Now Andrew you had your chance to lead out your poison once again, now
tell me what pervert pleasure you display , tell me why you try ruin my
reputation spill poison in a discussion --------- is this your best bid
in this discussion well go back to hell and charge up your pover.

On 16 Jan 2005 09:37:35 -0800, vaguely proposed a
theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Per

I would not know Bolger, or even a Bolger boat, from a hole in the
ground. If I have ever seen one I would not know.

Have you had any boats built using your method? Have YOU built any
boats using your method?

Now Andrew you had your chance to lead out your poison once again, now
tell me what pervert pleasure you display , tell me why you try ruin my
reputation spill poison in a discussion --------- is this your best bid
in this discussion well go back to hell and charge up your pover.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:14:52 -0800, "Brian Combs"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You might try talking with the fishermen in the area since they have long
experience of what shapes work and which ones don't work well for their
waters. Then work from there.

I agree. I see the boats they use, and they look very seaworthy in
shape and design.

And after all they are the one that are going to use them. It will be
easier to persuade them to use the boats, and their lives are the ones
at stake.

On 16 Jan 2005 08:33:17 -0800, wrote:

I am a danish boatbuilder I build and design from experience and realy
none of my boats ever proven wrong, ---- the rules about materials is
easy you can find these easy a boat this size ask this thickness of
paneling and this amount of frames my buisness is true new building
methods and design.

Your English has improved considerably. Have you posted pix of any
boats you have built?



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you

Hi

If you check the Cyber-Boat Yahoo group you will se pictures of several
of the small boats I designed, build, sold plans for given plans away
for.

If you knew the old Cyber-Boat site you would have seen several more
boats build ------ Now in this group for some reson innovation and even
CAD as how used in industrie is simply not understood ; some people
here rather turn a discussion into a personal harasment pointing to
"their" favorite designer omitting the progress in digital projecting
and how boatbuilding as a craft taken all these new technologies into
count --- if you know that a CAD program carry everything from
Archimedes to Pascal and know that a CAD program is just the
calculations and tools alway's used by boatbuilders and designers, then
you also know how silli but also how dirty the discussions in this fora
work ;
Now you ask and I point you to the last boat I build, you se I alway's
combined tradisional craftmanship with modern tools, so what you se is
_not_ an old fasion boat acturly everything is made with computer ---
that is the design that is an altered Lofoten dinghie, the plans the
calculations, just everything is made with computers, --- except
building the boat from the ready cut planks, now tell me if I can build
a boat, and tell me if you think I can design one. And if you think so
please ask the other crowd to show somthing of the same quality ; ----
Please check the Foto's section to se the build boat ;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-...foten-dinghie/

Please check the other Cyber-Boat groups to se those build boats.
Per Corell

After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to
help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of
standard 30 feet length.

Some FAO documents on the subject:
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cd.../W7260E/W7260E
00.HTM
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/T0530E/T0530E00.HTM
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/V9468E/V9468E00.HTM

Paolo

Hi

I must agrea that I do not belive that glasfiber and resin is the only
solution.
I love to use Epoxies and know that a glasfiber boat offer the top of
what boatbuilding achived but I do belive more in other methods and I
think that sheet materials is a better alternative even as ready made
sheet materials cut after Digital projecting, --- . Still I do belive
that a combine of methods, like how you already se bigger glasfiber
paneled boats build with wooden frames , but why not take it a step
further so the boat only cost a third and is four times as strong, and
the builders start using actural digital tools not rewritten old
methods. Personaly I find epoxies and polyester to valuable a source
and the need for digital manufactoring more important , even in space
industrie the best would be metal not epoxy, but anyway if this is
about efficiency what\s wrong with pre hardened glasfiber sheets pre.
cut to form the framework assembly ready cut panels , and then build up
inside that, ---- premade glasfiber sheets already offer one smooth
side, why spend the time making an expensive plug to make a form if a
new technology offer a much more promising aproach. Why not focus on
sheet materials as that cover plastic aswell as metal and steel or
plywood.
Digital options as we se them today, is rather about making an
expensive plug with an expensive 3D router just to support a maby worn
out technike ,rather than using and expanding the real digital options.

With 3D-Honeycomb my attitude is, that now you have the full freedom
forming and a garentie for the strength , but it also is a compleat
other world, than just doing what else could be made by hand anyway,
realy you don\t use a 3D router for that and it seem that a simple 2D
N.C. cutter prove much more efficient forming the pieces for an
assembly.
Today\s design and architect programs are not about shaping the form
and generating the assembly but make a neat account, an account just as
70 years ago , now if we aks new solutions and new jobs it is my belive
that this ask a change in perception . We still translate the old
methods into computer code and ask a 3D router to router out the plug
to make the form so we stay with boatbuilding as how that is today,
maby a change in the way to build a boat or a house is what will bring
the jobs and the nice boats and houses at a third the cost four times
as strong as that ask digital tools.

P.C.

Proposal is for new techniques. Fishermen may not imbibe new ways of
boat construction without training.

As I understood what you were saying is,

When the CNC machine cut templates by CAD drawings mesh together, a
rigid shape boat becomes available already!... and there is no need to
have a separate mould,much of drudgery is taken out of forming the hull
shape, both the inside and outside shapes are formed and are ready to
be filled in and spruced up. It is a logical but advanced continuation
of plywood laminating method. Right?

This 3D honeycomb technique appears highly productive and cost
effective, irrespective of how many boats have so far been made or not
made.

Regards

wrote:
Hi

I must agree that I do not believe that glasfiber and resin is the
only
solution.
I love to use Epoxies and know that a glasfiber boat offer the top of
what boatbuilding achived but I do belive more in other methods and I
think that sheet materials is a better alternative even as ready made
sheet materials cut after Digital projecting, --- . Still I do belive
that a combine of methods, like how you already se bigger glasfiber
paneled boats build with wooden frames , but why not take it a step
further so the boat only cost a third and is four times as strong,
and
the builders start using actural digital tools not rewritten old
methods. Personaly I find epoxies and polyester to valuable a source
and the need for digital manufactoring more important , even in space
industrie the best would be metal not epoxy, but anyway if this is
about efficiency what\s wrong with pre hardened glasfiber sheets pre.
cut to form the framework assembly ready cut panels , and then build
up
inside that, ---- premade glasfiber sheets already offer one smooth
side, why spend the time making an expensive plug to make a form if a
new technology offer a much more promising aproach. Why not focus on
sheet materials as that cover plastic aswell as metal and steel or
plywood.
Digital options as we se them today, is rather about making an
expensive plug with an expensive 3D router just to support a maby
worn
out technike ,rather than using and expanding the real digital
options.

With 3D-Honeycomb my attitude is, that now you have the full freedom
forming and a garentie for the strength , but it also is a compleat
other world, than just doing what else could be made by hand anyway,
realy you don\t use a 3D router for that and it seem that a simple 2D
N.C. cutter prove much more efficient forming the pieces for an
assembly.
Today\s design and architect programs are not about shaping the form
and generating the assembly but make a neat account, an account just
as
70 years ago , now if we aks new solutions and new jobs it is my
belive
that this ask a change in perception . We still translate the old
methods into computer code and ask a 3D router to router out the plug
to make the form so we stay with boatbuilding as how that is today,
maby a change in the way to build a boat or a house is what will
bring
the jobs and the nice boats and houses at a third the cost four times
as strong as that ask digital tools.

P.C.

Narasimham wrote:

Am mechanical engineer with a composites background presently residing
in south India. After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to
help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of
standard 30 feet length. Raw materials .. chopped strand mat,
fiberglass cloth, polyester resin and rigid PU foam are commercially
available locally, as is semi-skilled labour who could make boats to
pre designed drawings.

I think you first have to define the boat and it's mission a bit better
- hand (paddle/oar) powered will have to be smaller than sail or
outboard power. How much cargo (fish) will it carry? How fast does it
need to go?

Rigid PU foam is o.k. for insulation and flotation but not structural
purposes; it is too brittle and weak.

Can someone help to guide in the following ?
Shapes: Are drawings available on net? or on payment? What hull shape
is better? U? Flatbottom?

Hull shape will depend on whether it will be a planing boat (fast with
outboard power) or slow (sail or human powered)

If you hire a naval architect they will define the shape of the hull and
the construction method. If you are building more than a few boats, a
female mould (concave shape) is the only way to build efficiently.

You may also be able to purchase stock (premade) plans from a plan company.

Do Lloyds or other certifying agencies based in Europe/US have a
branch or mechanism to test and certify marine craft after fabrication
and testing when involved right from beginning stages in India?

Yes, Lloyds, DNV (Det Norske Veritas) and ABS (American Bureau of
Shipping) are the big ones.
But for a third world project they will be costly and probably not
worthwhile or needed.


If existing wooden hull shapes are duplicated but replaced by solid
fiberglass laminate or polyurethene foam (closed cell to keep out
water) sandwich, would it serve the purpose with stability resisting
wave forces with adequate margin before capsizing?

It depends on what the existing shapes are and how heavy they are built
and where the weights are located - too complex to give a simple answer
here.

For a physics picture of stability:

1) Is metacentric height a parameter to assess stability?

Yes - higher GM means higher static stability

2) Draft. On what factors is load-depth of immersion relations
established?

The shape of the waterplane area (cross section of the hull) determines
how much it will sink at a given draft.


One thought - in Mexico fisherman changed their style of fishing boat
over the past 20 years or so. Initally they used dugout canoes with
paddles or simple oars and stayed close to shore.

Later dugouts had small outboards added, and were sometimes replicated
in fiberglass.

Then the "panga" appeared, a very shallow deadrise (shallow V shape
hull) about 24-26' long. It is built in fiberglass and typically uses a
48,55, or 70 HP outboard motor. These boats are very seaworthy and
often venture offshore about 50 miles, catching up to about 1 tonne of
fish before returning home at slower speeds. Gill nets are the most
used fishing gear. These boats are beached at the end of the day or
anchored just off the beach. They are built in solid fiberglass with
some wood for rubrails and seats etc. They look like this:

http://www.panga.com/pangagallery/pangamex.html

I think they are a good solution to Mexican fisherman's needs but the
government had to offer low interest loans to allow the fisherman to buy
the motor and boat.

Good luck.

Evan Gatehouse