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are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
If so, where can they be accessed, please ?
Thank you. -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
No, Herreshoff plans are not public domain. Write to the Herreshoff Museum in
Bristol, RI for details on what is available for sale. Sorry, I don't have the addie right at hand, but a quick google should find it - they are online. Steve |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Not public, but available at the Hart Nautical Museum at MIT
ron |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old?
the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was completely verticaly integrated? how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today? Courtney Thomas ) writes: If so, where can they be accessed, please ? Thank you. -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
William R. Watt wrote:
: just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old? Pretty damned useful. Especially if you have one of their boats - as I do - and are trying to rebuild it back to original condition. Furthermore, you can get perfectly fine wood and build off their plans and have a great boat. It doesn't require the finest wood imaginable. As for the hardware, you can get replica herreshoff hardware, if you want. ZERO alteration would be required to make one of their boats to plan. However, when you get the plans officially, you arerequired to promise that you will NOT make a fiberglass or concrete or aluminum version of their boats. Of course you can break the promise - but why would you? The design assumes wood which impacts sailing quality. Restoration of my 84 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm : the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? : Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was : completely verticaly integrated? : how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today? : Courtney Thomas ) writes: : If so, where can they be accessed, please ? : : Thank you. : -- : Courtney Thomas : s/v Mutiny : lying Oriental, NC : WDB5619 : : -- : ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ : William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network : homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm : warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned -- --- Gregg "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old? the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was completely verticaly integrated? how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today? You know the old saying "Where there's a will, there's a way."? Well, where there's a will, there's also marketability. That's why there are still-existent bronze age craft instructors, sailcloth makers, loomspinners, renaissance faires.... A business for every interest. |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Eide wrote:
: : Moulds on every frame, : tapered frames, Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer etc. Helps performance. But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch). first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16", moulded and sided, for every foot of length. So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box. Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location. Still, I'm adhering to the tapers. --- Gregg My woodworking projects: Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Are you serious?!! "of what use" ???!! The Herreshoffs made leaps and
bounds in sail and power boats. The lines of a Herreshoff are worth the study, and it's also amazing to see the size of the scantlings used, very small indeed. Old hardware is still around and there are a few moulds that people are casting with. The biggest leap isn't in the material, it's in the construction. Herreshoff's construction methods were secret at the time and were not passed on before the old timers died. Moulds on every frame, tapered frames, building (even the NY50) upside down. There is plenty to be had by old plans like that. Sorry for the rant, but they were doing something right back then. Eide "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old? the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was completely verticaly integrated? how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today? Courtney Thomas ) writes: If so, where can they be accessed, please ? Thank you. -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
The Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection at the Hart is a royal pain to
search through. The 13,000 drawings are indexed by some arcane system used by the Herreshoff plant. It took me 4 hours to find all the drawings for the 12.5. As we were in Boston on vacation the first mate was not a happy camper when I came out of the museum. Foo Bar wrote: Not public, but available at the Hart Nautical Museum at MIT ron -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
There's more on accessing the various Herreshoff plans here
I know a few people who specialize in building such boats, authentically. The materials are available, but not at lumber yards. There's more forest in New England today than a hundred years ago and there are people with sawmills who cut cedar, oak and locust. Jim Reineck, Roger Winiarski and others are continually improving the availability of authentic hardware and there's no mystery to casting bronze. What's harder to find are the skills, but outfits like IYRS, The Landing School and Mystic Seaport are improving that situation, too. As I understand it, the Herreshoff Manufacturing Co. plans at MIT are distributed with the proviso that a boat built from them will be built authentically, without substantial change either in the design or materials. See the WB article and following letters last year about the Buzzard's Bay 25's . Besides, who would have the temerity to tinker with such perfection? LFH once wrote that if a builder made the slightest change to one of his designs "birds will no longer carol over her". Can't have that! At any time, the boats we build are constrained by the materials available. New materials have become available, and the range of possible designs has therefore expanded. This is an opportunity to achieve boats that function better. For example, the designs of Joel White and his successor Bob Stephens capture the aesthetic of the Herreshoff era while fully exploiting today's materials. Jim "William R. Watt" wrote: just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old? the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was completely verticaly integrated? how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today? Courtney Thomas ) writes: If so, where can they be accessed, please ? Thank you. -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
"Eide" wrote in message
Sorry for the rant, but they were doing something right back then. And progress produces only junk . . . :-) -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... snipe the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? snipe There is old growth available, you just have to talk the guy that owns it into selling it to you.. If you are building a real classic or Heritage boat, you can sometimes get permission from the State Parks to take a wind fall or few off their hands. (I know one park Ranger who is burning old growth for home heat.) I know that there are giant ceder logs laying all over the Olympic forest reserve. The Native American wood carvers get permission all the time.. When I was building a boat in RI, back in the early '70s I wanted white oak for the frames, etc... I just went off for a drive into the back country over in Mass. Stop ever once in a while and listen for the sound of a chain saw or saw mill.. Soon I found an old family operated saw mill.. I hung around until they stopped for a break (repair something). Told the old man that I wanted some oak for sawn frames of a traditional boat.. He said that he was cutting white oak for a furnisher mfg and would be busy for the rest of the winter.. However, since I mentioned that I really wanted seasoned oak, he pointed me to a dozen stacks of ugly blackish lumber, half covered with snow.. "Take a look over there. That was an order I sawed up years ago and the fellow never came to get it." It was just what I was looking for. 5/4 and thicker, rough sawn, random widths and lengths.. I paid $200 for a trailer load of this wood.. I know of a half dozen backyard saw mills around here in western WA. They usually saw for half of the lumber and have stacks of nice wood, already air dried.. The backyard sawmills tend to get the single or several logs from small land owners who are just clearing a site for building, etc.. Bottom line, if your really want to build a fine traditional boat, the lumber is available.. Just not at HD. -- My opinion and experience. FWIW Steve s/v Good Intentions |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Excellent, Gregg! Enjoyed your web site a lot! Keep up the good work on
that boat! Brian "Gregg Germain" wrote in message ... William R. Watt wrote: : just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old? Pretty damned useful. Especially if you have one of their boats - as I do - and are trying to rebuild it back to original condition. Furthermore, you can get perfectly fine wood and build off their plans and have a great boat. It doesn't require the finest wood imaginable. As for the hardware, you can get replica herreshoff hardware, if you want. ZERO alteration would be required to make one of their boats to plan. However, when you get the plans officially, you arerequired to promise that you will NOT make a fiberglass or concrete or aluminum version of their boats. Of course you can break the promise - but why would you? The design assumes wood which impacts sailing quality. Restoration of my 84 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm : the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available? : Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was : completely verticaly integrated? : how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today? : Courtney Thomas ) writes: : If so, where can they be accessed, please ? : : Thank you. : -- : Courtney Thomas : s/v Mutiny : lying Oriental, NC : WDB5619 : : -- : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- : William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network : homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm : warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned -- --- Gregg "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
On 23 Dec 2003 10:28:04 -0400, Gregg Germain
wrote: Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer etc. Helps performance. But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch). first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16", moulded and sided, for every foot of length. I don't think it took that much longer in a shop that did it routinely. I have an anecdote that explains. When I had a loft in Boston for instrument making, through the mid 1970s, the Charlestown Naval Shipyard auctioned off its equipment. Everything that could be easily moved was collected in a large room, but a few things stayed in place. Among thes was two machines I was later told were "ship saws." They were effectively "tilting arbor" band saws with stationary tables about 6 or 7 feet square, 6-foot wheels, and a yoke whose exterior was a semicircular arc centered on the hole in the table where the boade passed. The lower wheel was in a slot in the follr, so the table was at a reasonable working height. The outside of the arc had gear teeth, and there was a crank located so a man could turn it while he observed the cut from above. There were degrees of tilt marked on it as well. I tried to imagine how this was used, and why there were two of them. Three brothers who had a millwork shop on the first floor of my loft building were able to describe its use. They had worked for a yard that built small craft for the US Navy during WW2. That machine was used to make sawn ribs.The curve was transferred from drawing to the top surface, and numbers indicating the angle of the plank marked along the curve. Two men worked together to cut the ribs. One fed the piece into the saw, supported by the always flat table. The other would turn the tilt crank to produce smooth transitions of tilt from one number to the next. Thus, the outer surface of the rib would closely approximate the inner surface of the plank that would eventually lie against it. And these saws could do ribs for jobs as big as the restoration of the USS Constitution. Nearby was a station for a 36" DeWalt RAS, which had been moved to the warehouse. That was an astonishing machine to see. It had a power feed. On the ground floor below the ship saws was a band sawmill to saw logs that came in directly from schooners tied to the seawall. A coiled blade lay on the floor. Its width reached my knee from the floor. I can't imagine how you would coil a bandsaw blade that big. I don't know what happened to these magnificent machines. I hope they are in a museum but if they are I don't know where it is. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a "In this house we _obey_ the laws of thermodynamics." --Homer Simpson |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
There are still 'Tilting Arbor Band Saws" around in major shipyards.. In
fact, when I was running the wood hobby shop in Guam, we installed a smaller version of what you discribed.. Although there is little need for them to cut the bevel on ships frames, the smaller versions are used to cut fitted blocks for the side block caps in dry docks.. Most commercial ships are docked on universal blocks that are convex on top with little or no bevel.. For navy ships the top of the side blocks must be cut to fit the contour of the hull.. This is usually cut from 12"x12" Douglas Fir. For this you need to cut both the curve of the hull and the bevel.. The docking plan gives a table for this that is derived (after a fashion) from the original table of offsets. Your tax dollars at work.. Just some shipyard/drydock trivia. FWIW Steve s/v Good Intentions |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Different strokes for different folks. Function versus form versus maintenance versus utility versus beauty versus ... ... ... the trade-offs go on forever. "Jacques Mertens" wrote in message .. . "Eide" wrote in message Sorry for the rant, but they were doing something right back then. And progress produces only junk . . . :-) -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Gregg,
Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ? Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do such a thing ? Appreciatively, Courtney Gregg Germain wrote: Eide wrote: : : Moulds on every frame, : tapered frames, Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer etc. Helps performance. But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch). first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16", moulded and sided, for every foot of length. So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box. Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location. Still, I'm adhering to the tapers. --- Gregg My woodworking projects: Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Ask the curator at
http://www.herreshoff.org/Tops/herre..._drawings.html Courtney Thomas wrote: Gregg, Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ? Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do such a thing ? Appreciatively, Courtney Gregg Germain wrote: Eide wrote: : : Moulds on every frame, : tapered frames, Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer etc. Helps performance. But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch). first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16", moulded and sided, for every foot of length. So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box. Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location. Still, I'm adhering to the tapers. --- Gregg My woodworking projects: Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
"Courtney Thomas" wrote in message ... Gregg, Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ? Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do such a thing ? Appreciatively, Courtney Cape Cod Shipbuilding owns the rights and tooling for the 12, the 15, and a couple other small desigins. They built some wooden 12's back in the '50s (I own one), and currenty produce a fiberglass version of the 12. An original set of molds for the 12 is in the Herreshoff Museum, labeled as "courtesey Gordon Goodwin, Cape Cod Shipbuilding." At the Annapolis Sailboat Show last October, one of Gordon's daughters told me that they (Cape Cod) are happy to help restoration projects with replacement hardware, construction information, etc. For those trying to figure out how the HMCo document collection at MIT is organized, a copy of "Guide to The Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection" published by the MIT Museum (ISBN 0-917027-051) will help. It also spells out MIT's policies regarding replicas and reproductions for boats other than those whose rights are held by Cape Cod Shipbuilding. Also, Mystic Seaport has lines (without offsets) for the Herreshoff boats in their collection (a 12 and "Alerion") that are suitable for half-hull model building. |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Here's one
ttp://www.mjhyachts.com/brokerage_vente/classic35_+/eleonora.htm Courtney Thomas wrote: Gregg, Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ? Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do such a thing ? Appreciatively, Courtney Gregg Germain wrote: Eide wrote: : : Moulds on every frame, : tapered frames, Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer etc. Helps performance. But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch). first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16", moulded and sided, for every foot of length. So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box. Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location. Still, I'm adhering to the tapers. --- Gregg My woodworking projects: Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm Steambending FAQ with photos: http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 -- Courtney Thomas s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 |
are Hereshoff plans in the public domain ?
Courtney Thomas wrote:
: Gregg, : Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ? Hi Courteny, I didn't say that there weren't any. I said you have to sign an agreement saying you would NOT build a Herreshoff design with any method or materials other than the types originally used. I don't know if anyone has flaunted their promise not to do it. : Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do : such a thing ? That's the implication. I don't know what they could or would do. : Appreciatively, : Courtney : Gregg Germain wrote: : Eide wrote: : : : : Moulds on every frame, : : tapered frames, : : Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer : etc. Helps performance. : : But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are : rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch). : : first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time : consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16", : moulded and sided, for every foot of length. : : So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions : moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one : breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box. : Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location. : : Still, I'm adhering to the tapers. : : : --- Gregg : : My woodworking projects: : : : Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments: : : http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html : : Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat: : : http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm : : Steambending FAQ with photos: : : http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm : : : "Improvise, adapt, overcome." : : Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics : Phone: (617) 496-1558 : : : -- : Courtney Thomas : s/v Mutiny : lying Oriental, NC : WDB5619 -- --- Gregg "Improvise, adapt, overcome." Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: (617) 496-1558 |
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