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mast strenght question
I am almost finished designing a 23ft proa and am aware of a new
aluminium section for sale; I would like to know if it will be strong enough for a mast. The proa has a mainsail around 100sqr feet (a little less). At either end are small furling jibs for balance (30 sqr ft). The mast is round section, 6m high, 82mm in diameter and 2.6mm thick. It is made of the proper high grade aluminium from a professional mastmaker. It does not have a track, the mainsail being attached to the mast via lashings. There are 3 stays at the top, one forward, one aft and one to windward, 90 deg to other 2. Three stays is all a proa needs!!!! From my days sailing windrush catamarans, I am a littel worried that the 82mm diameter might not be enough. I know circular section is not high performance but that is not of concern. I am keen on this section because it is new, made of high grade metal, from a professional and failry cheap, $250 Australian. I intend to go cruising, thus needs to be able of withstanding strong winds. Have every intention of reefing when gets blowy. 23ft proa weighs 200kg unladen. Will/should 82mm diameter be sufficent? N. Peter Evans |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:46:23 GMT, Jim Conlin wrote:
Correct. Whatever the rig, if you have it mounted on a barge, or the land, you have a big problem. "Wayne.B" wrote: On 21 Oct 2004 17:01:27 -0700, (peterMelbourneAustralia) wrote: ======================================== You really need to consult with an experienced spar maker. You could look up on boats with the aproximately the same righting momentum, and add some mariginals. For stable boats the wind is crucial since it adds as v^2. So you must put in "your maximum weather" and this part you usually don't know for other boat modells... and your rig maker will probably ask...??? ...yes! you! WANTED! Straight, approximative momentum formula suitable for 1 hull dinghy (no transformation C's added). I found a momentum formula more suited for cat's (I think): http://www.bijlard.demon.nl/page20.html (part of the stability number) Morgan O. |
The distance btween the mast and the base of the shrouds has a big effect on
the stresses of the spar......Narrow beam boats put huge compression loads on the mast spar... wider beam less compression.. Just another factor you should maybe consider... "peterMelbourneAustralia" wrote in message om... I am almost finished designing a 23ft proa and am aware of a new aluminium section for sale; I would like to know if it will be strong enough for a mast. The proa has a mainsail around 100sqr feet (a little less). At either end are small furling jibs for balance (30 sqr ft). The mast is round section, 6m high, 82mm in diameter and 2.6mm thick. It is made of the proper high grade aluminium from a professional mastmaker. It does not have a track, the mainsail being attached to the mast via lashings. There are 3 stays at the top, one forward, one aft and one to windward, 90 deg to other 2. Three stays is all a proa needs!!!! From my days sailing windrush catamarans, I am a littel worried that the 82mm diameter might not be enough. I know circular section is not high performance but that is not of concern. I am keen on this section because it is new, made of high grade metal, from a professional and failry cheap, $250 Australian. I intend to go cruising, thus needs to be able of withstanding strong winds. Have every intention of reefing when gets blowy. 23ft proa weighs 200kg unladen. Will/should 82mm diameter be sufficent? N. Peter Evans |
Morgan O says:
For stable boats the wind is crucial since it adds as v^2. For any boat, the stability (righting moment) is the only thing you need. Wind is actually immaterial except for the small forces added by side-loading of the spar by the main. Steve |
The load on the mast is Righting Moment (1 degree)/ Chainplate base *45
The mast strength is a function og EI l^2 Do you have the moments of inertia? length? "peterMelbourneAustralia" wrote in message om... I am almost finished designing a 23ft proa and am aware of a new aluminium section for sale; I would like to know if it will be strong enough for a mast. The proa has a mainsail around 100sqr feet (a little less). At either end are small furling jibs for balance (30 sqr ft). The mast is round section, 6m high, 82mm in diameter and 2.6mm thick. It is made of the proper high grade aluminium from a professional mastmaker. It does not have a track, the mainsail being attached to the mast via lashings. There are 3 stays at the top, one forward, one aft and one to windward, 90 deg to other 2. Three stays is all a proa needs!!!! From my days sailing windrush catamarans, I am a littel worried that the 82mm diameter might not be enough. I know circular section is not high performance but that is not of concern. I am keen on this section because it is new, made of high grade metal, from a professional and failry cheap, $250 Australian. I intend to go cruising, thus needs to be able of withstanding strong winds. Have every intention of reefing when gets blowy. 23ft proa weighs 200kg unladen. Will/should 82mm diameter be sufficent? N. Peter Evans |
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Brian says:
snip Mr. Wizard experiment Does the mast retain a set after this load? It's not strong enough! Correction, Brian - it WASN'T strong enough ;-) Steve |
I knew you'd just love this one!
:-) B On 23 Oct 2004 01:19:18 GMT, ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote: Brian says: snip Mr. Wizard experiment Does the mast retain a set after this load? It's not strong enough! Correction, Brian - it WASN'T strong enough ;-) Steve |
Thanks for your input, all very scientific. Having the mast tested
using weights has some logic to it. The boat is a proa, a multihull. The side says (there is only 1) is 4m from the mast. Mast is 6m high. Righting moment could be rather high as I was hoping for 50kg of water ballast in teh outrigger at 4m to windward. 50L water ballast tank need not be full I guess. The mast comes from a professional mast/spar maker. The boat is a proa. Main hull is 23 long, 2 ft wide, boat weigh unladen is less than 200kg. Not intending to break speed records. I was hoping to do a comparison with a boat like a Hobie 14 cat. I wonder what their mast dimsnsions woudl be, cannot recall the mast section details of the windrush 12 cat that I used to sail, for some reason never got around to measuring it. Feel that a hobie 14 - 12 has simialr sail area/righting moment, is stayed out wide as per proa. So what is good for that would be good for me. N. Peter Evans |
Nicholas says:
Thanks for your input, all very scientific. ;-) The boat is a proa, a multihull. The side says (there is only 1) is 4m from the mast. Mast is 6m high. Righting moment could be rather high as I was hoping for 50kg of water ballast in teh outrigger at 4m to windward. 50L water ballast tank need not be full I guess. The mast comes from a professional mast/spar maker. The boat is a proa. Main hull is 23 long, 2 ft wide, boat weigh unladen is less than 200kg. Not intending to break speed records. I was hoping to do a comparison with a boat like a Hobie 14 cat. I wonder what their mast dimsnsions woudl be, cannot recall the mast section details of the windrush 12 cat that I used to sail, for some reason never got around to measuring it. Feel that a hobie 14 - 12 has simialr sail area/righting moment, is stayed out wide as per proa. So what is good for that would be good for me. If you can weigh the boat, each hull singly, that would help. Yopu don't have to take it apart, just slide a scale under each hull in turn and record the weights (yes, it can really be that simple.) From that, and with the 50 litres of WB, a rough RM can be obtained. Let us know... Steve |
On 22 Oct 2004 20:52:21 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:
Morgan O says: For stable boats the wind is crucial since it adds as v^2. For any boat, the stability (righting moment) is the only thing you need. Wind is actually immaterial except for the small forces added by side-loading of the spar by the main. Steve It actually depends on the size of the rig and the momentum. The rig can be undersized!!! ...and then it's the momentum that doesn't matter! Since you don't know his boat, you can't say for shure ..and that's why I didn't. Morgan O. |
Morgan O says:
It actually depends on the size of the rig and the momentum. The rig can be undersized!!! ...and then it's the momentum that doesn't matter! Morgan, for someone who professes to know little about the subject, I can only say that you are accurate - you know little. Since you don't know his boat, you can't say for shure ..and that's why I didn't. When you have designed boats that have raced around the world, and come home with their rigs intact, then come back and tell me I'm wrong. Until then, either buy the book I recommended to you, and read up on the subject, or be quiet and stop giving out potentially dangerous information with no knowledge of the subject. Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
On 23 Oct 2004 16:01:42 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:
you know little. I don't like people to give faulty advice anyhow. I just liked to give a hint to PeterM.A about that. ...but I will not fall to your standards of attacking... ....explained this way... If you have a rig in solid concrete, which would matter the most to the rig? A) wind speed? B) the momentum of the solid concrete? take care... hope you understand something new now! Morgan O. |
On 23 Oct 2004 12:26:51 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:
Nicholas says: Thanks for your input, all very scientific. ;-) The boat is a proa, a multihull. The side says (there is only 1) is 4m from the mast. Mast is 6m high. Righting moment could be rather high as I was hoping for 50kg of water ballast in teh outrigger at 4m to windward. 50L water ballast tank need not be full I guess. The mast comes from a professional mast/spar maker. The boat is a proa. Main hull is 23 long, 2 ft wide, boat weigh unladen is less than 200kg. Not intending to break speed records. I was hoping to do a comparison with a boat like a Hobie 14 cat. I wonder what their mast dimsnsions woudl be, cannot recall the mast section details of the windrush 12 cat that I used to sail, for some reason never got around to measuring it. Feel that a hobie 14 - 12 has simialr sail area/righting moment, is stayed out wide as per proa. So what is good for that would be good for me. If you can weigh the boat, each hull singly, that would help. Yopu don't have to take it apart, just slide a scale under each hull in turn and record the weights (yes, it can really be that simple.) From that, and with the 50 litres of WB, a rough RM can be obtained. Let us know... Steve Perhaps he could take a little help of old Archimedes! (do some maths on displaced hull volume) ;o) Morgan O. Wondering if the man go'na bite this time too? |
Morgan says:
If you have a rig in solid concrete, which would matter the most to the rig? A) wind speed? B) the momentum of the solid concrete? If you had a boat with infinite righting moment, it would be dry land, not a boat. Not an apple, just another orange... ..but I will not fall to your standards of attacking... not attacking, Morgan, just quoting you at the beginning of this series of threads. Steve "plonk!" |
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:58:02 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote: On 23 Oct 2004 16:01:42 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote: you know little. I don't like people to give faulty advice anyhow. I just liked to give a hint to PeterM.A about that. ..but I will not fall to your standards of attacking... ...explained this way... If you have a rig in solid concrete, which would matter the most to the rig? A) wind speed? B) the momentum of the solid concrete? take care... hope you understand something new now! Morgan O. You are absolutely right. If the rig were mounted in concrete the important force would result from wind velocity and sail area. However -- we are discussing a rig installed on a BOAT and the important force is righting moment. i.e., in the case you are discussing the mast is fixed and therefore the effective area of the sail is constant. In the case of a spar mounted on a movable base, i.e., a boat, the spar moves and therefore the effective area of the sail changes with changes in wind velocity, thus the important figure is the force opposing the spar movement, the righting moment. Most people who have any knowledge of boats understand this fact instinctively. Cheers, Bruce (k4556atinetdotcodotth) |
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On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:13:04 +0700, Egis/CORE wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:58:02 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote: On 23 Oct 2004 16:01:42 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote: you know little. I don't like people to give faulty advice anyhow. I just liked to give a hint to PeterM.A about that. ..but I will not fall to your standards of attacking... ...explained this way... If you have a rig in solid concrete, which would matter the most to the rig? A) wind speed? B) the momentum of the solid concrete? take care... hope you understand something new now! Morgan O. You are absolutely right. If the rig were mounted in concrete the important force would result from wind velocity and sail area. However -- we are discussing a rig installed on a BOAT and the important force is righting moment. i.e., in the case you are discussing the mast is fixed and therefore the effective area of the sail is constant. In the case of a spar mounted on a movable base, i.e., a boat, the spar moves and therefore the effective area of the sail changes with changes in wind velocity, thus the important figure is the force opposing the spar movement, the righting moment. Most people who have any knowledge of boats understand this fact instinctively. 1'st... I undertand exactly what you are saying... But tech /nature doesn't stop there. There is more to it. Especially that part comes into account in this case, a 2 hull vessell. You are stuck in what sometimes goes under the label "psychic prisons". Morgan O. |
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:20:44 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote: On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:13:04 +0700, Egis/CORE wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:58:02 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote: On 23 Oct 2004 16:01:42 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote: you know little. I don't like people to give faulty advice anyhow. I just liked to give a hint to PeterM.A about that. ..but I will not fall to your standards of attacking... ...explained this way... If you have a rig in solid concrete, which would matter the most to the rig? A) wind speed? B) the momentum of the solid concrete? take care... hope you understand something new now! Morgan O. You are absolutely right. If the rig were mounted in concrete the important force would result from wind velocity and sail area. However -- we are discussing a rig installed on a BOAT and the important force is righting moment. i.e., in the case you are discussing the mast is fixed and therefore the effective area of the sail is constant. In the case of a spar mounted on a movable base, i.e., a boat, the spar moves and therefore the effective area of the sail changes with changes in wind velocity, thus the important figure is the force opposing the spar movement, the righting moment. Most people who have any knowledge of boats understand this fact instinctively. 1'st... I undertand exactly what you are saying... But tech /nature doesn't stop there. There is more to it. Especially that part comes into account in this case, a 2 hull vessell. You are stuck in what sometimes goes under the label "psychic prisons". Morgan O. Sorry old buddy but whether the boat has one hull or many the calculation is the same since the force is the same - the force necessary to heel the vessel, or to phrase it another way, the force the vessel exerts in attempting to stay upright. the Righting Moment, in other words. Certainly the force necessary to heel a multi-hull is higher then that necessary to heel a mono-hull but that doesn't change the fact that the force applied to the mast is exactly the same in each case -- the force necessary to heel the vessel against the opposing force of the vessel trying to remain upright -- the Righting Moment. To stay in the real world, if you approach a mast manufacturer with the intent of designing a mast you will be asked for the righting moment, usually RM30, i.e., Righting Moment at 30 degrees. If you approach a marine engineer/boat designer for information regarding the strength of a mast you will be asked for the RM30. In short, no matter what you think, the rest of the world firmly believes that the strength of a mast is directly dependent on the forces opposing it, i.e., the force the vessel can exert against the mast, the righting moment in other words. Now it appears that either (1) you are wrong; or, (2) the rest of the world is wrong. Take your pick. Cheers, Bruce (k4556atinetdotcodotth) |
Old Nick ) writes: - they load a mast very high in a puff, because they are not supposed to heel more than a very small amount. IIRC (and it's been a while) and extra 20% (?) or more needs to be added to the mast/stay strain for a multi over a mono. good point. a mulithull behaves more like the solid ground mentioned in an earlier post than like a boat. what you usually see for boats is a graph of righting moment against angle of heel. at some point there is a maxiumum righting moment. imagine the cross section of a catamaran. one hull has to be lifted out of the water at some distance from the sail, making for quite a bit of leverage for the sail to overcome. as soon as the raised hull leaves the water it loses all bouyancy and becomes a dead weight for the sail to lift at the end of the lever. teh fulcrum is teh hull which is still in the water. If I remember correctly, according to TF Jones catamarans don't heel more than 5 deg or so. they still roll with the swells so they don't stay flat, but they don't heel much at all. I'd guess it's almost like being on a raft. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Egis/CORE ) writes: Sorry old buddy but whether the boat has one hull or many the calculation is the same since the force is the same - the force necessary to heel the vessel, or to phrase it another way, the force the vessel exerts in attempting to stay upright. the Righting Moment, in other words. why hasn't anyone simply stated Newton's law? for every force acting on a body at rest there is an equal and opposite force. whether you measure the acting force or the reacting force they are equal. in many cases, like the heeling of a boat, it's easier to calcualte the reacting force that it is to calculate the acting force. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
William R. Watt ) writes: .... what you usually see for boats is a graph of righting moment against angle of heel. at some point there is a maxiumum righting moment. I think it should be clarified that the graph you see in the texts is an abstraction and is not what happens on the water. On the water there are more forces involved, especially on a mulithull. Take the extreme case of a raft. One side is being raised through air while the other side is being immersed in water. It's easy to push air aside but not water. As the raft rotates there is a lot of turbulant drag around the side being pushed through the water. There is a righting moment, but its not quite what is calculated in the texts. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:20:53 +0700, Egis/CORE wrote:
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:20:44 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote: On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:13:04 +0700, Egis/CORE wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:58:02 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote: On 23 Oct 2004 16:01:42 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote: you know little. I don't like people to give faulty advice anyhow. I just liked to give a hint to PeterM.A about that. ..but I will not fall to your standards of attacking... ...explained this way... If you have a rig in solid concrete, which would matter the most to the rig? A) wind speed? B) the momentum of the solid concrete? take care... hope you understand something new now! Morgan O. You are absolutely right. If the rig were mounted in concrete the important force would result from wind velocity and sail area. However -- we are discussing a rig installed on a BOAT and the important force is righting moment. i.e., in the case you are discussing the mast is fixed and therefore the effective area of the sail is constant. In the case of a spar mounted on a movable base, i.e., a boat, the spar moves and therefore the effective area of the sail changes with changes in wind velocity, thus the important figure is the force opposing the spar movement, the righting moment. Most people who have any knowledge of boats understand this fact instinctively. 1'st... I undertand exactly what you are saying... But tech /nature doesn't stop there. There is more to it. Especially that part comes into account in this case, a 2 hull vessell. You are stuck in what sometimes goes under the label "psychic prisons". Morgan O. Sorry old buddy but whether the boat has one hull or many the calculation is the same since the force is the same - the force necessary to heel the vessel, or to phrase it another way, the force the vessel exerts in attempting to stay upright. the Righting Moment, in other words. Perhaps ordinary engineering isn't good enough for boat historians. Think... Inert mass Roll resistans Non capsizeing vessells Heavy ghusts ....and you get quite different scenarios. It's quite alright to use old rules of thumb... but know their limits! Morgan O. |
Morgan O says:
Non capsizeing vessells No such thing ;-) Some boats will always right themselves, but there is NO boat that is "non-capsizing". Steve |
I am a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information from this thread.
I was kinda hoping for something like 'my 14ft cat had a similar mast, so 82mm diam should be OK'. Yes the proa is light. As a comparison Rob Denney's Elementary proa (1 person in cabin) weighs 110kg unladen. Proas tend to be long narrow and light, disadvatnage is that thy do not have much space or carry a lot of cargo. The proa is a pacific proa, meaning that the outrigger (weighs 25kg without ballast) is always to windward. At this point feel tempted to give the mast a go becasue it is so cheap (is new and proper grade, not junk), worse comes to worse loose $250 mast. As a comparison some dingies with similar sail area have mast diam of 60mm in aluminium. N. Peter Evans |
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On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:20:53 +0700, Egis/CORE
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email The day I give an RM30 about a catamaran is the day I get worried....G To stay in the real world, if you approach a mast manufacturer with the intent of designing a mast you will be asked for the righting moment, usually RM30, i.e., Righting Moment at 30 degrees. If you approach a marine engineer/boat designer for information regarding the strength of a mast you will be asked for the RM30. ************************************************** *** Have you noticed that people always run from what they _need_ toward what they want????? |
Contact Rob Denney directly.
Unlike any contributor to this thread thus far, he knows about proas. peterMelbourneAustralia wrote: I am almost finished designing a 23ft proa and am aware of a new aluminium section for sale; I would like to know if it will be strong enough for a mast. The proa has a mainsail around 100sqr feet (a little less). At either end are small furling jibs for balance (30 sqr ft). The mast is round section, 6m high, 82mm in diameter and 2.6mm thick. It is made of the proper high grade aluminium from a professional mastmaker. It does not have a track, the mainsail being attached to the mast via lashings. There are 3 stays at the top, one forward, one aft and one to windward, 90 deg to other 2. Three stays is all a proa needs!!!! From my days sailing windrush catamarans, I am a littel worried that the 82mm diameter might not be enough. I know circular section is not high performance but that is not of concern. I am keen on this section because it is new, made of high grade metal, from a professional and failry cheap, $250 Australian. I intend to go cruising, thus needs to be able of withstanding strong winds. Have every intention of reefing when gets blowy. 23ft proa weighs 200kg unladen. Will/should 82mm diameter be sufficent? N. Peter Evans |
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:44:31 GMT, Jim Conlin
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Contact Rob Denney directly. Unlike any contributor to this thread thus far, he knows about proas. You are of course includeing yourself? ************************************************** *** Have you noticed that people always run from what they _need_ toward what they want????? |
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:55:38 GMT, Brian Whatcott
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email I have never seen so many different way of saying, "Ooh, mast section selection is awfully difficult and mathematical, and far too difficult for a regular person to consider...." Noooo...."Based on the very limited information given, and an admitted lack of knowledge about proas, which are completely different from any other craft in build stability, and sailing methods, I will not form an opinion about the corretc mast" The guy is basing it on a 14" cat. Not a proa. He is also looking a cruising, unlike a 14' cat. 14' cats are rarely sailed in 45 knot winds, on a cruiser you may have no choice. I hope you will realise sooner or later, that the basis of many mast selections is in fact "cut and try" and "It worked on that and the other so it should be OK on this..." As you say "Cut and try". But don't ask me to say you are right based on bugger all. ************************************************** *** Have you noticed that people always run from what they _need_ toward what they want????? |
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:44:31 GMT, Jim Conlin
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Contact Rob Denney directly. Unlike any contributor to this thread thus far, he knows about proas. Which is what some of us were honest enough to say. No need for the dig, thanks. ************************************************** *** Have you noticed that people always run from what they _need_ toward what they want????? |
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:54:59 +0800, Old Nick
wrote: ...."Based on the very limited information given, and an admitted lack of knowledge about proas, which are completely different from any other craft in build stability, and sailing methods, I will not form an opinion about the corretc mast" When asked for help, no matter how partial or sketchy the background offered, if you cannot form an opinion, wouldn't it be better to forebear from posting on the topic? Brian W |
Mt last post in this thread I think.
The outrigger is 15ft long, weighs 25kg unladen, but has 50kg of water ballast. The outrigger is 4m from the main hull and always to the lee hull. Yes crew can go out on the tramp towards the outrigger for more righting moment, but unlikley in very strong winds due to safety. The mainsail is 85sq feet. I have a jib, which is smaller, approx 60 sqr feet, but am thinking of cutting it up to make even smaller jibs at far ends to balance the rig. My feeling is that the windrush 12 cat I sailed had a rig that was strong enough in huge blows and went like the wind. So if I new what that was feel that similar would be fine. Rob Denney uses unstayed carbon masts. My question has been posted on a site that he looks at regularly but he has not posted. Dont want to annoy him again with another email. What I will do is look at rigs of small cats (closest to my 170kg proa), and see what mast sections they are using. 14ft and 12 ft cats seem the best comparisons for they go out in huge blows without undue drama. N. Peter Evans |
peterMelbourneAustralia ) writes: .... The outrigger is 4m from the main hull and always to the lee hull. Yes crew can go out on the tramp towards the outrigger for more righting moment, but unlikley in very strong winds due to safety. traditionally crew hike to windward. not a slave to tradition myself. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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