Starting a new thread as the old one led to dead ends.

For a précis on the background, see the thread "Antennas, again, sorta" -
but I'm trying to find an up-the-mast single-item (or single box, anyway)
which will see my wifi connection in my laptop as well as shore points. To
emphasize the point, I don't want to have to connect either a laptop or
permanently mounted computer to a bridge (which would get the job done) via
anything, ethernet, USB active cable, coax or otherwise. Even allowing a
wireless AP/router below would not solve the problem, as I haven't found a
pair which will talk to each other, and I don't want the complexity/extra
wiring that would entail, either, if it would (work). Some sort of
arrangement which would require proprietary eqiupment (Part A will talk to
Part B only if they're both the same manufacturer, e.g, as I can't assure
that any shoreside point would have that manufacturer) likewise isn't
satisfactory. Amplification is a good thing (i.e. 200-1000mw) but the
antennas are what most likely will get the job done, and I have that part
handled.

The problem so far has been that I can't find an AP and Bridge which will
talk to each other. Surely there's something which will work, and can take
common DC power up the mast?

Since nobody here (or, at least, apparently so) knows of such a beast, can
anyone point me to better forums on usenet, or websites, devoted to the
subject? Perhaps some sites devoted to wardriving or the equivalent? It's
a bit of a recursive loop, as not knowing what will actually accomplish the
job makes looking other places for other solutions more challenging.

Thanks for suggestions on other venues...

L8R

Skip, passive rehabbing, active to start in a couple of weeks, so I can get
back to refitting!

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

In article ,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

Starting a new thread as the old one led to dead ends.

For a précis on the background, see the thread "Antennas, again, sorta" -
but I'm trying to find an up-the-mast single-item (or single box, anyway)
which will see my wifi connection in my laptop as well as shore points. To
emphasize the point, I don't want to have to connect either a laptop or
permanently mounted computer to a bridge (which would get the job done) via
anything, ethernet, USB active cable, coax or otherwise. Even allowing a
wireless AP/router below would not solve the problem, as I haven't found a
pair which will talk to each other, and I don't want the complexity/extra
wiring that would entail, either, if it would (work). Some sort of
arrangement which would require proprietary eqiupment (Part A will talk to
Part B only if they're both the same manufacturer, e.g, as I can't assure
that any shoreside point would have that manufacturer) likewise isn't
satisfactory. Amplification is a good thing (i.e. 200-1000mw) but the
antennas are what most likely will get the job done, and I have that part
handled.

The problem so far has been that I can't find an AP and Bridge which will
talk to each other. Surely there's something which will work, and can take
common DC power up the mast?

Since nobody here (or, at least, apparently so) knows of such a beast, can
anyone point me to better forums on usenet, or websites, devoted to the
subject? Perhaps some sites devoted to wardriving or the equivalent? It's
a bit of a recursive loop, as not knowing what will actually accomplish the
job makes looking other places for other solutions more challenging.

Thanks for suggestions on other venues...

L8R

Skip, passive rehabbing, active to start in a couple of weeks, so I can get
back to refitting!

You are not likely to find such a box that has universal connectivity,
due to the fact that the "WPA Standard" is not very well defined, and
each OEM tends to extend the Spec with it's own proprietary code.
Also note, that most WPA type Extenders require MAC Address information
of the remote Access Point, which may, or may not, be part of the SSID
Beacon String of the remote Access Point. Seems to "Me" that your
asking for hardware that is 'Not Invented Yet". You could hire a
Development Outfit to write you some really cool code to do what you
want, but it would be expensive, and beyond the capabilities of most
coders, and they would have to have a hardware platform to work with.

Me

"Me" wrote in message
...
You are not likely to find such a box that has universal connectivity,
due to the fact that the "WPA Standard" is not very well defined, and
each OEM tends to extend the Spec with it's own proprietary code.
Also note, that most WPA type Extenders require MAC Address information
of the remote Access Point, which may, or may not, be part of the SSID
Beacon String of the remote Access Point. Seems Thanks, me, for the
followup. One confusion:

How come/can my computer see and talk to shore points without knowing all
the Mac stuff, but a bridge can't?

I acknowledge being just smart enough to be dangerous but implicitly, if
some other device can do it, another should be able to, no?

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

to "Me" that your
asking for hardware that is 'Not Invented Yet". You could hire a
Development Outfit to write you some really cool code to do what you
want, but it would be expensive, and beyond the capabilities of most
coders, and they would have to have a hardware platform to work with.

Me

I only see a bit of this thread - I came in late.

Is what you want is internet connections from your laptop from your
boat while cuising?

I think you are saying you have a Mac. If that is the case then you
should use a phone to connect. I use my powerbook and a cell phone to
connect at 144kbs and the cost is $4.95 a month. If that works for you
and you have a mac, let me know and I will let you know what you need
to do the job.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:29:41 -0400, Skip Gundlach said:
...
How come/can my computer see and talk to shore points without knowing all
the Mac stuff, but a bridge can't?

It doesn't need to. On any network, machines see each other's MAC addresses,
that's what is established when you join the network.

Probably my advice is somewhat confused by your use of the word bridge. In
networks, you might find it easier to think of a bridge as a two-port hub.
Packets that come in one end are duplicated at the other. A bridge that
joins a wireless network and a wired one is not different in this regard,
just the "ports" are internal to the unit, which probably has a wireless
"hub" and an ethernet switch, joined by the bridge.

The problem as I understand what you are trying to do, is that you want
to run the device as an access point in infrastructure BSS (basic service
set) mode, so that your laptop can talk to it as a client, but also to act
as a client and communicate with another access point.

For your laptop to comminucate with your access point, the access point
must be configured to offer a wireless network to join. The "local" wireless
network is identified by a SSID, which really is the mac of the wireless
interface on the access point. On the other hand, to join another wireless
network would mean not doing that, but rather acting as your laptop does
when it joins to your local network.

This is why I suggested the simplest solution is to use two wireless devices
connected *to each other* by ethernet. You have one device configured to
act as the BSS mode access point, and the other to act as a wireless
ethernet client. You'd configure your local wireless network on the first,
and join it with your laptop. You should then be able to communicate with
the other over the wireless link to the access point, and then the ethernet.
You'd then be remote-controlling the masthead "client" device, and use it
to connect to other networks. Realistically, one or other of these devices
would need to also be a router that can do network address translation (NAT)
once the data link layer is established, but that's beyond the scope of
getting that link established in the first place.

It is certainly possible for all this functionality to be combined in one
device, but I'd strongly suspect that no such device exists. Consider the
material above, and the very specific context you are outlining.

I acknowledge being just smart enough to be dangerous but implicitly, if
some other device can do it, another should be able to, no?

Well, you didn't answer my question earlier about whether you were trying
to connect two network devices with a straight through or a crossover cable.
It shouldn't be complex: you can buy pre-made crossover cables as readily
as you can straight through ones.

--Damian

Hi, Damian, and thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm sorry, I appeared to
have missed this one before. It appears it may have the germ of a
solution....

How come/can my computer see and talk to shore points without knowing
all
the Mac stuff, but a bridge can't?

It doesn't need to. On any network, machines see each other's MAC
addresses,
that's what is established when you join the network.

Gotcha, I think. Certainly, when I ask for info on either of the two
programs I currently use (one came with the machine, the other came with the
Hawking external antenna), I can get all the IPs of my machine, the external
machine/network and my assigned address thereon.

Probably my advice is somewhat confused by your use of the word bridge. In
networks, you might find it easier to think of a bridge as a two-port hub.

Gotcha. And, that does help the visualization.

Packets that come in one end are duplicated at the other. A bridge that
joins a wireless network and a wired one is not different in this regard,
just the "ports" are internal to the unit, which probably has a wireless
"hub" and an ethernet switch, joined by the bridge.

Also, gotcha. The antenna is the wireless end, and the RJ45 port is the
wired end, the bridge being the "hub" in the middle. The wireless end can
see any number (in the point-to-multipoint mode) of shoreside "ports" - my
challenge is to choose which I want to talk to.

The problem as I understand what you are trying to do, is that you want
to run the device as an access point in infrastructure BSS (basic service
set) mode, so that your laptop can talk to it as a client, but also to act
as a client and communicate with another access point.

I believe that's correct, though I didn't know the terminology. I just want
to be able to get on my laptop and talk to shore, using (on my laptop)
"masthead" (the name of the port to which my laptop is communicating) to
talk to "shoreside" (the bridge/router/hub which sees shore points), in
order to isolate which of the shore points' info makes it to (and back out
for transmission after I've done something with info) the wifi in my laptop.

For your laptop to comminucate with your access point, the access point
must be configured to offer a wireless network to join. The "local"
wireless
network is identified by a SSID, which really is the mac of the wireless
interface on the access point. On the other hand, to join another wireless
network would mean not doing that, but rather acting as your laptop does
when it joins to your local network.

I'm not quite getting this one. When I crank up the laptop, and the
internal wifi engages, the strongest signal (since it's right above me) will
be "masthead" - so it goes to that one, first. So far, so good. "Masthead
is wired (cat5 crossover) to "shoreside" - which, I hope, will see lots of
points ashore. However, I need to be able to communicate with "shoreside"
in order to tell it which one to which I want to talk. From the above, I
gather there's a challenge in that, somewhere? If "masthead" were something
else, would that solve the problem (that is, not an AP), but still allow
"shoreside" to tell me what it sees, and let me choose?

This is why I suggested the simplest solution is to use two wireless
devices
connected *to each other* by ethernet. You have one device configured to
act as the BSS mode access point, and the other to act as a wireless
ethernet client. You'd configure your local wireless network on the first,
and join it with your laptop. You should then be able to communicate with
the other over the wireless link to the access point, and then the
ethernet.
You'd then be remote-controlling the masthead "client" device, and use it
to connect to other networks. Realistically, one or other of these devices
would need to also be a router that can do network address translation
(NAT)
once the data link layer is established, but that's beyond the scope of
getting that link established in the first place.

Aha :{)) So, given the foregoing...

I do something on my internal wifi configuration to automate the connection
to the BSS (not yet understanding that terminology, but, then, I don't
understand how the cpu does its stuff, either - it's enough that it does!),
which, then, passes me through to the bridge in the boot-up stages, and from
there I choose the shoreside point for communication? For example, in my
bench testing, I gave it the same class of IP as the one I was trying to
reach on the bench. Thus, I fixed the IP in the wifi as, say,
192.168.100.160, so it could talk to my bridge which has a default of
192.168.100.1. If that's the key, I'm certainly ok with that (but it
apparently will have to be something other than the same AP as I had
connected to the bridge, as - for whatever reason - that seems to be the
cause of the IP conflicts, despite their being totally disparate
configurations [one being, e.g., 192etc and the other 10.10.10.150]) - but
will need to find out what other device I need to get.

And, to reiterate, having apparently not been clear in the past, I have no
problem with connecting the two of these, however needed (presumed XO
cat5) - I just don't want to connect my computer with a wire to anything.
From what you've said, that's a do-able project. (?)

It is certainly possible for all this functionality to be combined in one
device, but I'd strongly suspect that no such device exists. Consider the
material above, and the very specific context you are outlining.

Heh. One device is just frosting. I can rube goldberg with the best of
them :{))

I acknowledge being just smart enough to be dangerous but implicitly, if
some other device can do it, another should be able to, no?

Well, you didn't answer my question earlier about whether you were trying
to connect two network devices with a straight through or a crossover
cable.
It shouldn't be complex: you can buy pre-made crossover cables as readily
as you can straight through ones.

Gotcha. I made up a 3" so as to not waste space with unused length in the
NEMA, but they still didn't work, whether factory 6' or my 3", on the bench.
Sorry I missed that one.

So, given all the foregoing, I've got, in hand, two (only might need one)
senao 2611 highpower (200mw, 23dB) deluxe units. Curiously, they are just
the PCMCIA 200mw card on a board; they have two antenna attachment points to
which one can put an external antenna. The vendor, in frustration, had me
take one out and put it into the laptop to see if that changed matters, and
to prove that it worked there. Either can be either a bridge, in either of
point-to-point or point-to-multipoint modes, or an AP. Their software is
accessible via http address, and shows which IPs are 'associated' in the
case of the AP (which ones have been recognized) and among which to choose
in the case of the bridge.

Given that they've emphatically shown that they won't play well together
when we try to be able to talk to them (needing a specific mac, rather than
dhcp, else we couldn't find them? I'd been instructed by the vendor to begin
by naming my wifi or nic, whichever I was on during the bench tests, the
same basic [i.e. 192.168etc] set as the device), I can't seem to use the two
of them. However, as they're great items by themselves, perhaps something
else than the AP to connect to the bridge is the solution?

Thanks again for your input. I think we may possibly be going down the
right trail.

L8R

Skip, awaiting the arrival of the nav computer later today, on which all
this will happen!

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

In article ,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
You are not likely to find such a box that has universal connectivity,
due to the fact that the "WPA Standard" is not very well defined, and
each OEM tends to extend the Spec with it's own proprietary code.
Also note, that most WPA type Extenders require MAC Address information
of the remote Access Point, which may, or may not, be part of the SSID
Beacon String of the remote Access Point. Seems Thanks, me, for the
followup. One confusion:

How come/can my computer see and talk to shore points without knowing all
the Mac stuff, but a bridge can't?

I acknowledge being just smart enough to be dangerous but implicitly, if
some other device can do it, another should be able to, no?

L8R

Skip

Because your computer isn't using the WPA Protocol, but is using Client
Protocols, and what your Masthead repeater is trying to do, is use a
form of WPA that isn't universally accepted by all OEM's hardware. If
you had a wire up the mast then you could put hardware up their that
acted like a Client, but you refuse to consider that, so your busted
with no solution.

Me talking to just another appliance operator......

try one of the networking forums either under comp. or microsoft
groups.

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Starting a new thread as the old one led to dead ends.

For a précis on the background, see the thread "Antennas, again, sorta" -
but I'm trying to find an up-the-mast single-item (or single box, anyway)
which will see my wifi connection in my laptop as well as shore points. To
emphasize the point, I don't want to have to connect either a laptop or
permanently mounted computer to a bridge (which would get the job done) via
anything, ethernet, USB active cable, coax or otherwise. Even allowing a
wireless AP/router below would not solve the problem, as I haven't found a
pair which will talk to each other, and I don't want the complexity/extra
wiring that would entail, either, if it would (work). Some sort of
arrangement which would require proprietary eqiupment (Part A will talk to
Part B only if they're both the same manufacturer, e.g, as I can't assure
that any shoreside point would have that manufacturer) likewise isn't
satisfactory. Amplification is a good thing (i.e. 200-1000mw) but the
antennas are what most likely will get the job done, and I have that part
handled.

The problem so far has been that I can't find an AP and Bridge which will
talk to each other. Surely there's something which will work, and can take
common DC power up the mast?

Since nobody here (or, at least, apparently so) knows of such a beast, can
anyone point me to better forums on usenet, or websites, devoted to the
subject? Perhaps some sites devoted to wardriving or the equivalent? It's
a bit of a recursive loop, as not knowing what will actually accomplish the
job makes looking other places for other solutions more challenging.

Thanks for suggestions on other venues...

Skip, have you tried changing the IP address of a second wireless
router, and connecting the two together by ethernet? It seems an AE
up the mast can't see your wireless laptop, and a deck height ae
can't reach the shore?

One might expect the routers to be connected to an on board computer
to act as a bridge, but I don't see why, short of software patches,
it couldn't work without a bridge.

Hasn't anyone tried using two wireless hubs at home?

Terry K

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

Starting a new thread as the old one led to dead ends.

For a précis on the background, see the thread "Antennas, again, sorta" -
snip

SMC makes a wireless ethernet adapter:

http://www.smc.com/index.cfm?event=v...&scid=&pid=498

two of these can form a wireless connection between 2 wired lans. OK price,
($69.00 or so) and great range +or - 1500 feet.