Thomas,

Sorry for the acidic tone - this weekend, at the Snow Row in Hull Mass, I
was shown a very interesting, home-designed boat. Construction and finish
were gorgeous, and the builder had gone through remarkable effort to get
"approval" from a testing lab. But it was a radical design, which may - or
may not - work, and it wasn't obvious (to me) that it would meet the
builder's needs.

That brought to mind another story I saw not long ago, a fellow who spent 20
years or so building his dream boat - but he had NEVER been sailing! As I
recall the outcome was not real positive.

There are so many dreamers on this group, who would be well-served buying or
borrowing an older day-sailor, skiff, or runabout, and getting out on the
water for a few days! Sorry I didn't pick up from your note that you are
not in that category...

Hope you have read all of Gerr's and Bolger's books - not for specific
designs, but to understand the thinking. Look at the Atkins catalog. And
'Messing About in Boats' has a lot of good info, especially if you, like me,
are one of the people who enjoys Robb White.

Sal's Dad


As to Jim's warnings: Even the best home-built boat has a resale value
approaching zero. Just please, when you launch a home-designed boat,
take it out a lot, alone. Preferably before you reproduce.

I am not doing this for money :-). If I spend these hours working instead
of designing/building, I could probably buy a very nice boat and still
have money left :-)

I actually already own a 30 ft. yacht from 1937. The whole idea now is
actually not to get a boat, but to build it. Ofcourse I have ideas on how
to use it when it is finished, but the goal is the building of it. The
satisfaction to sail a boat I have build with my own hands. Now the dream
just got one step further - the design.

Best regards,
Thomas

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:00:55 GMT, "Thomas Veber"
wrote:


"Jim Conlin" skrev i meddelandet
...

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.

I certainly understand your arguments, but even Mozard started somewhere.
But probably he did not have newsgroups, books and computer programs to help
him. So hopefully my odds will be better in succeeding :-).

But ofcourse: My posting here is to get ideas and inspiration and good
advice. This could end up with, that I buy one of the many plans available
instead of trying a design myself. But one has to start somewhere...

Best regards,
Thomas

Well, about Mozart. If you were the naval architect equivalent of
Mozart you would have designed and built a good competitive Moth class
boat at the age of five.

You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.



Rodney Myrvaagnes Opinionated old geezer

Brutal dictators are routinely reelected by 90+%
margins. Only in a truly advanced democracy can
one win an election by a negative 600,000 votes.

"Sal's Dad" skrev i meddelandet
...

"approval" from a testing lab. But it was a radical design, which may -
or may not - work, and it wasn't obvious (to me) that it would meet the
builder's needs.

I do not want a radical design, but a classic design. Probably cutter
rigged, and maybe with a gaff or gunther rigg. Furthermore I am willing to
sacrifice comfort for getting a more elegant boat - e.g. by not having a too
tall cabin. Most boats I have seen have a (very) tall cabin, which ofcourse
is needed on small boats to get the comfort. I would rather have a 5 inch
lower cabin but then get a more elegant boat. The "Weekender" is actually a
nice boat, but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building.

That brought to mind another story I saw not long ago, a fellow who spent
20 years or so building his dream boat - but he had NEVER been sailing!
As I recall the outcome was not real positive.

I am very aware of this also. And that is why I want to limit the size to
15-16 feet. A smaller boat should be faster to build (or maybe I should put
my words like this: A smaller boat does not take as long time to build as a
larger boat :-).

Hope you have read all of Gerr's and Bolger's books - not for specific
designs, but to understand the thinking. Look at the Atkins catalog. And
'Messing About in Boats' has a lot of good info, especially if you, like
me, are one of the people who enjoys Robb White.

I will try to find these books. Thank you for the advice.

Best regards,
Thomas

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" skrev i meddelandet
...

Well, about Mozart. If you were the naval architect equivalent of
Mozart you would have designed and built a good competitive Moth class
boat at the age of five.

You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

It was not very fair to make a comparision with Mozart, I know. And I am not
a naval architect, and maybe I will put the whole project on ice again. But
even if I do put the project on ice, I did a try.

When you have a dream, I think that you owe yourself to try to realise it.
Else you will end up as a grumpy, old man saying to yourself on your last
days: "Why didn't I do this, and why didn't I do that?". I think it is much
better saying "I did it, but I failed. But at least I tried". And probably
my plans will never be realised, but I owe myself to try: Maybe I can come
up with something that I can enjoy many years in the future. Maybe not :-)

Best regards,
Thomas

Hi

", but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building. "

Wrong it do not ease the building all it do is that you build the boat
as how you build a house, ------ there are a difference in boats
building and house building ,ask a carpenter to build a boat and you
end up with the cigar box aproach.
Acturly there are much more trouble forcing the stiff sheets to form
round shapes , to do that you use boatbuilding technikes not carpenter
technikes that's the whole trouble.
No sorry the trouble is that you Romans given up the beauty and the
skills, you don't want splendid craftmanship made better with visionary
high-tech you think that becaurse your grandfather once made a cheap
boxboat from scrap and leftover , that _this_ is boatsbuilding ; it
don't look as somthing to place on the lawn so it is to difficult and
then we scrap the fine old crafts and don't give it a chance to profit
from computers.
Realy -------- do anyone want to know what is acturly wrong with these
free software programs, no .
Now it seem that the cheapest and easyest, the free 15 year old
software is to difficult that acturly cigar box boats are not fun ,well
you asked for it didn't you Romans. Is there just one single honest
craftman around one that would feel love for the beauty and visions in
tradisional crafts made better with high-tech no, it is not lame
enough the bottom are not flat enough .

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

Hi Per! Good to have you back - Last time we chatted, I made a couple
suggestions; others have had similar comments:

First, if you will be posting in English, PLEASE find a good
English-language spell-check. (Your credibility will double immediately ;-)

Second, you have proposed some interesting structural systems, which _could_
revolutionize boat construction. And you repeatedly assert that your
designs and systems do a good job of merging tradition and technology. But
you provide no - zero - evidence, even anecdotal, to back up your claims.

PLEASE build one of your boats, to prove your critics wrong. Just show them
that you are right, and the skeptics are wrong.

Boatbuilders are a conservative lot, with good reason. They tend to make
incremental changes to designs and techniques. But if you build a better
boat - prettier, more seaworthy, stronger, faster, or even cheaper - you
will find they will start paying attention.

Talk is cheap...
Sal's Dad


wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi

", but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building. "

Wrong it do not ease the building all it do is that you build the boat
as how you build a house, ------ there are a difference in boats
building and house building ,ask a carpenter to build a boat and you
end up with the cigar box aproach.
Acturly there are much more trouble forcing the stiff sheets to form
round shapes , to do that you use boatbuilding technikes not carpenter
technikes that's the whole trouble.
No sorry the trouble is that you Romans given up the beauty and the
skills, you don't want splendid craftmanship made better with visionary
high-tech you think that becaurse your grandfather once made a cheap
boxboat from scrap and leftover , that _this_ is boatsbuilding ; it
don't look as somthing to place on the lawn so it is to difficult and
then we scrap the fine old crafts and don't give it a chance to profit
from computers.
Realy -------- do anyone want to know what is acturly wrong with these
free software programs, no .
Now it seem that the cheapest and easyest, the free 15 year old
software is to difficult that acturly cigar box boats are not fun ,well
you asked for it didn't you Romans. Is there just one single honest
craftman around one that would feel love for the beauty and visions in
tradisional crafts made better with high-tech no, it is not lame
enough the bottom are not flat enough .

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

skrev i meddelandet
ups.com...

", but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building. "
Wrong it do not ease the building all it do is that you build the boat
as how you build a house, ------ there are a difference in boats
building and house building ,ask a carpenter to build a boat and you
end up with the cigar box aproach.

Well, even though I haven't build it myself, I would still claim that the
Weekender (http://www.stevproj.com/PocketYachts.html) is easier to build
than a boat with e.g. 5 chines. In basics, this is just a bottom with sides
and deck glued on it.

But as I said, I am not very fond of that :-)


No sorry the trouble is that you Romans given up the beauty and the
skills, you don't want splendid craftmanship made better with visionary
high-tech you think that becaurse your grandfather once made a cheap
boxboat from scrap and leftover , that _this_ is boatsbuilding ; it

In difference from a car, which is just something you need for
transportation, I think that it is very important that a boat is beautiful.
The feeling you get when you look at your boat should be "Wow! This boat is
so beutiful, and I am so happy that I own it". Just because it is a hobby
:-)


you asked for it didn't you Romans. Is there just one single honest
craftman around one that would feel love for the beauty and visions in
tradisional crafts made better with high-tech no, it is not lame
enough the bottom are not flat enough .

Do I understand you correctly, or do you now talk in favour of the
"cigar-box" design? When you talk about traditional crafts to you then deny
the use of e.g. plywood, which is probably the best thing that has happened
for amateur boat builders?

Best regards,
Thomas

P.S. From your e-mail address, are you from Denmark? I'm Danish myself but
moved to Sweden a few years ago.

Hi William,

I have been wondering... Wouldn't it, from a forces point of view, be a good
idea to put the mast on one of the bulkheads?

/Thomas


"William R. Watt" skrev i meddelandet
...

You're welcome to look at the design process for Solo15 on my website
under "Boats" (address below). It describes how I used two free hull
design programs (Carlson and Blue Peter) and compared the numbers to lists
of boats in books. The Solo15 was an exercise to demonstrate on the
Internet how amateurs like myself might go about designing a small boat.
The design is incomplete and will not likely be built. I'd advise reading
a lot of books on boat design from the public library. Chosing the shape
is just part of it, there's chosing the right strength and weight of
materials, getting the weight distribution and sail balance right, etc.

For a combination of inspiration and practical information for small boats
I
like the two books by designer/builder TF Jones.

You might be interested in looking at amateurn boat desing competitions.
There's one a year at www.duckworksmagazine.com. I think only the most
recent one is avaiable for viewing without paying a membership fee to
login.

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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whereas if you _deisgn_ your own boat, you should burn it at the
_start of the sailing season, having spent your time out of season, on
your own, trying it out....
You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:24:55 GMT, "Thomas Veber"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

Good!

I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Ah! Good luck then!