| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Plywood from China
Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has this but it
is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was completely sheathed in a waterproof material. |
Waterproffing is not the problem here. Pretty much ALL plywood is made with
waterproof glue. Marine plywood is about the highest grade of plywood due to it's ridgid spec requirement. Most plywood contains numerous cracks, voids, and large knots in the interior laminations. Often they will be repaired on the outside layers only. Marine plywood has very few cracks, NO voids, and knots must be under 1/2 inch. Pay the extra money and only do the job once. Cut this cost corner at extreme risk of failure. Jon "Pop" wrote in message ... Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has this but it is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was completely sheathed in a waterproof material. |
"Danielle Anderson" wrote in message .. . Waterproffing is not the problem here. Pretty much ALL plywood is made with waterproof glue. Marine plywood is about the highest grade of plywood due to it's ridgid spec requirement. Most plywood contains numerous cracks, voids, and large knots in the interior laminations. Often they will be repaired on the outside layers only. Marine plywood has very few cracks, NO voids, and knots must be under 1/2 inch. Pay the extra money and only do the job once. Cut this cost corner at extreme risk of failure. Jon "Pop" wrote in message ... Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has this but it is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was completely sheathed in a waterproof material. Use some Chinese tools, burn some Chinese bulbs, drive a chinese car, and then make your decision. Remember, most of the time you get what you pay for. Kevin |
I was out paddling a new plywood box this week as soon as the ice was off the pond. I like the really cheap virola underlayment from Home Depot for it's light weigth and flexibility and use if for boatbuilding but don't recommend it. After paddling around in the pond for an hour or so I noticed a crack in the thin face ply on the bottom about 4 ft long. At home I poked a blade into the crack and found it was a longitudinal seam between two sheets of veneer. Looks like the face veneers were not edge glued so I scraped out the seam and after leaving it to dry for a day filled it with epoxy mixed with home made wood flour. Virola is not from China. It's from Brazil. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Right, but what's your "mission?" I've been reasonably satisfied with most
Chinese tools, by: - regarding them as expendable - ignoring aesthetics A case in point, my angle grinders, on sale for about ten dollars (vs Bosch at $70). They sound terrible (square cut gears), and they get hot, but they remove weld metal and I don't cry when I drop one. I'm a hobbyist. If I were trying to earn a living with them, it would be a different matter. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Kevin Gunther" wrote in message ... Use some Chinese tools, burn some Chinese bulbs, drive a chinese car, and then make your decision. Remember, most of the time you get what you pay for. |
Roger Derby wrote: Right, but what's your "mission?" I've been reasonably satisfied with most Chinese tools, by: - regarding them as expendable - ignoring aesthetics A case in point, my angle grinders, on sale for about ten dollars (vs Bosch at $70). They sound terrible (square cut gears), and they get hot, but they remove weld metal and I don't cry when I drop one. I'm a hobbyist. If I were trying to earn a living with them, it would be a different matter. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Kevin Gunther" wrote in message ... Use some Chinese tools, burn some Chinese bulbs, drive a chinese car, and then make your decision. Remember, most of the time you get what you pay for. I guess I am what you might consider an "extreme hobbiest" then. But I still insist on high end tools. The ten dollar grinder will not be balanced like the Bosch or Porter Cable so it will leave rings and will lead to much more hand sanding, and a loss of much material and time. Even if you are a hobbiest, you want your project to be good, weather it is aesthetics, structural integerity, whatever, you will have a better project with better tools. We are very particular from baseball gloves, to computer printers, to athletic socks, we find that life is easier with better tools, it just is. As to the plywood question, it fits the mold. If you want no voids, repaired knots, and thin skins, go with marine plywood. If you want to have a piece of material that is all that, no rubber plugs, equal plys, and it bends fair (no interior knots) and stays well, etc.. Go with something rated as BS1088. Not only is it structurally superior, but it makes working the wood a pleasure instead of blasting through that yellowpine splintered crap they sell as marine ply now adays.. Just a rant, Scotty |
When you say "China", I think "yeah, right". There is absolutely nothing guaranteed about Chinese quality. They can and will cheat whenever they can. They are still a communist country and are very difficult to deal with legally. I'm not just spouting off ...I work for a blue-chip high tech firm and we've had to chase down exactly these issues ...provision of products not meeting specifications or quality requirements, using substandard materials rather than what we asked for, not protecting intellectual property (confidential disclosures, nondisclosure agreements, patents, etc are not respected), and using Kopy Kat materials and products from Chinese companies that are illegally copying and violating the patents owned by western nations. Chasing things down legally is an expensive dead-end. Like I said, it's a big communist country that has little intention to be influenced by your concerns, even if they are ethically correct and the country WOULD benefit by cooperating with rather than ignoring your concerns. Taiwan is little better. That said, I would not trust the adhesives in plywood from China to always be correct. I would boil test a sample from every piece of plywood that I got and personally inspect the wood itself too. You might find variation in wood species in addition to variation in what adhesive they used. To a slightly lesser extent, these same issues apply to wood obtained from 3rd world countries like the Philippines and Malaysia too. Wood from Europe, Israel, Canada, or the United States will in general NOT have these issues, but keep in mind that much of the available wood (especially Meranti, Lauan, and Honduras or Philippine Mahogany) is imported from the countries that have more of a quality issue than others. Also, check your ply for squareness ...many of these other countries just don't have high enough quality control and non-rectangular plywood is common. Even the more reliable countries are getting more slack on producing nice rectangular wood. All wood should be encapsulated with epoxy to waterproof it, and any species that may be subject to splitting or checking would benefit from at least a light layer of fiberglass, even if only 1-1/2 ounces. Brian D "Danielle Anderson" wrote in message .. . Waterproffing is not the problem here. Pretty much ALL plywood is made with waterproof glue. Marine plywood is about the highest grade of plywood due to it's ridgid spec requirement. Most plywood contains numerous cracks, voids, and large knots in the interior laminations. Often they will be repaired on the outside layers only. Marine plywood has very few cracks, NO voids, and knots must be under 1/2 inch. Pay the extra money and only do the job once. Cut this cost corner at extreme risk of failure. Jon "Pop" wrote in message ... Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has this but it is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was completely sheathed in a waterproof material. |
I built my MiniCups from cheapo plywood bathroom underlayment and now I
regret it. Should have used marine ply. The underlayment has serious voids and places where there seems to be no glue. It isnt exactly waterproof either and water soaks right through. I am now glass and epoxy reinforcing them. The dinghy I built with marine ply seems very strong with no voids. Of course, it is also painted with epoxy. I would not willingly buy anything from China as their politics suck, I object to slave labor and support the self determination of Taiwan. Sorry about the political rant. Brian D wrote: When you say "China", I think "yeah, right". There is absolutely nothing guaranteed about Chinese quality. They can and will cheat whenever they can. They are still a communist country and are very difficult to deal with legally. I'm not just spouting off ...I work for a blue-chip high tech firm and we've had to chase down exactly these issues ...provision of products not meeting specifications or quality requirements, using substandard materials rather than what we asked for, not protecting intellectual property (confidential disclosures, nondisclosure agreements, patents, etc are not respected), and using Kopy Kat materials and products from Chinese companies that are illegally copying and violating the patents owned by western nations. Chasing things down legally is an expensive dead-end. Like I said, it's a big communist country that has little intention to be influenced by your concerns, even if they are ethically correct and the country WOULD benefit by cooperating with rather than ignoring your concerns. Taiwan is little better. That said, I would not trust the adhesives in plywood from China to always be correct. I would boil test a sample from every piece of plywood that I got and personally inspect the wood itself too. You might find variation in wood species in addition to variation in what adhesive they used. To a slightly lesser extent, these same issues apply to wood obtained from 3rd world countries like the Philippines and Malaysia too. Wood from Europe, Israel, Canada, or the United States will in general NOT have these issues, but keep in mind that much of the available wood (especially Meranti, Lauan, and Honduras or Philippine Mahogany) is imported from the countries that have more of a quality issue than others. Also, check your ply for squareness ...many of these other countries just don't have high enough quality control and non-rectangular plywood is common. Even the more reliable countries are getting more slack on producing nice rectangular wood. All wood should be encapsulated with epoxy to waterproof it, and any species that may be subject to splitting or checking would benefit from at least a light layer of fiberglass, even if only 1-1/2 ounces. Brian D "Danielle Anderson" wrote in message .. . Waterproffing is not the problem here. Pretty much ALL plywood is made with waterproof glue. Marine plywood is about the highest grade of plywood due to it's ridgid spec requirement. Most plywood contains numerous cracks, voids, and large knots in the interior laminations. Often they will be repaired on the outside layers only. Marine plywood has very few cracks, NO voids, and knots must be under 1/2 inch. Pay the extra money and only do the job once. Cut this cost corner at extreme risk of failure. Jon "Pop" wrote in message ... Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has this but it is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was completely sheathed in a waterproof material. |
At a plant tour in HuangPu (I won't mention what company was involved), they
showed us how nice the employee apartments were. Apparently, they bring folks in from out in the country to work at low wages in the city. The "apartments" had a store and various other things, but after awhile we noticed that there were no families, no kids. The workers charge against their paychecks. Looked like indentured slaves to me (22 cents per hour was a typical labor rate). I've seen more than one analysis that claims there is about to be a labor revolution in China ...these people are tired of doing all the work, getting low pay and no benefits, and they aren't going to do it anymore. The unrest is growing. When all costs are considered, manufacturing in China is only 30-40% cheaper than in the US ...the pendulum will come back, don't worry. Times are changing. And if you're too worried about China being a super power economically, consider how fast it can change when the economics change, or if they get uppity and threaten Taiwan too much (or actually do something about it.) Here's a couple of clues: a) How many products are invented by the Chinese, then produced in China, then sold world wide ...versus how many are invented somewhere else but are *manufactured* in China? b) How many American or European companies are investing in China, paying for the building of factories and buildings with their own money? and c) How many western nations offer mutual funds and other investment vehicles that focus on the Chinese economy? It's a paper tiger, friends. They invent nothing on their own and the primary attraction is cheap labor that'll likely go away. If the cheap labor folks get more money, then it won't take much to equalize the cost of business, there versus here, and the happy happy joy joy ride will be over. In spite of oodles of companies doing manufacturing over there, note that investors vote against investing in China. Last I heard, only one company could be found that had Chinese investment funds that you could participate in. The investors understand the risk ...and the risk will return the work to other locations. (I'm betting on eastern Europe, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, etc. ....NOT western Europe and the United States.) The EU is stable and the US is on a slide... damn fools. Brian D wrote in message oups.com... I built my MiniCups from cheapo plywood bathroom underlayment and now I regret it. Should have used marine ply. The underlayment has serious voids and places where there seems to be no glue. It isnt exactly waterproof either and water soaks right through. I am now glass and epoxy reinforcing them. The dinghy I built with marine ply seems very strong with no voids. Of course, it is also painted with epoxy. I would not willingly buy anything from China as their politics suck, I object to slave labor and support the self determination of Taiwan. Sorry about the political rant. Brian D wrote: When you say "China", I think "yeah, right". There is absolutely nothing guaranteed about Chinese quality. They can and will cheat whenever they can. They are still a communist country and are very difficult to deal with legally. I'm not just spouting off ...I work for a blue-chip high tech firm and we've had to chase down exactly these issues ...provision of products not meeting specifications or quality requirements, using substandard materials rather than what we asked for, not protecting intellectual property (confidential disclosures, nondisclosure agreements, patents, etc are not respected), and using Kopy Kat materials and products from Chinese companies that are illegally copying and violating the patents owned by western nations. Chasing things down legally is an expensive dead-end. Like I said, it's a big communist country that has little intention to be influenced by your concerns, even if they are ethically correct and the country WOULD benefit by cooperating with rather than ignoring your concerns. Taiwan is little better. That said, I would not trust the adhesives in plywood from China to always be correct. I would boil test a sample from every piece of plywood that I got and personally inspect the wood itself too. You might find variation in wood species in addition to variation in what adhesive they used. To a slightly lesser extent, these same issues apply to wood obtained from 3rd world countries like the Philippines and Malaysia too. Wood from Europe, Israel, Canada, or the United States will in general NOT have these issues, but keep in mind that much of the available wood (especially Meranti, Lauan, and Honduras or Philippine Mahogany) is imported from the countries that have more of a quality issue than others. Also, check your ply for squareness ...many of these other countries just don't have high enough quality control and non-rectangular plywood is common. Even the more reliable countries are getting more slack on producing nice rectangular wood. All wood should be encapsulated with epoxy to waterproof it, and any species that may be subject to splitting or checking would benefit from at least a light layer of fiberglass, even if only 1-1/2 ounces. Brian D "Danielle Anderson" wrote in message .. . Waterproffing is not the problem here. Pretty much ALL plywood is made with waterproof glue. Marine plywood is about the highest grade of plywood due to it's ridgid spec requirement. Most plywood contains numerous cracks, voids, and large knots in the interior laminations. Often they will be repaired on the outside layers only. Marine plywood has very few cracks, NO voids, and knots must be under 1/2 inch. Pay the extra money and only do the job once. Cut this cost corner at extreme risk of failure. Jon "Pop" wrote in message ... Has anyone used the 1/2 in. plywood from China, Home Depot has this but it is interior grade, colud it be used for boat building if it was completely sheathed in a waterproof material. |
1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and nothing else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone. If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply. 2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down, even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build up their membership again. As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan". Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a mountain of insupporatble debt. All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs.. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
A friend's wife (native of Panama) told me her kids had asked why everything
was made in China, and she had told them that it was because people couldn't afford things made in the US. True, sadly true. If we used a little foresight to protect our markets like other countries, goods produced in the US would still be high but so would wages, and American workers would be able to afford $40 jeans. Instead we buy $14 jeans at Walmart. Can't buy electricity at Walmart. Don't pay house payments to Walmart. Our money goes to China and it's used to build China's military might. America's average income is down .6% and corporate profits are up 60%. Do the math. I don't think it's a slide, more of a plummet. All empires fall. MMC "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... 1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and nothing else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone. If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply. 2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down, even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build up their membership again. As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan". Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a mountain of insupporatble debt. All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs.. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Unions are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold, cost of manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there is no need for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who don't have our best interests in mind. We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings both ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come back up ....at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work within the system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule. You have to be willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then you take what you get and have no reason to complain. May the best man (woman, country, region) win. Brian D "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... 1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and nothing else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone. If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply. 2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down, even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build up their membership again. As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan". Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a mountain of insupporatble debt. All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs.. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
2. "Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down......." Mr. Watt , you apparently opine that you are over paid. |
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:42 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something .......and in reply I say!: How on earth do you get "socialist" out of what is written by Mr Watt? Apart from that, try arguing the point, without the invective and labelling. Many lands that "experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams" also causes extreme poverty for those unable, for many reasons often beyond their control, or unwilling because of their moral outlook, to take whatever they can whenever they can from the purse. Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. 2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because ............. retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build up their membership again. ************************************************** **************************************** Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are not something, you probably are. Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! ") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/ |
"Brian D" ) writes: Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. I've been fighting Canadian socialism for most of my adult life. And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Up here that's mostly PUBLIC SECTOR UNION labour, and with 18% of the Ontario workforce in the public sector they command a lot of votes. It's what comes from socialism, ie public ownership, and public control of private property. Unlike the US we do not have private property protection in our constitution. I hope the US pulls through. You've been carrying the cost of global peace for quite a while. Everyone expects the Yanks, among other things, to patrol the seas and oceans and pay the cost. Before them it was the Brits who also charted the seas and oceans at public expense for future generations of boatbuilders. But when the Brits asked the Yanks to help pay the cost the Yanks got ****ed of and revolted. The Yanks have been smarter, paying for foreign goods in US dollars and them devaluing the dollar. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Brian D a écrit :
Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Unions are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold, cost of manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there is no need for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who don't have our best interests in mind. We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings both ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come back up ...at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work within the system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule. You have to be willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then you take what you get and have no reason to complain. May the best man (woman, country, region) win. Brian D You should watch again "roger and me" or "the big one" to have a clear sight on the "life's dreams" of these american citizens.. Of course they are not part of the "happy few" that live the american dream.. |
Same way I get it from your post. When someone has disdain for success and then tries to rationalize it with rhetoric, then what can I say? Which political system thinks like that? 'Bring down' those wages Watt says. Why? Ever thought about increasing world-wide productivity, local markets and those abroad? Where there are people and resources, there is room for a who new economy. The US isn't the only place to produce products and to sell them. China could do it all on their own if the Communist government got out of the way. Squelch a free market in the name of 'fairness' or 'equalizing wages' or any other non-free, non-motivating artificial philosophy and you're dead in the water ...doomed to be nothing more than another philosophical failure. When people from poor nations come to the US, their first question is "Where are the poor people?". Yes, there are poor people here ...many in hopeless situations, but it wasn't caused by capitalism. It's caused by drugs, promiscuity, and lack of effort. It's a behavioral issue. I know that in some environments that you'd have to be nearly super human to overcome the culture/attitudes in order for you to succeed and that's very sad. That's one of the factors that leads to these problems, but it's still a behavioral problem. People have to believe in themselves and in their ability to succeed, but in many areas that is asking a bit too much. I wish I had a solution. I really do ...I'm not trying to be mean here, just objective. And again, unless you live here, you are speaking from a vicarious experience at most so don't get too bent out of shape on philosophies until your country proves itself to be our equal. If governments spent more time getting out of the way, then more people would produce more and sell more and live better ...it's a deceptively simple equation that we've proved works. If in a free society, people choose to live on excuses instead of actions, then who are we to blame? A friend of mine from India came here and went to college, graduating without any school loans and with a good GPA. Under the agreement that this person was constrained by, they were not allowed to work off campus. They were not allowed to drive. In those conditions and without any financial sponsor, this person succeeded because they chose to. People need to understand the value in that, what places like the US provide ...the opportunity to succeed if you are willing to make the effort. People here have no excuses that cannot be overcome by their own free will. And BTW, before you say something like "doing whatever they can from the purse", how about if you say "they should be doing whatever they can by the sweat of their brow and the innovations in their head" instead? Rather than play the victim, shouldn't they choose to be the success? This is what this country was built on, the attitude of choosing to succeed. There is much to emulate nowadays, so why don't they? Brian "Old Nick" wrote in message news:42532286.329671590@localhost... On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:42 -0700, "Brian D" wrote something ......and in reply I say!: How on earth do you get "socialist" out of what is written by Mr Watt? Apart from that, try arguing the point, without the invective and labelling. Many lands that "experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams" also causes extreme poverty for those unable, for many reasons often beyond their control, or unwilling because of their moral outlook, to take whatever they can whenever they can from the purse. Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. 2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because ............ retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build up their membership again. ************************************************** **************************************** Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are not something, you probably are. Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! ") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/ |
Thanks. Hope I didn't come across too strongly. Now that I'm off my "choose to succeed and do it in a free society" podium, I'll admit that the US has gained much from it's economic and political strong-arming. That's not so right ...better to play the ball than the field. I wish everyone had a free government, free people, and a free market-driven capitalistic society ...they'd be able to fight the strong-arming much more effectively. Brian "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... "Brian D" ) writes: Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. I've been fighting Canadian socialism for most of my adult life. And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Up here that's mostly PUBLIC SECTOR UNION labour, and with 18% of the Ontario workforce in the public sector they command a lot of votes. It's what comes from socialism, ie public ownership, and public control of private property. Unlike the US we do not have private property protection in our constitution. I hope the US pulls through. You've been carrying the cost of global peace for quite a while. Everyone expects the Yanks, among other things, to patrol the seas and oceans and pay the cost. Before them it was the Brits who also charted the seas and oceans at public expense for future generations of boatbuilders. But when the Brits asked the Yanks to help pay the cost the Yanks got ****ed of and revolted. The Yanks have been smarter, paying for foreign goods in US dollars and them devaluing the dollar. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Sounds like you got a bad impression. I've lived all over this country and I see people living the American Dream everywhere ...real life, not movies. Those that choose to succeed anyway. Many are happy to live off the fat of the government while others pay for it, or to continue in poverty. That's their free choice. As mentioned in another email, in some regions of the country it's hard to be raised in the environment that you were born into and still have a positive attitude about yourself and what can be done, but that does NOT mean that it can't be done. People break out of those situations all the time. Hard? Hell yes, but POSSIBLE. Sure beats the 'NOT possible' you find in so many other places in this world. Nobody ever gave me a nickel and my parents were broke (still are ...by their own choices). I'm living the American Dream by my own effort, 100%. Big house, over $100k salary, family, security ...and with no help from anybody other than myself. Where there's a will, there's a way. You prefer Europe? What do you have to come up with as a down payment for a real house on a real piece of land? 50%? More? And how much does that house cost? How long, at your current income and tax rate does it take to save that much money? What is your current tax rate? Over 50%? That's not success... Brian "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... Brian D a écrit : Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before you judge it. And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Unions are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold, cost of manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there is no need for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who don't have our best interests in mind. We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings both ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come back up ...at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work within the system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule. You have to be willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then you take what you get and have no reason to complain. May the best man (woman, country, region) win. Brian D You should watch again "roger and me" or "the big one" to have a clear sight on the "life's dreams" of these american citizens.. Of course they are not part of the "happy few" that live the american dream.. |
You prefer Europe? What do you have to come up with as a down payment for a real house on a real piece of land? 50%? More? And how much does that house cost? How long, at your current income and tax rate does it take to save that much money? What is your current tax rate? Over 50%? That's not success... Yes I do.. I have a 50K (Euros, 1.3US$) income, My wife has a 30K, I own a lovely house among pinetrees on the riviera, etc.. AND I have social security a 100%, Unemployment protection (57% on 3 years in case), Only VAT on merchandises (no local sales taxes), and my tax rate is 19.61 % (I paid it 2 days ago..).. not a penny more.. And I'm only an upper middle class man.. not a "happy few"... Many people here earn that much and taxes are lowering from year to year due to the willing of our goverment (It prefers to overtax foreign companies ;-) I won't learn to a US citizen what protectionism is ;-) ) Of course there is poverty too, but the rate of people living under the UNO minimal vital income is far lower than in the US.. Of course You may love your country which is your absolute right (I should say is even almost a duty),as much as I love mine, but keep an eye open, paradise is not your country neither is it mine.. ;-) All this is propaganda stuff.. Cheers, Phil. |
"Brian D" wrote in message ... By the way?? How is that Chinese ply? kevin |
Are you in France? Doesn't sound so bad to me. Others that I've spoken to
had quite a different story to tell, so it must vary a lot country by country I'd say. Using your 1.3 ratio BTW, my wife and I have a joint income of $130K Euros and this is not unusual ...but our combined tax rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age requirement, etc ....same thing as 'going away'). If our retirement keeps on like it has (it includes world wide investments for diversity and growth), then our income will remain unchanged when we retire and we'll have medical at the same rate. Sounds like you and I are doing very much the same, maybe you are doing a bit better. In this country, I'd say we are middle to upper-middle class. Not tooo upper though. Just OK. We don't drive Mercedes... Dodge and Chevy is more like it. Yes, there is no paradise for sure, but freedom to succeed on your own is a huge factor that should never be taken away from people. Brian "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... You prefer Europe? What do you have to come up with as a down payment for a real house on a real piece of land? 50%? More? And how much does that house cost? How long, at your current income and tax rate does it take to save that much money? What is your current tax rate? Over 50%? That's not success... Yes I do.. I have a 50K (Euros, 1.3US$) income, My wife has a 30K, I own a lovely house among pinetrees on the riviera, etc.. AND I have social security a 100%, Unemployment protection (57% on 3 years in case), Only VAT on merchandises (no local sales taxes), and my tax rate is 19.61 % (I paid it 2 days ago..).. not a penny more.. And I'm only an upper middle class man.. not a "happy few"... Many people here earn that much and taxes are lowering from year to year due to the willing of our goverment (It prefers to overtax foreign companies ;-) I won't learn to a US citizen what protectionism is ;-) ) Of course there is poverty too, but the rate of people living under the UNO minimal vital income is far lower than in the US.. Of course You may love your country which is your absolute right (I should say is even almost a duty),as much as I love mine, but keep an eye open, paradise is not your country neither is it mine.. ;-) All this is propaganda stuff.. Cheers, Phil. |
Oh that? I dunno ...never bought any. Probably won't. The original poster
probably got scared away... Brian "Kevin Gunther" wrote in message ... "Brian D" wrote in message ... By the way?? How is that Chinese ply? kevin |
Brian, you're doing something wrong. 35% may be your incremental tax rate,
but with a similar income, my actual (paid) rate is below 15% (state and fed). (divide "total tax" by AGI) You're are way above "middle" class! I pulled that "middle class" line on my boss many years ago and was brought up sharp. If you read O'Brian (Aubrey/Maturin) you'll be told that no one ever admits to being either rich or asleep. (Just so there is some nautical reference to this discussion.) Roger (retired) http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Brian D" wrote in message ... but our combined tax rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age requirement, etc ...same thing as 'going away'). |
the age old solution is to build a baot an sail away from it all. I think if you register your boat in Holland you can write if off. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Ooops, yes. You're right. The last increment of pay is what gets taxed at
that rate. I'll have to look and see what the net is. Brian D "Roger Derby" wrote in message nk.net... Brian, you're doing something wrong. 35% may be your incremental tax rate, but with a similar income, my actual (paid) rate is below 15% (state and fed). (divide "total tax" by AGI) You're are way above "middle" class! I pulled that "middle class" line on my boss many years ago and was brought up sharp. If you read O'Brian (Aubrey/Maturin) you'll be told that no one ever admits to being either rich or asleep. (Just so there is some nautical reference to this discussion.) Roger (retired) http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Brian D" wrote in message ... but our combined tax rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age requirement, etc ...same thing as 'going away'). |
I knew a guy in Anchorage, Alaska who tried to do that. He rigged a sail on
a big inner tube and tried to commit suicide by sailing out of Cook Inlet and into the big blue, to last until he died. Darn USCG picked him up halfway down the inlet. When I met him, he was glad he had the bad luck of getting spotted and called a fool. Now he's a psychology teacher ...go figure. Brian D "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... the age old solution is to build a baot an sail away from it all. I think if you register your boat in Holland you can write if off. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Brian D a écrit :
Are you in France? Doesn't sound so bad to me. Others that I've spoken to had quite a different story to tell, so it must vary a lot country by country I'd say. Using your 1.3 ratio BTW, my wife and I have a joint income of $130K Euros and this is not unusual ...but our combined tax rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age requirement, etc ...same thing as 'going away'). If our retirement keeps on like it has (it includes world wide investments for diversity and growth), then our income will remain unchanged when we retire and we'll have medical at the same rate. Sounds like you and I are doing very much the same, maybe you are doing a bit better. In this country, I'd say we are middle to upper-middle class. Not tooo upper though. Just OK. We don't drive Mercedes... Dodge and Chevy is more like it. Yes, there is no paradise for sure, but freedom to succeed on your own is a huge factor that should never be taken away from people. Brian You're right, I'm in France. Of course income and taxes may vary a lot from countries to countries in Europe too.. UK taxes are far Higher for instance. The intersting thing here is that Social security as unemployment insurance is mandatory and directly cut from your wages. It refunds 70% of your medical costs, and you can subscribe to a private complement for 30 euros a month that brings it to 100% for all medical costs.. The interesting thing is that it is taken to the source, so when I get a 50K income, it is after all those insurances are paid, no need to pay further.. and unemployment refunding , although it is 57% of you salary is calculated on a 365 days a year basis.. so if you got 50 K for 12 months based on days worked (12x20 days), you'll be paid on a 30x12 days basis.. for instance, for a 50K income, you'll get a 42.75 K income during 3 years if unemployed during this time.. Retirement is paid partly by the social security, and partly by private companies to whom you have to subscribe when you work (all costs are also cut at the source) and retirement wages may vary from 80% to 100% of your salary depending on which private retirement funds you have chosen to subscribe while you were active. Social security applies event when you are retired and you will in any case get at least 70% refunded. In this country lower middle class is usually around 50K a year for a family although upper middle class is from 60K to 150K.. But i can comfort you.. only a very few drive bmw or Mercedes in this class, at 40 to 100K a bit, they are way to expensive even for a higher middle class family.. most of us drive Renault, Peugeot or Citroen cars (dodge or chevy equivalent here). ;-) French people rather invest in stone than in cars and most families try to have a vacation house in the countryside or at the sea which becomes their everyday's home when they get retired.. Phil. |
Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask
him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the administrators. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... Brian D a écrit : Are you in France? Doesn't sound so bad to me. Others that I've spoken to had quite a different story to tell, so it must vary a lot country by country I'd say. Using your 1.3 ratio BTW, my wife and I have a joint income of $130K Euros and this is not unusual ...but our combined tax rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age requirement, etc ...same thing as 'going away'). If our retirement keeps on like it has (it includes world wide investments for diversity and growth), then our income will remain unchanged when we retire and we'll have medical at the same rate. Sounds like you and I are doing very much the same, maybe you are doing a bit better. In this country, I'd say we are middle to upper-middle class. Not tooo upper though. Just OK. We don't drive Mercedes... Dodge and Chevy is more like it. Yes, there is no paradise for sure, but freedom to succeed on your own is a huge factor that should never be taken away from people. Brian You're right, I'm in France. Of course income and taxes may vary a lot from countries to countries in Europe too.. UK taxes are far Higher for instance. The intersting thing here is that Social security as unemployment insurance is mandatory and directly cut from your wages. It refunds 70% of your medical costs, and you can subscribe to a private complement for 30 euros a month that brings it to 100% for all medical costs.. The interesting thing is that it is taken to the source, so when I get a 50K income, it is after all those insurances are paid, no need to pay further.. and unemployment refunding , although it is 57% of you salary is calculated on a 365 days a year basis.. so if you got 50 K for 12 months based on days worked (12x20 days), you'll be paid on a 30x12 days basis.. for instance, for a 50K income, you'll get a 42.75 K income during 3 years if unemployed during this time.. Retirement is paid partly by the social security, and partly by private companies to whom you have to subscribe when you work (all costs are also cut at the source) and retirement wages may vary from 80% to 100% of your salary depending on which private retirement funds you have chosen to subscribe while you were active. Social security applies event when you are retired and you will in any case get at least 70% refunded. In this country lower middle class is usually around 50K a year for a family although upper middle class is from 60K to 150K.. But i can comfort you.. only a very few drive bmw or Mercedes in this class, at 40 to 100K a bit, they are way to expensive even for a higher middle class family.. most of us drive Renault, Peugeot or Citroen cars (dodge or chevy equivalent here). ;-) French people rather invest in stone than in cars and most families try to have a vacation house in the countryside or at the sea which becomes their everyday's home when they get retired.. Phil. |
Roger Derby a écrit :
Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the administrators. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) phil. |
"Andrew Butchart" ) writes: P.S. - finally the snow's almost gone in Southern Ontario!!!! I was out paddling a new plywood box last week. Jock River canoe race this Saturday (Ottawa). -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Bateaubois wrote:
Roger Derby a écrit : Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the administrators. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) AND, the food is better :) -- Geoff |
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:42:52 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something .......and in reply I say!: Troll is supposed to be an insult. In your case, the only other option is that you are serious. Troll sounds good. ************************************************** **************************************** Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are not something, you probably are. Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! ") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/ |
That's exactly the same rationalization we heard from Mussolini's followers
in the 1930s. Vive Il Duce! The trains run on time. Wasn't it the Russian slaves that rioted when the Tsar freed them? They liked their freedom from responsibility. Roger TAAFL http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... Roger Derby a écrit : Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) |
GeoffC a écrit :
Bateaubois wrote: Roger Derby a écrit : Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the administrators. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) AND, the food is better :) -- Geoff MUCH better, I'd say ;-) -- Phil |
Roger Derby a écrit :
That's exactly the same rationalization we heard from Mussolini's followers in the 1930s. Vive Il Duce! The trains run on time. Wasn't it the Russian slaves that rioted when the Tsar freed them? They liked their freedom from responsibility. Roger TAAFL http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... Roger Derby a écrit : Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) I guess you've been a McCarthy's fan in your young days, huh ? ;-) Ah, I forgot, we do not have patriot acts nor Ashcrofts here, but whe have vote for all, no voting machines, no chetaed polls, freedom of cult, full separation between religion and power, and thousands of years of history to help us to make our mind on what is democracy... Are we soviets ? :-) Phil |
Sounds better than I thought in France. And the food's good. How's the fishing? Brian "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... Brian D a écrit : Are you in France? Doesn't sound so bad to me. Others that I've spoken to had quite a different story to tell, so it must vary a lot country by country I'd say. Using your 1.3 ratio BTW, my wife and I have a joint income of $130K Euros and this is not unusual ...but our combined tax rate (fed plus state) is around 35%. Our social security will dissolve before we get there (or will reduce in benefits, increase in age requirement, etc ...same thing as 'going away'). If our retirement keeps on like it has (it includes world wide investments for diversity and growth), then our income will remain unchanged when we retire and we'll have medical at the same rate. Sounds like you and I are doing very much the same, maybe you are doing a bit better. In this country, I'd say we are middle to upper-middle class. Not tooo upper though. Just OK. We don't drive Mercedes... Dodge and Chevy is more like it. Yes, there is no paradise for sure, but freedom to succeed on your own is a huge factor that should never be taken away from people. Brian You're right, I'm in France. Of course income and taxes may vary a lot from countries to countries in Europe too.. UK taxes are far Higher for instance. The intersting thing here is that Social security as unemployment insurance is mandatory and directly cut from your wages. It refunds 70% of your medical costs, and you can subscribe to a private complement for 30 euros a month that brings it to 100% for all medical costs.. The interesting thing is that it is taken to the source, so when I get a 50K income, it is after all those insurances are paid, no need to pay further.. and unemployment refunding , although it is 57% of you salary is calculated on a 365 days a year basis.. so if you got 50 K for 12 months based on days worked (12x20 days), you'll be paid on a 30x12 days basis.. for instance, for a 50K income, you'll get a 42.75 K income during 3 years if unemployed during this time.. Retirement is paid partly by the social security, and partly by private companies to whom you have to subscribe when you work (all costs are also cut at the source) and retirement wages may vary from 80% to 100% of your salary depending on which private retirement funds you have chosen to subscribe while you were active. Social security applies event when you are retired and you will in any case get at least 70% refunded. In this country lower middle class is usually around 50K a year for a family although upper middle class is from 60K to 150K.. But i can comfort you.. only a very few drive bmw or Mercedes in this class, at 40 to 100K a bit, they are way to expensive even for a higher middle class family.. most of us drive Renault, Peugeot or Citroen cars (dodge or chevy equivalent here). ;-) French people rather invest in stone than in cars and most families try to have a vacation house in the countryside or at the sea which becomes their everyday's home when they get retired.. Phil. |
Especially in Leon.
Brian "GeoffC" wrote in message ... Bateaubois wrote: Roger Derby a écrit : Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the administrators. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) AND, the food is better :) -- Geoff |
And if you buy the plat de jour while traveling, not so expensive either.
And then there's always cheese, bread, and grapes picnicked on the trunk of the car. Did that in east France while looking at cows, who were looking at me. That was about 5 minutes from Switzerland ...another great place to drive around (or ride a bike). Brian "Bateaubois" wrote in message ... GeoffC a écrit : Bateaubois wrote: Roger Derby a écrit : Sounds like the typical government: take the person's money, count it, ask him to say "May I" and then give some of it back. Why do we have armies of accountants to compute income tax on government employees? The money just goes in a circle with a little skim for the administrators. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm Yes and we like it this way... We'd rather have our money usefully used by the govt to build public schools (free), universities(free), hospitals (70% free), roads (Every road is tarred and maintained here..),librairies (free), highways (taxed, but worth it, these are the best quality highways in Europe, perfectly maintained, fine rest areas, gas station every 20 miles, etc.), etc.. than have it going to a few billionaires at the head of zaibatsus for worse purposes.. ;-) AND, the food is better :) -- Geoff MUCH better, I'd say ;-) -- Phil |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:17 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com