Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods. White oak
is more rot resistant than red, so don't be tempted to use red oak because
it glues better.

I'm using clinker construction in a bid to keep glue/resin usage to a
minimum. I don't particularly enjoy working with epoxies, but I do
enjoy working with mechanical fastenings and good quality wood. I may
have to laminate knees however as I can't come up with any sources for
grown crooks, and the stem will have to be, at least in part, a
lamination.

As far as the cedar goes, I only have Western Red available to me, I
apologise for not specifying this earlier, does this alter your
analysis? As a matter of interest, why are you recommending the cedar
over the oak, is it just ease of working?

Thanks

Al

On 20 Sep 2003 04:30:27 -0700, (Al) wrote:

Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods. White oak
is more rot resistant than red, so don't be tempted to use red oak because
it glues better.

I'm using clinker construction in a bid to keep glue/resin usage to a
minimum. I don't particularly enjoy working with epoxies, but I do
enjoy working with mechanical fastenings and good quality wood.
Great! I agree. Slathering goo is not particularly enjoyable to me.

I may
have to laminate knees however as I can't come up with any sources for
grown crooks, and the stem will have to be, at least in part, a
lamination.
There are specialist that offer crooks. Do a Google search. Here are
some suggestions for your side of the Atlantic:
http://www.covboat.demon.co.uk/sustainability.htm

If you have time you can easily get apple from an orchard which is
being pulled out. Takes time to season though.

As far as the cedar goes, I only have Western Red available to me, I
apologise for not specifying this earlier, does this alter your
analysis? As a matter of interest, why are you recommending the cedar
over the oak, is it just ease of working?

In the US, as far as I know, oak was never used for small boat
planking.

Oak is heavy and hard to work. It is stronger of course. The strength
is just not needed. The Lawley yard had a saying about their thin
scantlings on their dinghies. Something to the effect that if the boat
is going on the rocks, the difference between 3/8 and 7/16 is not
important.

Hi

"P.C. Ford" skrev i en meddelelse
...
On 20 Sep 2003 04:30:27 -0700, (Al) wrote:

Snip

As far as the cedar goes, I only have Western Red available to me, I
apologise for not specifying this earlier, does this alter your
analysis? As a matter of interest, why are you recommending the cedar
over the oak, is it just ease of working?

In the US, as far as I know, oak was never used for small boat
planking.

Oak is heavy and hard to work. It is stronger of course. The strength
is just not needed. The Lawley yard had a saying about their thin
scantlings on their dinghies. Something to the effect that if the boat
is going on the rocks, the difference between 3/8 and 7/16 is not
important.

Now Oak work different in thin planks. Oak and Ash have some simularity with
these matters, but a thin Oak plank is a different thing than a softwood or near
softwood .
Oak don't like it to dry and ofcaurse you can prefere a good Larch from a bad
Oak, but done right , and with top quality wood Oak add more than just the good
looks, it will drain your bank account, unless you master just a few skills,
Oak is perfect for Lapstrake boats, and with Epoxy , you can lenghten any plank
so you can experience a lapstrake boat without butts, in Oak , where the rule
is, that this can be 2/3 thickness now it is stronger wood.
Still why do you bother, Computer drawings with unfolded planks do exist with
Cyber-Boat, but from my best knowleage , most unfolding is done from smothened
single curved skins . You can hardly find modern designs, that is projected and
the most "modern" lapstrake design, that you would reconise, is the danish
folkboat .
Still with materials you have a wide choice even the computer thing is fiddeling
and square box in inches , ---------- Nice boats was once build in this smart
building method, even it still is difficult to project in 3D ,you can chose high
quality , but please read about Oak before you decide, as what you need is the
true gray Oak not the "Oak" that is often used with furniture , do it carry
acid and is bone hard or is it a weak specie for outdoor use even nice and
without knots ; with Oak you can ask cirain qualities.
BTW. --------- A Lapstrake is the one that carry less frames , acturly they are
build without, and the ribs put in after, this acturly define the Lapstrake
method , compared other methods.
With Cyber-Boat you will find true 3D Lapstrake computer models, being the basis
for the unfolded planks , but I guess no one even care that with 3D-H you can
complete the Lapstrake method, with a perfect 3D-Honeycomb framework, at last
one reliable, that can be cut from sheet material, Anyway the 3D-H building
method, that offer you to build a new WTC without the weak trusses and hangers,
proberly will produce very few true Lapstrake boats. Mahogony is what I prefered
when I made boats .Only later I taken lame cheap chipwood into consideration,
and acturly offer plans for a tremendures Longboat , that you can build
extremely cheap , the plans are free ,the plans don't care if it is plywood or
crome plated Gold , but if you realy want to make good use of thin Oak planks,
why didn't you check the full-scale plans here ;

http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/

Or ;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

O.T. you can se what 3D-H can produce , beside boat frames ;
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2806.html

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/structure-testbench/
Check Foto's folder for design.

Oak don't like it to dry

am I reading the correct implication that oak will tend to split when
dried out, but that softwood is likely to cope better and split less?

Still why do you bother,

partly because I want a challenge, partly because I want to work with
high quality materials and avoid resins (my day job is making
resins... I see enough of them and read enough MSDS' to put me off for
life), but I think mostly because there is something about a
"traditionally" constructed craft that gets me excited in a way that
composite boats don't. S&G definitely has it's place, and epoxy/wood
composite boats are excellent for light weight, ease of construction,
ease of maintenance, but _for_me_ they are not as interesting or
stimulating as clinker craft.

And a very small perverted part of me wants to do it just because
various authorities think it'll be far too hard for me ;-)

Life is for living!

Al

Hi

"Al" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
Oak don't like it to dry

am I reading the correct implication that oak will tend to split when
dried out, but that softwood is likely to cope better and split less?

Still why do you bother,

partly because I want a challenge, partly because I want to work with
high quality materials and avoid resins (my day job is making
resins... I see enough of them and read enough MSDS' to put me off for
life), but I think mostly because there is something about a
"traditionally" constructed craft that gets me excited in a way that
composite boats don't. S&G definitely has it's place, and epoxy/wood
composite boats are excellent for light weight, ease of construction,
ease of maintenance, but _for_me_ they are not as interesting or
stimulating as clinker craft.

And a very small perverted part of me wants to do it just because
various authorities think it'll be far too hard for me ;-)

Life is for living!

Al

Sound you are not fanatic about it, and you shuldn't be. As with just a small
quantity epoxies, you have the chance to make those small repairs, that the
average person don't know is there. The Lapstrake method on the other hand,
leave you the oppotunity to perform a structure that is much more advanced than
most think, ------- but that the tailored planks will fit without thruout
resistance is somthing important to remember, as sure you can force a plank
edgevise , but you pay somhow if you are not keen about how things shuld be and
could be.
You are quite right about my warning about drying Oak, but as with all wood this
also is about knowing the material and knowing the time needed to make sure the
surface is not drying faster than the core, ----------- please let me give an
example.
Normaly wet wood just sawn, is still "secured" with a plank piece nailed to the
end of the plank. When you ask why you get two ansvers ; first is that the nails
will hold the plank from splitting , and that is silli , as when the plank dry
it get more narrow while the plank piece with the nails keep the same length and
by this fact, acturly help splitting the plank.
Second ansver is that the plank nailed to the end of the wood, prevent the
endwood piece to dry out to fast. But even this is true , then why not just do
it as it shuld be done , replace the nails and plank piece with a layer of thick
paint.
Guess you have all chances to succes , if you find some realy old books about
wooden boat building, but as you proberly know, it is better to trust your own
judgement.
A small quantity epoxy can save a perfect plank and I se nothing wrong, using a
few grams epoxy to do so. -------- that's how I se Epoxy, not as somthing that
is more than 50 pct. and where everything else shuld be depandant on that, but
as a perfect glue. Not somthing to cover your missing skills but somthing that
allow for perfect materials and skills.
P.C.
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2806.html

Sound you are not fanatic about it, and you shuldn't be.

Epoxy is a tool like any other in my book. If I hit a situation
during the project in which epoxy is the sensible route to take
(against my definition of sensible. Most people would say that
building using the easiest, lightest weight method would be
sensible... killjoys ;-p), I will make use of it. I may well use it
at some point in the stem to avoid the hassles of stop waters.
However, this is a boat that will shrink and swell, that will respond
to the temperature, to it's environments. Copper has a little give in
it whereas epoxy will tend to be pretty immobile, I suspect that there
is potential over time for the epoxy to induce stress fractures in the
timber. And at the end of the day, copper/timber is an old method
that has stood up well to time. Epoxy hasn't had the same kind of
long term (centuries) testing.

Anyhow, plans are in the post. Thanks to Pat for pointing out crook
supplier, I'll look into that when I've worked out my requirements.
Thanks for all comments, right now I'm looking at western red cedar
for planking, whatever I can get for knees etc. (probably oak from the
literature). Centreline is still in question, although I'm tempted by
Iroko or Utile as what I've read indicates good mechanical properties
coupled with good looks. Ribs are hopefully suitable bending oak,
failing that, probably ash. Foils are tricky, Leather suggesting
"Mahogany" which leads me back in the Iroko/Utile direction. Any
thoughts?

Oars and spars are of course in Spruce. Thwarts are looking like
Utile/Iroko, again for looks... I weigh a paltry 11stones so
mechanical properties are not a big problem.

Can anyone spot any major problems in the above list?

Final question, I'm looking at getting hold of something like a 10
foot 3x6 as the backbone of my building jig. Presumably I can get
away with Pine/Fir for this as long as I check it to avoid warp and
plane it true?

Thanks to everyone, there aren't many newsgroups I would consider as a
source for valuable advice (used in conjunction with suitable
literature), but I have learned over the past few years to have
tremendous respect for more or less every poster here. Thanks.

Al

Go for it. I think one of the reasons that you see resins being glopped
around so much is because it is getting so darn hard, and expensive, to find
good wood anymore. At least in any length ...

Brian

PS: I'm an epoxy glopper, but I will most definately go the traditional
route at some point and take my time with a more artistic expression of
boatology... which probably means clinker construction (MHO).

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Al" wrote in message
om...
Oak don't like it to dry

am I reading the correct implication that oak will tend to split when
dried out, but that softwood is likely to cope better and split less?

Still why do you bother,

partly because I want a challenge, partly because I want to work with
high quality materials and avoid resins (my day job is making
resins... I see enough of them and read enough MSDS' to put me off for
life), but I think mostly because there is something about a
"traditionally" constructed craft that gets me excited in a way that
composite boats don't. S&G definitely has it's place, and epoxy/wood
composite boats are excellent for light weight, ease of construction,
ease of maintenance, but _for_me_ they are not as interesting or
stimulating as clinker craft.

And a very small perverted part of me wants to do it just because
various authorities think it'll be far too hard for me ;-)

Life is for living!

Al

It's like any hobby... if you look around, you can find boats cheap...
IMO, cheaper than you can build 'em, if you account for your time
especially), and often cheaper than the materials. I'm building them
for the experience, taxing my skills, the sense of accomplishment, etc.

Ed

Brian D wrote:
Go for it. I think one of the reasons that you see resins being glopped
around so much is because it is getting so darn hard, and expensive, to find
good wood anymore. At least in any length ...

Brian

PS: I'm an epoxy glopper, but I will most definately go the traditional
route at some point and take my time with a more artistic expression of
boatology... which probably means clinker construction (MHO).

(Al) wrote in message I may
have to laminate knees however as I can't come up with any sources for
grown crooks, and the stem will have to be, at least in part, a
lamination.

Al

If you are looking for grown crooks, Try:
http://www.newmansknees.com/
Disclamimer, they are a client.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com