Frank Hagan wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:35:27 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


The reason for the response is that Yoav is attempting to market his W
boat as a "safer" alternative to a kayak and as offering the same level
of performance, which is absolute BS on both counts. If one is a
kayaker, the differences are quite obvious, as are the limitations to
his design. However, all that may not be germaine to this discussion,
since the intent is to solicit builders. If the design appeals to you,
by all means build one.


OK, I think I get you now. I think it looks like it would compare
favorably to a poly sit-on-top kayak, but I suspect you're thinking of
a traditional kayak, with a spray skirt, etc.

Precisely.

I can't say how it
would compare from experience, since I haven't tried either one, but
you might be right that a traditional kayak has performance
advantages.

Trust me, it does.

As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I would suggest the former, but I'm biased because I fit into that
category. I've also seen exactly how quickly inexperienced/unprpared
kayakers and other boaters can get into serious trouble. The claims
being made for the W Boat make it seem like it's absolutely safe, which
any experienced boat knows is absolutely untrue. Such claims could lure
someone into getting hurt.

I have some experience with poly "sit on top" kayaks. The W boat
design would probably have more initial stability than the
sit-on-tops.

Definitely.

He has a lot of pictures of people using it to fish
from, and it looks like it makes sense for that kind of application.
The sit-on-tops have a lot of wetted surface, so if the W boat does
reduce that for the same load, then paddling would be easier.

Agreed.

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.

Sure. If it suits your needs, build one. Just don't think that it's a
substitute for a kayak. It's simply too different and it has some
serious limitations.

On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:07:38 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I would suggest the former, but I'm biased because I fit into that
category. I've also seen exactly how quickly inexperienced/unprpared
kayakers and other boaters can get into serious trouble. The claims

I have seen stats reported for injuries in watercraft, with the
measurement being used stated as "deaths or injuries per mile" (or
some measure similar to that). Kayaks and canoes came out as the most
dangerous.

Anybody ... and I mean anybody ... can rent a blow molded polyurethane
kayak in our local waters and paddle around for an hour or two. They
generally can't get back on them after falling off, so they use the
kayak as a kickboard to get to someplace where they can get back on
top of it. I suspect that type of person would be in a very dangerous
situation in a traditional, sit inside kayak with a spray skirt.

I asked Yoav about getting back onto a W Boat, and he said it might be
a bit easier, but its still an issue (children can come up between the
sponsons and, if they have the body strength, pull themselves up.
Adults find it easier to grip the W Boat, but just like any other blow
molded kayak, its easy to push it away from you when you're trying to
get back up on it).

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.

Sure. If it suits your needs, build one. Just don't think that it's a
substitute for a kayak. It's simply too different and it has some
serious limitations.

Well, I'm actually thinking of something a little different. I'd like
to see if the W Boat design would lend itself to a low power runabout
type of thing ... a two-seater with a small outboard ... 5 hp? ...
that would get up to 7 - 10 knots. If it remains stable with the 40#
on the stern, then it might be a fun little boat.
- - -
http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

Frank Hagan wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:07:38 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I would suggest the former, but I'm biased because I fit into that
category. I've also seen exactly how quickly inexperienced/unprpared
kayakers and other boaters can get into serious trouble. The claims

I have seen stats reported for injuries in watercraft, with the
measurement being used stated as "deaths or injuries per mile" (or
some measure similar to that). Kayaks and canoes came out as the most
dangerous.

The stats are somewhat misleading, as on average there are only ~12
paddler deaths per year, nationwide. While it's true that the percentage
is higher based on time, miles, number of boaters or whatever, the
actual number of deaths is a tiny fraction of that of other boater
groups. Interestingly, the paddlers most likely to die are fishermen in
canoes, due primarily to a general lack of PFD use and the likelihood of
alcohol being involved. Whitewater paddlers come next and sea kayakers
are a distant third.

Anybody ... and I mean anybody ... can rent a blow molded polyurethane
kayak in our local waters and paddle around for an hour or two. They
generally can't get back on them after falling off, so they use the
kayak as a kickboard to get to someplace where they can get back on
top of it. I suspect that type of person would be in a very dangerous
situation in a traditional, sit inside kayak with a spray skirt.

That type of person is in a very dangerous situation any time they're in
more than a few feet of water more than a few feet from shore,
particularly if the water is cold. The problem is that they don't
realize the danger they're in. I see clueless people out on the water
all the time. The fact that there isn't an enormous number of deaths per
year is a testament to the seaworthiness of kayaks and just plain dumb luck.

I asked Yoav about getting back onto a W Boat, and he said it might be
a bit easier, but its still an issue (children can come up between the
sponsons and, if they have the body strength, pull themselves up.
Adults find it easier to grip the W Boat, but just like any other blow
molded kayak, its easy to push it away from you when you're trying to
get back up on it).

The extra height of the W Boat does seem like it would make it more
difficult to get back on. With sit-in or sit-on-top kayaks, it's really
a matter or knowing the proper techniques for self-rescue. It's not
difficult, but you need to know how and practice it BEFORE you get into
that situation.

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.

Sure. If it suits your needs, build one. Just don't think that it's a
substitute for a kayak. It's simply too different and it has some
serious limitations.

Well, I'm actually thinking of something a little different. I'd like
to see if the W Boat design would lend itself to a low power runabout
type of thing ... a two-seater with a small outboard ... 5 hp? ...
that would get up to 7 - 10 knots. If it remains stable with the 40#
on the stern, then it might be a fun little boat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but small, powered catamarans/twin hulls are
nothing new, right?

On Thu, 12 May 2005 12:12:22 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

Frank Hagan wrote:

Well, I'm actually thinking of something a little different. I'd like
to see if the W Boat design would lend itself to a low power runabout
type of thing ... a two-seater with a small outboard ... 5 hp? ...
that would get up to 7 - 10 knots. If it remains stable with the 40#
on the stern, then it might be a fun little boat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but small, powered catamarans/twin hulls are
nothing new, right?

Yep, you're right ... they have been made before, but I haven't found
plans for any. And this does give me a chance to work out plans
myself with advice from someone who has toyed with the concept quite a
bit.
- - -
http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper