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#2
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Thanks Peggy!
those are some things to be considered. I'm valueing all the opinions I have gotten so far. Sounds like you did "ok" Tim |
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#3
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
wrote:
Thanks Peggy! those are some things to be considered. I'm valueing all the opinions I have gotten so far. Sounds like you did "ok" Yep...and I had the use of the boat for 4 years too. There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats" available, some which only need cosmetic work, others which need a lot more. If you want to do this, I suggest you start by finding one you'd like to own. Then you can take all the time you need to learn how to do it right, have the use of the boat once you get it past a certain point...and then decide whether to keep it or sell it and look for another one to restore. Fwiw, I'd do it again in heartbeat...not with the idea of making a profit, but to have everything on a 32-38' boat for $50k that would run $175-250k for comparable new...and with class and style too, instead of something that looks like the inside of a refrigerator or a fiberglass showerstall with upholstered seats. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
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#4
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
If you want to do this, I suggest you start by finding one you'd like to
own. Then you can take all the time you need to learn how to do it right, have the use of the boat once you get it past a certain point...and then decide whether to keep it or sell it and look for another one to restore. Thanks Peggy. I'm going to pass this thread to my cousin. It sounds like it would be a fun venture, but I myself don't have the finances, nor the location to pursue this notion. I'm in S. IL. which the only good piece of water for a big cruiser is Carlyle Lake and thats pretty small for these types of boats. I've got an 18 ft Chris Craft runabout, and that pretty well does it for me. I used to have a 27 ft, Chris Craft Cavalier but the old wood hull was too much for me to keep up with. I found out that the bigger the boat, takes the bigger the pocket! LOL! Jerry is down on the Mississippi though, and he's been asking some questions, and I thought I'd post here to get a mild summary. You made some excellent points! Tim |
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#5
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
instead of something that looks like the inside of a refrigerator or a fiberglass showerstall with upholstered seats.
Or having an interior that looks like a cheap fishing camper... |
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#6
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Peggie, wasn't it a couple of years ago that you sold your boat? Things
might have changed just a little. wrote: Thanks Peggy! those are some things to be considered. I'm valueing all the opinions I have gotten so far. Sounds like you did "ok" Peggie Hall wrote: Yep...and I had the use of the boat for 4 years too. Which is a great value in itself, but not one that puts bread 7 peanut butter on the table. There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats" available, Yep. Far more than the market can absorb. Most of these boats are landfill. some which only need cosmetic work, others which need a lot more. If you want to do this, I suggest you start by finding one you'd like to own. Then you can take all the time you need to learn how to do it right, have the use of the boat once you get it past a certain point...and then decide whether to keep it or sell it and look for another one to restore. The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as a sistership that was not storm damaged... plus the 2nd-hand boat market is in the dumper right now. Everybody says "Pristine boats always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always sell for their asking price. Fwiw, I'd do it again in heartbeat...not with the idea of making a profit, but to have everything on a 32-38' boat for $50k that would run $175-250k for comparable new...and with class and style too, instead of something that looks like the inside of a refrigerator or a fiberglass showerstall with upholstered seats. I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are. But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should become a broker, not a fixer-upper. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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#7
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
DSK wrote:
Peggie, wasn't it a couple of years ago that you sold your boat? Things might have changed just a little. The new AND used boat market has always been, and will always be, cyclic...or have you forgotten that you couldn't give a boat away in the late '80s-early '90s? By '95, the market had recovered, but there will always be a glut of used boats 'cuz fiberglass, unlike wood, can last forever...by 1999, 67% of all boat sales had become used boats. The market is depressed again, but that's the boat biz. There's an old joke among boat builders: How do you make a million $$ in the boat building biz? Start with 2 million and get out quick. Which is a great value in itself, but not one that puts bread 7 peanut butter on the table. That's not why I restored it. There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats" available, Yep. Far more than the market can absorb. Most of these boats are landfill. More of 'em than should may end up there because there are so many... but not nearly as many as you might think belong there. The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as a sistership that was not storm damaged... What "record?" Vehicles have that kind of paper trail, but boats don't. The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...and if it's properly repaired, even structural damage is immaterial. plus the 2nd-hand boat market is in the dumper right now. That much is true. But it's been there before and it's recovered...it will again. And there's a much better market for used boats in pristine condition than for new ones...by '99, 67% of all boat sales were used boats...that number is only gonna get higher. Everybody says "Pristine boats always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always sell for their asking price. They do if the asking price is realistic for current market conditions. When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k. I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are. Except for very high end boat builders, OEM equipment selection is more often based on price, not quality...and as for OEM installation, it's not always done right, it's done the least expensive way. I could have achieved the same result for about $5k less had I opted for lower quality materials and equipment...even less than than if I could have done more of the work myself...but I restored the boat for MY use. I also had one of the best surveyors in the country (a close friend) bird-dogging my every move to make sure everything was done right according to all the standards...she wouldn't let me short-cut ANYthing! I've said many times that I learned more about systems other than plumbing in the 2 years I spent restoring that boat than I'd learned in the previous 25 years. But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should become a broker, not a fixer-upper. One really needs to be a bit of both to do it right.  I could never bea successful broker...I'm too straightforward...sellers don't want to hear what I'd tell most of 'em they'd have to do to make their boats worth what they THINK they're worth. And unless they did it, I couldn't in good conscience represent 'em as anything but "project" boats. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
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#8
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
... Most of these boats are
landfill. Peggie Hall wrote: More of 'em than should may end up there because there are so many... but not nearly as many as you might think belong there. heh heh maybe so, but I'm not the one that decides. Right now there are a LOT of 'fixer-uppers' waiting in boatyard lots, clearly supply exceeds demand in this particular commodity. And this past hurricane season created so many more that there are acres of them being stored by insurance companies pending settlement/disposal. The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as a sistership that was not storm damaged... Peggie Hall wrote: What "record?" Vehicles have that kind of paper trail, but boats don't. They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't keep a record?? The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value... I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value of the boat. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for the boat. Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you negotiate with a seller, but the problem then becomes getting insurance without professionally correcting his punch list. Others seem to almost function as brokers assistants. It's a highly variable profession, the one constant is that you should definitely follow your surveyor around like a little puppy and learn everything you possibly can from him. ... and if it's properly repaired, even structural damage is immaterial. Yep. One of the beauties of fiberglass, it truly can be made as good as new... the problem is that you can't tell what's under the gleaming surface... is it just skin deep or a truly proper repair? Some details like the filleting & tabbing etc etc give clues as to the workmanship of the repairperson. plus the 2nd-hand boat market is in the dumper right now. That much is true. But it's been there before and it's recovered... True. All you need to do is wait! Everybody says "Pristine boats always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always sell for their asking price. They do if the asking price is realistic for current market conditions. Bingo. That's what I'm sayin' !! When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k. That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for inflation and better bank rates at that time frame. One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down. I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are. Except for very high end boat builders, OEM equipment selection is more often based on price, not quality...and as for OEM installation, it's not always done right, it's done the least expensive way. That's putting it politely. Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either. ... I could have achieved the same result for about $5k less had I opted for lower quality materials and equipment...even less than than if I could have done more of the work myself...but I restored the boat for MY use. I also had one of the best surveyors in the country (a close friend) bird-dogging my every move to make sure everything was done right according to all the standards...she wouldn't let me short-cut ANYthing! I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster. I've said many times that I learned more about systems other than plumbing in the 2 years I spent restoring that boat than I'd learned in the previous 25 years. It's certainly an educational experience. That amy be one reason why I prefer working on boats to working on my house... the house isn't going anywhere and it's a big PITA... the boat is an adventure waiting to happen! But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should become a broker, not a fixer-upper. One really needs to be a bit of both to do it right. I could never bea successful broker...I'm too straightforward...sellers don't want to hear what I'd tell most of 'em they'd have to do to make their boats worth what they THINK they're worth. And unless they did it, I couldn't in good conscience represent 'em as anything but "project" boats. A while back we were selling a car and I met a few of the potential buyers. One guy looked it over, listened to me and said "Are you really trying to keep me from buying this car?" I said 'No, I just want to make sure you know what you're getting. There are lots of other cars you can go buy if you want to pay more and get a free pair of rose colored glasses.' I'm not a salesman! DSK |
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#9
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
DSK wrote:
They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't keep a record?? But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured. Fewer than 10% of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less how to search a boat's history. The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value... I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value of the boat. Not so, Doug...most lenders also require a survey on most used boats. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for the boat. Not any legitimate ethical surveyor! When I bought the Trojan (for cash btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my insurance would be cancelled. Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you negotiate with a seller... Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor. but the problem then becomes getting insurance without professionally correcting his punch list. Yup. True. All you need to do is wait! Unless you're buyin'... When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k. That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for inflation and better bank rates at that time frame. The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty much flat in the '90s. However, I was able to get the original 1979 factory-dealer invoice for the Trojan...she had a retail list of $97k with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had doubled the price of a comparable new boat. One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down. That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for $43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no payments. Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either. There are pros...and there are them who call themselves pros. Ya gotta be careful who to pick. I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster. That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. She has sat on and/or chairedevery industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn. I didn't have her survey the Trojan when I bought it...she'd surveyed it for the last 3 owners, knew every inch of it...so we spent a rainy Sunday in her office going over her files and costing out "worst case" and finally coming up with a fair "as is, where is" offer to the estate of the elderly man who owned her. She didn't do the insurance survey either...she was in Savannah in charge of risk management for Oympic racing venue. She did survey it for the buyer when I sold it, though...and even though she's a friend, and had bird-dogged everything I did to it...to the extent that I'd have bet real money she couldn't find a thing that needed correction, she did! Nothing major, but that lady doesn't even cut her friends ANY slack when she works for someone else! Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out there. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
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#10
posted to rec.boats.building
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Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
And still came out ahead. I paid $25k for the
boat...put about $18k into her ($3500 went into a new bottom and having everything above the waterline wetsanded and teflon coated)...sold her for $48k. a 5K profit isn't bad especially when you hired all the work. I hope you got to enjoy it a bit before the new owners took it over.  |
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