Designing my own boat
 

Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas

You're welcome to look at the design process for Solo15 on my website
under "Boats" (address below). It describes how I used two free hull
design programs (Carlson and Blue Peter) and compared the numbers to lists
of boats in books. The Solo15 was an exercise to demonstrate on the
Internet how amateurs like myself might go about designing a small boat.
The design is incomplete and will not likely be built. I'd advise reading
a lot of books on boat design from the public library. Chosing the shape
is just part of it, there's chosing the right strength and weight of
materials, getting the weight distribution and sail balance right, etc.

For a combination of inspiration and practical information for small boats I
like the two books by designer/builder TF Jones.

You might be interested in looking at amateurn boat desing competitions.
There's one a year at www.duckworksmagazine.com. I think only the most
recent one is avaiable for viewing without paying a membership fee to login.

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Thomas Veber wrote:
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now
feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail
boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and
a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in
this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and
make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program
and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program
for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy
and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard,
rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails
will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the
sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages
etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather
do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending
thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas

Sure, do it, but not alone. I designed my own 20 footer a year or so
back, and even though I have built a few dozen SmallBoats in the last
few years, I brought in a professional designer for the 20 footer. He
went over the numbers and made a couple of reccomendations to adjust
the shape of the bow, cockpit placement and design... etc...
Just a suggestion, Scotty

I have a friend who is a professional classical musician. I know how i'd
react if he said to me "Mozart, Schmozart! Though I have no training in it
and have never done it before, I'm going to compose my own violin concerto,
rent a hall and perform it. I expect that i'll get my usual crowd at the
usual prices.". I'd tell him to have a nice time and that i'll come if he
gives me a ticket.

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.



"Thomas Veber" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat.
It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for
free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder,
rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the
sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas

You will see a lot of argument here over the relative merits of careful
experienced designers (Bolger comes to mind ;-) And some boats, in some
applications, can be home designed - it would be hard to build a worse
jonboat than those commercially available! But in general, a tried-and
true design, or designer is a good idea.

But there are plenty of good, serviceable, easy-to-build designs out there
that will probably meet your needs. If, after a rigorous search, you can't
find the perfect boat for you, consider making minor modifications to an
existing design.

As to Jim's warnings: Even the best home-built boat has a resale value
approaching zero. Just please, when you launch a home-designed boat, take
it out a lot, alone. Preferably before you reproduce.

Sal's Dad



"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
I have a friend who is a professional classical musician. I know how i'd
react if he said to me "Mozart, Schmozart! Though I have no training in it
and have never done it before, I'm going to compose my own violin
concerto,
rent a hall and perform it. I expect that i'll get my usual crowd at the
usual prices.". I'd tell him to have a nice time and that i'll come if he
gives me a ticket.

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.



"Thomas Veber" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now
feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat.
It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and
make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for
free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder,
rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the
sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas

Hi William,

Thank you for your nice and long reply. I have been looking at your web
page, and found a lot of usefuld information. I will see if I can find the
"Blue Peter" program also. I think it is a good idea to build models in
plywood. I was thinking of building them in paper, but ofcourse thin plywood
will give a better "feel" of the real thing.

I will study your web page more, and probably return with more questions...
It is specially the weight- and strength distribution that concerns me.

Fortunately we do not have the same regulations in Sweden to toilets as you
have in Canada. But IF there is a toilet, it must have a tank to hold the
waste.

Best regards,
Thomas


"William R. Watt" skrev i meddelandet
...

You're welcome to look at the design process for Solo15 on my website
under "Boats" (address below). It describes how I used two free hull
design programs (Carlson and Blue Peter) and compared the numbers to lists
of boats in books. The Solo15 was an exercise to demonstrate on the
Internet how amateurs like myself might go about designing a small boat.
The design is incomplete and will not likely be built. I'd advise reading
a lot of books on boat design from the public library. Chosing the shape
is just part of it, there's chosing the right strength and weight of
materials, getting the weight distribution and sail balance right, etc.

For a combination of inspiration and practical information for small boats
I
like the two books by designer/builder TF Jones.

You might be interested in looking at amateurn boat desing competitions.
There's one a year at www.duckworksmagazine.com. I think only the most
recent one is avaiable for viewing without paying a membership fee to
login.

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"wtf" skrev i meddelandet
ps.com...

few years, I brought in a professional designer for the 20 footer. He
went over the numbers and made a couple of reccomendations to adjust
the shape of the bow, cockpit placement and design... etc...

I have actually been considering this myself: Do the basic design myself.
Then have all the "lads" down the harbour take a look at it (it is
incredibly how many ideas people down the harbour have when it comes to
other peoples boats :-). And then have a professional designer look over it.
I think that those money are well spent.

Do you have any more information about your 20 footer. It would be nice e.g.
to see some photos or hear something about the thoughts in the
design/building progress. E.g. how long time it took, what it cost, etc.

Best regards,
Thomas

"Sal's Dad" skrev i meddelandet
...

As to Jim's warnings: Even the best home-built boat has a resale value
approaching zero. Just please, when you launch a home-designed boat, take
it out a lot, alone. Preferably before you reproduce.

I am not doing this for money :-). If I spend these hours working instead of
designing/building, I could probably buy a very nice boat and still have
money left :-)

I actually already own a 30 ft. yacht from 1937. The whole idea now is
actually not to get a boat, but to build it. Ofcourse I have ideas on how to
use it when it is finished, but the goal is the building of it. The
satisfaction to sail a boat I have build with my own hands. Now the dream
just got one step further - the design.

Best regards,
Thomas

"Jim Conlin" skrev i meddelandet
...

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.

I certainly understand your arguments, but even Mozard started somewhere.
But probably he did not have newsgroups, books and computer programs to help
him. So hopefully my odds will be better in succeeding :-).

But ofcourse: My posting here is to get ideas and inspiration and good
advice. This could end up with, that I buy one of the many plans available
instead of trying a design myself. But one has to start somewhere...

Best regards,
Thomas

Don't be put off by people who tell you an amateur or a first timer can't
design and build a good boat. You can take a look at Paradox or Squeak
(read Ladd's "Three Years in a Twelve-foot Boat"), or Toad Hall if it's
still on the Internet. These are just a few examples of great amateur
sailing boat designs for coastal waters. Actually Toad Hall is supposed to
be offshore. The fellow who finally got the design of a trimaran right,
after so many professionals had tied and failed, was an insurance
salesman. Perhaps the most popular desinger of sailing catamarans for home
building (James Wharram) is an untrained amateur.

Some of Phil Bolger's boats may look like they've been designed by a first
time amateur but he's actually a fully trained professional with many
traditional boat designs to his credit. He just happens to design a line
of boats for performance and for ease of constrution by amateurs, rather
than for appearances.

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Thomas,

Sorry for the acidic tone - this weekend, at the Snow Row in Hull Mass, I
was shown a very interesting, home-designed boat. Construction and finish
were gorgeous, and the builder had gone through remarkable effort to get
"approval" from a testing lab. But it was a radical design, which may - or
may not - work, and it wasn't obvious (to me) that it would meet the
builder's needs.

That brought to mind another story I saw not long ago, a fellow who spent 20
years or so building his dream boat - but he had NEVER been sailing! As I
recall the outcome was not real positive.

There are so many dreamers on this group, who would be well-served buying or
borrowing an older day-sailor, skiff, or runabout, and getting out on the
water for a few days! Sorry I didn't pick up from your note that you are
not in that category...

Hope you have read all of Gerr's and Bolger's books - not for specific
designs, but to understand the thinking. Look at the Atkins catalog. And
'Messing About in Boats' has a lot of good info, especially if you, like me,
are one of the people who enjoys Robb White.

Sal's Dad


As to Jim's warnings: Even the best home-built boat has a resale value
approaching zero. Just please, when you launch a home-designed boat,
take it out a lot, alone. Preferably before you reproduce.

I am not doing this for money :-). If I spend these hours working instead
of designing/building, I could probably buy a very nice boat and still
have money left :-)

I actually already own a 30 ft. yacht from 1937. The whole idea now is
actually not to get a boat, but to build it. Ofcourse I have ideas on how
to use it when it is finished, but the goal is the building of it. The
satisfaction to sail a boat I have build with my own hands. Now the dream
just got one step further - the design.

Best regards,
Thomas

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:00:55 GMT, "Thomas Veber"
wrote:


"Jim Conlin" skrev i meddelandet
...

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.

I certainly understand your arguments, but even Mozard started somewhere.
But probably he did not have newsgroups, books and computer programs to help
him. So hopefully my odds will be better in succeeding :-).

But ofcourse: My posting here is to get ideas and inspiration and good
advice. This could end up with, that I buy one of the many plans available
instead of trying a design myself. But one has to start somewhere...

Best regards,
Thomas

Well, about Mozart. If you were the naval architect equivalent of
Mozart you would have designed and built a good competitive Moth class
boat at the age of five.

You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.



Rodney Myrvaagnes Opinionated old geezer

Brutal dictators are routinely reelected by 90+%
margins. Only in a truly advanced democracy can
one win an election by a negative 600,000 votes.

"Sal's Dad" skrev i meddelandet
...

"approval" from a testing lab. But it was a radical design, which may -
or may not - work, and it wasn't obvious (to me) that it would meet the
builder's needs.

I do not want a radical design, but a classic design. Probably cutter
rigged, and maybe with a gaff or gunther rigg. Furthermore I am willing to
sacrifice comfort for getting a more elegant boat - e.g. by not having a too
tall cabin. Most boats I have seen have a (very) tall cabin, which ofcourse
is needed on small boats to get the comfort. I would rather have a 5 inch
lower cabin but then get a more elegant boat. The "Weekender" is actually a
nice boat, but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building.

That brought to mind another story I saw not long ago, a fellow who spent
20 years or so building his dream boat - but he had NEVER been sailing!
As I recall the outcome was not real positive.

I am very aware of this also. And that is why I want to limit the size to
15-16 feet. A smaller boat should be faster to build (or maybe I should put
my words like this: A smaller boat does not take as long time to build as a
larger boat :-).

Hope you have read all of Gerr's and Bolger's books - not for specific
designs, but to understand the thinking. Look at the Atkins catalog. And
'Messing About in Boats' has a lot of good info, especially if you, like
me, are one of the people who enjoys Robb White.

I will try to find these books. Thank you for the advice.

Best regards,
Thomas

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" skrev i meddelandet
...

Well, about Mozart. If you were the naval architect equivalent of
Mozart you would have designed and built a good competitive Moth class
boat at the age of five.

You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

It was not very fair to make a comparision with Mozart, I know. And I am not
a naval architect, and maybe I will put the whole project on ice again. But
even if I do put the project on ice, I did a try.

When you have a dream, I think that you owe yourself to try to realise it.
Else you will end up as a grumpy, old man saying to yourself on your last
days: "Why didn't I do this, and why didn't I do that?". I think it is much
better saying "I did it, but I failed. But at least I tried". And probably
my plans will never be realised, but I owe myself to try: Maybe I can come
up with something that I can enjoy many years in the future. Maybe not :-)

Best regards,
Thomas

Hi

", but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building. "

Wrong it do not ease the building all it do is that you build the boat
as how you build a house, ------ there are a difference in boats
building and house building ,ask a carpenter to build a boat and you
end up with the cigar box aproach.
Acturly there are much more trouble forcing the stiff sheets to form
round shapes , to do that you use boatbuilding technikes not carpenter
technikes that's the whole trouble.
No sorry the trouble is that you Romans given up the beauty and the
skills, you don't want splendid craftmanship made better with visionary
high-tech you think that becaurse your grandfather once made a cheap
boxboat from scrap and leftover , that _this_ is boatsbuilding ; it
don't look as somthing to place on the lawn so it is to difficult and
then we scrap the fine old crafts and don't give it a chance to profit
from computers.
Realy -------- do anyone want to know what is acturly wrong with these
free software programs, no .
Now it seem that the cheapest and easyest, the free 15 year old
software is to difficult that acturly cigar box boats are not fun ,well
you asked for it didn't you Romans. Is there just one single honest
craftman around one that would feel love for the beauty and visions in
tradisional crafts made better with high-tech no, it is not lame
enough the bottom are not flat enough .

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

Hi Per! Good to have you back - Last time we chatted, I made a couple
suggestions; others have had similar comments:

First, if you will be posting in English, PLEASE find a good
English-language spell-check. (Your credibility will double immediately ;-)

Second, you have proposed some interesting structural systems, which _could_
revolutionize boat construction. And you repeatedly assert that your
designs and systems do a good job of merging tradition and technology. But
you provide no - zero - evidence, even anecdotal, to back up your claims.

PLEASE build one of your boats, to prove your critics wrong. Just show them
that you are right, and the skeptics are wrong.

Boatbuilders are a conservative lot, with good reason. They tend to make
incremental changes to designs and techniques. But if you build a better
boat - prettier, more seaworthy, stronger, faster, or even cheaper - you
will find they will start paying attention.

Talk is cheap...
Sal's Dad


wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi

", but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building. "

Wrong it do not ease the building all it do is that you build the boat
as how you build a house, ------ there are a difference in boats
building and house building ,ask a carpenter to build a boat and you
end up with the cigar box aproach.
Acturly there are much more trouble forcing the stiff sheets to form
round shapes , to do that you use boatbuilding technikes not carpenter
technikes that's the whole trouble.
No sorry the trouble is that you Romans given up the beauty and the
skills, you don't want splendid craftmanship made better with visionary
high-tech you think that becaurse your grandfather once made a cheap
boxboat from scrap and leftover , that _this_ is boatsbuilding ; it
don't look as somthing to place on the lawn so it is to difficult and
then we scrap the fine old crafts and don't give it a chance to profit
from computers.
Realy -------- do anyone want to know what is acturly wrong with these
free software programs, no .
Now it seem that the cheapest and easyest, the free 15 year old
software is to difficult that acturly cigar box boats are not fun ,well
you asked for it didn't you Romans. Is there just one single honest
craftman around one that would feel love for the beauty and visions in
tradisional crafts made better with high-tech no, it is not lame
enough the bottom are not flat enough .

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

skrev i meddelandet
ups.com...

", but I am not very fond of the interior and the single-chine
("cigar-box") design. But ofcourse this eases the building. "
Wrong it do not ease the building all it do is that you build the boat
as how you build a house, ------ there are a difference in boats
building and house building ,ask a carpenter to build a boat and you
end up with the cigar box aproach.

Well, even though I haven't build it myself, I would still claim that the
Weekender (http://www.stevproj.com/PocketYachts.html) is easier to build
than a boat with e.g. 5 chines. In basics, this is just a bottom with sides
and deck glued on it.

But as I said, I am not very fond of that :-)


No sorry the trouble is that you Romans given up the beauty and the
skills, you don't want splendid craftmanship made better with visionary
high-tech you think that becaurse your grandfather once made a cheap
boxboat from scrap and leftover , that _this_ is boatsbuilding ; it

In difference from a car, which is just something you need for
transportation, I think that it is very important that a boat is beautiful.
The feeling you get when you look at your boat should be "Wow! This boat is
so beutiful, and I am so happy that I own it". Just because it is a hobby
:-)


you asked for it didn't you Romans. Is there just one single honest
craftman around one that would feel love for the beauty and visions in
tradisional crafts made better with high-tech no, it is not lame
enough the bottom are not flat enough .

Do I understand you correctly, or do you now talk in favour of the
"cigar-box" design? When you talk about traditional crafts to you then deny
the use of e.g. plywood, which is probably the best thing that has happened
for amateur boat builders?

Best regards,
Thomas

P.S. From your e-mail address, are you from Denmark? I'm Danish myself but
moved to Sweden a few years ago.

Hi William,

I have been wondering... Wouldn't it, from a forces point of view, be a good
idea to put the mast on one of the bulkheads?

/Thomas


"William R. Watt" skrev i meddelandet
...

You're welcome to look at the design process for Solo15 on my website
under "Boats" (address below). It describes how I used two free hull
design programs (Carlson and Blue Peter) and compared the numbers to lists
of boats in books. The Solo15 was an exercise to demonstrate on the
Internet how amateurs like myself might go about designing a small boat.
The design is incomplete and will not likely be built. I'd advise reading
a lot of books on boat design from the public library. Chosing the shape
is just part of it, there's chosing the right strength and weight of
materials, getting the weight distribution and sail balance right, etc.

For a combination of inspiration and practical information for small boats
I
like the two books by designer/builder TF Jones.

You might be interested in looking at amateurn boat desing competitions.
There's one a year at www.duckworksmagazine.com. I think only the most
recent one is avaiable for viewing without paying a membership fee to
login.

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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whereas if you _deisgn_ your own boat, you should burn it at the
_start of the sailing season, having spent your time out of season, on
your own, trying it out....
You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:24:55 GMT, "Thomas Veber"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

Good!

I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Ah! Good luck then!

"Thomas Veber" ) writes:
Hi William,

I have been wondering... Wouldn't it, from a forces point of view, be a good
idea to put the mast on one of the bulkheads?

/Thomas

I've located the unstayed mast in a raised tabernacle at the front of the
cabin wall (this cabin looks much like raised the cabin on a New England
catboat) intending it and the cabin to be supported on the same framing,
with the sideways stress being carried by the cabin wall and framing to
the gunwales and chines. It's not entirely an untested idea. You might
want to look at the way the mast is stepped in the removable partners on
the Dogskiff boat on my website. That arrangement has worked fine. If the
arrangement on the Solo15 caused any problems a hole could be cut in the
deck and the mast stepped on the cabin sole in the more traditional
manner. It's always good to have a backup plan. :)

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People should keep in minmd that sailboats don't sail flat, they sail
heeled over (mostly about 15 degrees), hence flat bottom sailboats sail on
their chines and are therefore really V-bottom boats. In addition Phil
Bolger recommends flat bottom boats have their bow fore-and-aft deadrise
angle equal to their bow half angle, which I finally realized gives them a
pretty symetrical entrance and also somewhat less weather helm than boats
with less deadrise.

When I raced club dingys we sat out and sailed them flat because they were
designed to be sailed flat and could, on occasion, be made to plane. When
the wind picks up a flat bottom boat might also plane (especially the lake
scows which are desinged to do so) but in normal winds I believe they
should be sailed heeled over. That's why I sail my small flat bottom boats
more comfortably, sitting in the center on the bottom on a cushion facing
forward. None of this scrambling from side to side with each tack and
sitting out over the gunwale in every gust.

I also paddle small home made flat bottom boats in which I am more
sensitive to resistance and can feel the difference when I heel the boats
over solo canoe style. They move in a straighter line with less effort
when heeled and moving along on the chine, again, V-bottom when heeled.

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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:52 +0800, OldNick
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whereas if you _deisgn_ your own boat, you should burn it at the
_start of the sailing season, having spent your time out of season, on
your own, trying it out....
You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

I should have said "designed and built." Since it was for his own
amusement, he could do what he liked. I felt at the time that he
should overlap them enough to gauge any improvement.

Since I don't know what would have constituted an improvement on his
terms, my feelings are meaningless in this context.

What bothers me about many threads on this NG is prospective builders
who have no idea (from using boats) what characteristics they would
like a boat to have. Nobody else can tell them that.

They have to go sailing (or whatever they do with a boat) on enough
different boats to begin to understand the problem they are trying to
solve. If building a boat is the only point, they could just avoid
disappointment by burning it before launch, as you suggested.



Rodney Myrvaagnes Opinionated old geezer

Brutal dictators are routinely reelected by 90+%
margins. Only in a truly advanced democracy can
one win an election by a negative 600,000 votes.

I think you'll like using thin plywood for building a model better than
other materials. I've tried things like paper, plastic, thin cardboard
....nope, ply is better. I use model aircraft plywood from the local hobby
shop. It bends realistically and you can cut it with scissors.

Brian D



"Thomas Veber" wrote in message
...
Hi William,

Thank you for your nice and long reply. I have been looking at your web
page, and found a lot of usefuld information. I will see if I can find the
"Blue Peter" program also. I think it is a good idea to build models in
plywood. I was thinking of building them in paper, but ofcourse thin
plywood will give a better "feel" of the real thing.

I will study your web page more, and probably return with more
questions... It is specially the weight- and strength distribution that
concerns me.

Fortunately we do not have the same regulations in Sweden to toilets as
you have in Canada. But IF there is a toilet, it must have a tank to hold
the waste.

Best regards,
Thomas


"William R. Watt" skrev i meddelandet
...

You're welcome to look at the design process for Solo15 on my website
under "Boats" (address below). It describes how I used two free hull
design programs (Carlson and Blue Peter) and compared the numbers to
lists
of boats in books. The Solo15 was an exercise to demonstrate on the
Internet how amateurs like myself might go about designing a small boat.
The design is incomplete and will not likely be built. I'd advise reading
a lot of books on boat design from the public library. Chosing the shape
is just part of it, there's chosing the right strength and weight of
materials, getting the weight distribution and sail balance right, etc.

For a combination of inspiration and practical information for small
boats I
like the two books by designer/builder TF Jones.

You might be interested in looking at amateurn boat desing competitions.
There's one a year at www.duckworksmagazine.com. I think only the most
recent one is avaiable for viewing without paying a membership fee to
login.

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returned

Not quite true on the resale value. I've seen several Tolmans sell for $25k
to $30k. They have a strong reputation.

Brian D


"Sal's Dad" wrote in message
...
You will see a lot of argument here over the relative merits of careful
experienced designers (Bolger comes to mind ;-) And some boats, in some
applications, can be home designed - it would be hard to build a worse
jonboat than those commercially available! But in general, a tried-and
true design, or designer is a good idea.

But there are plenty of good, serviceable, easy-to-build designs out there
that will probably meet your needs. If, after a rigorous search, you
can't find the perfect boat for you, consider making minor modifications
to an existing design.

As to Jim's warnings: Even the best home-built boat has a resale value
approaching zero. Just please, when you launch a home-designed boat, take
it out a lot, alone. Preferably before you reproduce.

Sal's Dad



"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
I have a friend who is a professional classical musician. I know how i'd
react if he said to me "Mozart, Schmozart! Though I have no training in
it
and have never done it before, I'm going to compose my own violin
concerto,
rent a hall and perform it. I expect that i'll get my usual crowd at the
usual prices.". I'd tell him to have a nice time and that i'll come if
he
gives me a ticket.

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.



"Thomas Veber" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now
feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat.
It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and
make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for
free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy
and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder,
rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails
will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the
sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds
of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas

Hi

"Hi Per! Good to have you back - Last time we chatted, I made a
couple
suggestions; others have had similar comments:

First, if you will be posting in English, PLEASE find a good
English-language spell-check. (Your credibility will double
immediately ;-) "

True but isn't it just how it allway's been there are a real need for a
new way to perform a small boat, a cabin an aeroplane whatever and
acturly the vorse trouble is ,that the old crafts ask that much in
terms of craftmanship, that only very few can profit. As you know my
attitude are different here are a method where there are no trouble
finding the software as all you need to do is to model with Solids and
when that is done I point to a fancy new way to produce what realy
count if the hull get over 7 meter --- a way to produce the exact
framework in one go and ontop make it so, that the only material you
need is sheet material.
Bending and fiddeling allway's been a part of boatsbuilding but
avoiding the vorse fiddeling the fiddeling that you turn to becaurse
you don't know better way's than fighting the materials , that shuld be
replaced by methods that solve the vorse problems forming and
projecting the assembly for whatever to.
I know it is a very different world, but what do you expect new things
,new methods, new perception allway's must be different , --- if this
new thing was just what we already know then is it realy new ? No new
things are new and so they are different but the idear in itself shuld
prove ; isn't a method that replace 20 different profiles, stringers
knees bolts nuts and special fittings with just one plain material
promising enough.

P.C.

B.rian D write

"I think you'll like using thin plywood for building a model better
than
other materials. "

Exactly aero ply is another name for it ,it come 0,4 mm. and 0,8 mm as
thin almost as paper but increadible strong it is usealy 3 layers but
need to be prepared with thin epoxy if you plan to sail it as the glue
can be water solvent anyway steaming it can make it delaminate so make
tests before you start experiment with this great stuff.

P.C.

Per,

Maybe I missed it, but did you address, acknowledge (or even read!) anything
that I wrote?

Sal's Dad


wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi

"Hi Per! Good to have you back - Last time we chatted, I made a
couple
suggestions; others have had similar comments:

First, if you will be posting in English, PLEASE find a good
English-language spell-check. (Your credibility will double
immediately ;-) "

True but isn't it just how it allway's been there are a real need for a
new way to perform a small boat, a cabin an aeroplane whatever and
acturly the vorse trouble is ,that the old crafts ask that much in
terms of craftmanship, that only very few can profit. As you know my
attitude are different here are a method where there are no trouble
finding the software as all you need to do is to model with Solids and
when that is done I point to a fancy new way to produce what realy
count if the hull get over 7 meter --- a way to produce the exact
framework in one go and ontop make it so, that the only material you
need is sheet material.
Bending and fiddeling allway's been a part of boatsbuilding but
avoiding the vorse fiddeling the fiddeling that you turn to becaurse
you don't know better way's than fighting the materials , that shuld be
replaced by methods that solve the vorse problems forming and
projecting the assembly for whatever to.
I know it is a very different world, but what do you expect new things
,new methods, new perception allway's must be different , --- if this
new thing was just what we already know then is it realy new ? No new
things are new and so they are different but the idear in itself shuld
prove ; isn't a method that replace 20 different profiles, stringers
knees bolts nuts and special fittings with just one plain material
promising enough.

P.C.

Hi

"Maybe I missed it, but did you address, acknowledge (or even read!)
anything
that I wrote? "

No my only concern is that anyone with a bit drive ,can make a nice
boat in the best technike , you know sheet material are the only
materal with 3D-H no bending or fiddeling needed ,I find the most
important issue that if anyone want to profit from making it yourself
be my guest. .
When I ansver I ofcaurse drive my Pony, but this is not bad you se,
digital and crafts work perfect together and I gladly share my thoughts
offer better new options, except fact is that you get bad mood, when
realising how low the CAD standard is that still most is 2D and the
Romans don't even know what 3D is. You know my Pony it's about
offering you and any other skilled want to do it mysef'r , who can
handle somthing as simple as a carpenter tool , this option ,want a
cheap strong easy boat ,well pay four times as much if you find this
clever othervise, get to know just one new tool, that acturly make the
computer just work.

P.C.

In article , Thomas Veber
writes
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

Sounds rather like a Wayfarer dinghy, minus the little cabin.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and make
the design my self?

The only reason to design a boat yourself, is if you believe you can
produce a boat which is better, in specific ways, than existing designs.
What specific improvements do you feel your design would incorporate?
Would you be better off taking your design ideas to an established yacht
designer for them to incorporate in a professional design? Eg, if you
have an ingenious idea for a demountable lightweight folding cabin,
which offers advantages over existing cockpit tent arrangements, that
could possibly be a goer.

If you really want to design and build your own sailboat, then first
design and build a model racing yacht or three, or maybe an
International Moth, and race it. That will give you the most practical
insight into sailboat design for the least cost, plus contact with a
supportive community of similarly minded eccentrics.

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze?

You could buy an old Wayfarer or Leisure 17 or whatever, use the rig and
rudder on a similar size and displacement hull of your own design.

How do I ensure that the sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

By sailing it, that is the only way (unless maybe you have your own
testing tank and computer modelling facilities, or you are already an
experienced designer)

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

More than 500 hrs for a 15-16 foot boat is a bit excessive. 50 hours,
once you get good at it. 20 hrs for a model yacht.

--
Mark Dunlop

I built a boat last year of my own design, a 15 1/2' flat bottom boat
for duckhunting. It was the forth boat I've built. The reason I
designed it myself, is that there was no existing design that could do
what I wanted the boat to do. It has worked out very well. I'm very
happy with the boat. I looked at several other boats, designed by
professionals, that were about the same size and got ideas about how I
would build my boat. I read a book by Sam Devlin, that was very useful
on Stitch and Glue boats (my boat is stitch and glue). A very
satisfying experience overall. It took me 5 months to build the boat,
but I fooled around with different designs and built and tested 4 scale
models over a 2 year period before I started building. The design part
of the project was more time consuming than the actual construction.
My advice to you is to consider the hundreds of sail boat plans out
there, and only design one yourself only if no existing plan can be
modified to suit your needs. Here's an old link to Devlin's book on
Amazon. Not sure if it still works:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

Oh, and if you haven't been to bateau.com, definitley check it out.
Also there's www.amateurboatbuilding.com

Ed.


Thomas Veber wrote:
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now
feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail
boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and
a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in
this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and
make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program
and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program
for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy
and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard,
rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails
will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the
sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages
etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather
do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending
thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.


Oh for heaven's sake. A guy who's actually built a boat appears, asks a
respectful question, and this is the sort of useless quack people make.
If every aspiring designer had listened to this sort of cynical
self-defeating advice, we'd still be paddling across the river on a log.
You know, we shouldn't have anything to do with those guys with their wild
talk about hollowing out their logs. I have it on the best authority that
hollow logs attract bad juju, and anyway my grand-daddy paddled across the
river on a regular log and it was good enough for him, so it's good enough
for me.

There are a number of useful books: Google for Dave Gerr, Sam Devlin, and
some of the Gray Eminences of boat design like the Atkins and Chappelle
(primarily a historian, but vernacular design that has stood the
test of time is very often superior to things designed on the basis of
current trends.) Marchaj is a good source for empirical data. There are
several active boat design and building groups on Yahoo-- very useful
communities, and largely devoid of pointless discouragement. Make a list
of boats you like and research their designers. Often they'll have written
about their work, which will give useful insights into the design
philosophy they have developed. Eventually you'll develop your own, and
who knows? Sure, the odds are your boat will be no better and perhaps
worse in some respects than a design from the board of a professional, but
so what? It'll be yours, and that's what you want. In a hundred years it
won't matter a bit, and there are far less noble pastimes than trying to
create a thing of beauty.

There's a wealth of information out
there, and someone out there who's going to be the next great designer.
Might be Thomas. Probably not going to be someone who's excessively
concerned about the financial risks of home boatbuilding.

Ray, there are a great many postings on this (and other) board(s) from
inexperienced people, who seem to be getting off to a bad start. They
should be encouraged to get some experience in a variety of boats, and to
look long and hard at buying a commercial product, before building one.
And to research existing designs and designers, before trying to design
their own. The consequences of failure can, indeed, be high.

From Thomas's initial posting, it appeared to me (and others) that he might
be in this category. Having built one skiff, he was going on to design and
build a small but complex sailing craft. Not until later postings did it
emerge that he has significant experience on the water, in large and small
craft.

Anybody contemplating building a boat should be aware of the time, expense,
and risk involved - as well as the rewards and pleasures.


"Ray Aldridge" wrote in message
. ..

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.


Oh for heaven's sake. A guy who's actually built a boat appears, asks a
respectful question, and this is the sort of useless quack people make.
If every aspiring designer had listened to this sort of cynical
self-defeating advice, we'd still be paddling across the river on a log.