up against any other pleasure boat, anytime. whoever said old boats full of mahogony trim are pleasing to look at? they look like old cars full of chrome trim to some of us. plug ugly. I have done boat restoration for a living (such as it is) for about 30 years. About 95% of the time, my clients know very little about boats. I do things which will extend the endurance, beauty and safety of the boat and that my clients will never see or know about. Of course, there are many levels of finish and workmanship. The paint job and fits which are appropriate on a 19th century sailing canoe would not be required or even appropriate on a wooden barge. However, to cut all corners in order to build a boat for the least possible investment as your main criterion is, (and I am not soley criticizing Mr. Watt) frankly disgusting. to cut all superfluous corners, especially all that ugly mohogony trim and those garish brass fittings, is smart boat building. all that stuff is only on those boats to impress onlookers with the amount of money the ower could afford to waste. stockbrokers, bankers, and robber barons, bah. sure, that stuff sells boats. people want you to think they are bankers and stockbrokers. bah. Very few non-professional boatbuilders actually have to or need to build a boat. They do it as a hobby; it's something they do for pleasure. I cannot fathom why someone would take pleasure in doing it for absolutely least possible amount of money. I suppose it is another example of the careless throwaway nature of what we call western civilization. But the important thing is that it just doesn't look like fun to me. Can't understand this kind of reasoning. to each his own. some like the designing best. some the building. some the boating or fishing or whatever. a boat need not be an end in itself. its primarily a mode of transportation. people who want them for transportation are quite right in no wanting to spend any more on them than they have to. lots and lots of amateur boatbuilders build a boat for one reason, to save money. nothing wrong with building a boat that will do the job at least cost. lots of the old boats traditionalists like to worship and call lovely were nothing mroe than the cheapest work boats that would do the job. all commercial boats are built to maximize the owners finacial return. its when people start spending money on boats just to impress that they turn ugly and wasteful. I'll bet PD Ford eats off a Loius IV solid mahogony dining table at his house. :) PC is not usually agreeable with the whole concept of S+T boats to start with, and aside from a comment I made last year about some "retired aviation engineer", has shown to have knowledge and appreciation of earlier construction methods and ideas (I refuse to call them "traditional"). The fact that he would even address, without sarcasm issues related to S+T boats, is a good start. Who knows, maybe someday he will build a quick S+T just for the enjoyment of doing it with a kid on a few afternoons... (remove tounge from cheek) Either way he has softened ;), and many of the construction and safety issues he addresses are indeed valid. I think what we need to remember here is that there will be folks who are going to build their first boat that will come to this group for information. You can not assume that they will come to the table with all of the experience you have with wood, smallboats, research and development, and even good old common sense that you bring, when you determine polyester is better than epoxy, or cheap luan in place of marine, for your boat. It is important that we tailor our information to that possibility and any generality, especially one that would suggest not to use marine wood, or marine adhesive, for a marine vehicle, may not serve those who are the most unaware of possibilities, while building or on the water, in the most responsible manner. Also, I refuse to accept the notion that I am not at least somewhat responsible for something that might, or may not happen because of something I suggested here in this group, that is why I usually spend more time explaining my opinion, than just defending it... And just for the sake of full disclosure, I have no particular agenda here. I build and have built boats of Poly, Epoxy, Occume, and ACX, fir, Mahogany, etc... but there are several criteria which determine what materials should be used for any and every boat, including builder experience, environment, end use of vessel, etc... See my post he http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...boats.building I will note one more thing. There is no reason a smallboat can not be relatively inexpensive, safe, and beautiful. Scotty from SmallBoats.com |
Polyester or Epoxy?
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Polyester or Epoxy?
P.C. Ford ) writes:
On 20 Jan 2004 23:38:21 GMT, (William R. Watt) wrote: I'll bet PD Ford eats off a Loius IV solid mahogony dining table at his house. :) Sorry, it is an simple oak table which belonged to my grandparents (and maybe great grandparents) Probably about a hundred years old. It's not fancy but it was built of proper materials and it has served its purpose for many years. You should try that philosophy. I eat off a government surplus conference table. It has no solid wood in it, just sawdust and glue with surface veneer and shiny chrome metal legs. Weighs a ton. Looks impressive. Power dining. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Polyester or Epoxy?
WHAT!? You guys have tables!!??
William R. Watt wrote: P.C. Ford ) writes: On 20 Jan 2004 23:38:21 GMT, (William R. Watt) wrote: I'll bet PD Ford eats off a Loius IV solid mahogony dining table at his house. :) Sorry, it is an simple oak table which belonged to my grandparents (and maybe great grandparents) Probably about a hundred years old. It's not fancy but it was built of proper materials and it has served its purpose for many years. You should try that philosophy. I eat off a government surplus conference table. It has no solid wood in it, just sawdust and glue with surface veneer and shiny chrome metal legs. Weighs a ton. Looks impressive. Power dining. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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