Decide on a sail maker sail.
 

Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?
2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

3. Is it usually possible to choose the sails reef technique and /or
fastening method?

4. Can a tube GRP mast match an aluminum one in matter of stiffness? ...or
will it get way to big radius to match?

Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:
Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?

for a dingy you usually suspend a 50 lb weight from the middle of he luff
position on the mast and measure the deflection for the sail maker. if you
use a mast off a one-design boat (eg a Proctor mast off a Wayfarer) the
sail maker probably has a pattern to go with the mast but it will be the
sail area used on the one-design boat.

2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

you can discuss the weight of sail cloth used.


3. Is it usually possible to choose the sails reef technique and /or
fastening method?

4. Can a tube GRP mast match an aluminum one in matter of stiffness? ...or
will it get way to big radius to match?

Morgan O.


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On 11 Oct 2004 15:49:58 GMT, William R. Watt wrote:

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:
Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?

for a dingy you usually suspend a 50 lb weight from the middle of he luff
position on the mast and measure the deflection for the sail maker.

That must go for a stayed mast. How about an unstayed?


if you
use a mast off a one-design boat (eg a Proctor mast off a Wayfarer) the
sail maker probably has a pattern to go with the mast but it will be the
sail area used on the one-design boat.

Yes, and that is my question.... does the maker know what kind of sail
pattern he has. If I like to make a mast I need data... just knowing wich
mast it may suit isn't much information to me... what I can see from here.


2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

you can discuss the weight of sail cloth used.

....and the profile?


Morgan O.

Morgan says:

Yes, and that is my question.... does the maker know what kind of sail
pattern he has.

If he doesn't, he isn't much of a sail-maker.

If I like to make a mast I need data... just knowing wich
mast it may suit isn't much information to me... what I can see from here.

Before you design the mast, talk to a sailmaker. Custom sails are more
expensive than sails for an established class, which will already have patterns
available. It may be much cheaper to buy a pre-made rig for a known boat.

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:39:52 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote:

Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?
Yes he can

2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

Yes, although for most dinghies one uses the same mainsail all the
time.

3. Is it usually possible to choose the sails reef technique and /or
fastening method?

May be determined by the normal construction in the class. In racing
dinghies, reefing became obsolete ca 1950.





Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record?
For better or worse?

I would not be overly concerned about the sail. I sail my small boats on
narrow waters all the time, up river, down river, past high rise apartment
buildings, high banks, and low banks. The sails are all home made and
oddly shaped. Only the last one has any fullness built in by cutting
curved edges. And I sail the boats without rudders, using a paddle to help
tack. I have even sailed a shallow twisting narrow channel through a marsh
with the dagger board up. You can see old pictures in books of sails on
fishing boats and coastal cargo boats of odd shapes full of patches.
Unless you are racing it desn't matter all that much.



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On 11 Oct 2004 21:09:45 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:

Morgan says:

Yes, and that is my question.... does the maker know what kind of sail
pattern he has.

If he doesn't, he isn't much of a sail-maker.

If I like to make a mast I need data... just knowing wich
mast it may suit isn't much information to me... what I can see from here.

Before you design the mast, talk to a sailmaker. Custom sails are more
expensive than sails for an established class, which will already have patterns
available. It may be much cheaper to buy a pre-made rig for a known boat.

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

Finding a matching

sail area (main and jib)
AND ratio (hight & foot)
AND mast length from base to boom
AND proper stayes (non-stayed)
AND (the most difficult) a self tacking, bomed jib

Is probably to many factors to find a standard rig.

So I must design something myself. I think I manage the mast best!

My present plan include designing just the rig and sail-plan. From that find
the best ´look-alike¡ sails from some large scale produced boat and make the
needed adjustment.

....and a proper design of the mast according to length and appropriate
bending at a (set) wind strength.

Morgan

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:34:46 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:39:52 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote:

Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?
Yes he can

Good!



2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

Yes, although for most dinghies one uses the same mainsail all the
time.

Reasonable, but is good to know about at purchase...


3. Is it usually possible to choose the sails reef technique and /or
fastening method?

May be determined by the normal construction in the class. In racing
dinghies, reefing became obsolete ca 1950.

Naturally non-racing dinghies is a little more in focus for my usage.

Wayfarer
GP14
JY15
snipe
windmill
x boat
Tanzer16

The problem, at the moment is more about wich sails may be put together
combined with a reasonable home made mast (tube-GRP). Loos or fix foot?

I think... hmmm... that a stiff mast is easier to produce to the proper
carachteristics.
A home made bendy mast may bend in strange ways. Especially after fitting a
"sail runner rail" (I hate my english)

If the mast can be made from some kind of standard tube it would probably
make things easier.

What is a normal mast radius for a 10m2 sail dinghy?


Morgan O.

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:39:52 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote:

Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?
2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

3. Is it usually possible to choose the sails reef technique and /or
fastening method?

4. Can a tube GRP mast match an aluminum one in matter of stiffness? ...or
will it get way to big radius to match?

Morgan O.

Decisions right now.

1. decide /fix sail area. (Bermuda sloop, main + jib)
Present alternative 10m2 (115sqft) gives SA/D-ratio

1pers minimum load = 23
main design weight = 18
max design weight = 14


2. Main loose or fix foot


3. Finding a combination of standard sails to use.


Morgan O.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:31:50 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:39:52 GMT, Morgan Ohlson wrote:

Decide on a sail maker sail.

If I choose a couple of standard (common dinghies) sails. Can the sail maker
(dealer) tell
1. how large mast bending it's designed for (his standard CAD pattern for
that dinghy)?
2. if it's a weak or strong wind sail?

3. Is it usually possible to choose the sails reef technique and /or
fastening method?

4. Can a tube GRP mast match an aluminum one in matter of stiffness? ...or
will it get way to big radius to match?

Morgan O.

Decisions right now.

1. decide /fix sail area. (Bermuda sloop, main + jib)
Present alternative 10m2 (115sqft) gives SA/D-ratio

1pers minimum load = 23
main design weight = 18
max design weight = 14


2. Main loose or fix foot


3. Finding a combination of standard sails to use.
Including choosing stiff or bendy mast and design material.



Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson wrote:

The problem, at the moment is more about wich sails may be put together
combined with a reasonable home made mast (tube-GRP)

A stiff mast in GPR will weigth to much or be too bendy, glass is just too
elastic for that purpose. If you want to build the mast yourself, I'd try a
wood/carbon/epoxy setup. Wood for ease of construction (otherwise you need
to make a mandrel/plug first) and for compression, carbon for stiffnes and
epoxy to glue it all together with some margin for error.

besides, I'd go fo a balanced lug for ease of handling. Just one sail,
relatively easy to make and no long spars or mast needed. You wont get a
high aspect ratio with it, but you should not strive for that on your boat
anyway.


--
vriendelijke groeten/kind regards,

Jelle

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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:37:36 +0200, Jelle wrote:

Morgan Ohlson wrote:

The problem, at the moment is more about wich sails may be put together
combined with a reasonable home made mast (tube-GRP)

A stiff mast in GPR will weigth to much or be too bendy,

Which radius are you talking about?

Here is a homie GRP-mast for a Roamer
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3387/index.htm

glass is just too
elastic for that purpose. If you want to build the mast yourself, I'd try a
wood/carbon/epoxy setup.

Sometimes more expencive stuff is better. Probably it is in this case.


Wood for ease of construction (otherwise you need
to make a mandrel/plug first)

No there are plenty of other ways!


and for compression, carbon for stiffnes and
epoxy to glue it all together with some margin for error.

besides, I'd go fo a balanced lug for ease of handling. Just one sail,
relatively easy to make and no long spars or mast needed.

My good, stop that romantic mumbo jumbo!

....and, why the **** should anyone invest in hours of building a
carbon-combination and for a lug?

Yes, yes... buy carbon fibers and build a garden trolly ;o)

Actually, I'm quite convinced that you are trying to pull my leg.


You wont get a
high aspect ratio with it, but you should not strive for that on your boat
anyway.

Huh!

....naturally there was no argument for that last part :oP


Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:37:36 +0200, Jelle wrote:
Morgan Ohlson wrote:
The problem, at the moment is more about wich sails may be put together
combined with a reasonable home made mast (tube-GRP)
A stiff mast in GPR will weigth to much or be too bendy,
Which radius are you talking about?

none specified by you.
Here is a homie GRP-mast for a Roamer
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3387/index.htm

And what a real succes it was! did you see the picture where they determined
the mast bend? That is what gave me the impression that GPR is too bendy.

glass is just too
elastic for that purpose. If you want to build the mast yourself, I'd try
a wood/carbon/epoxy setup.
Sometimes more expencive stuff is better. Probably it is in this case.

Sure if you have the money and the experience. As a novice I'd keep it
simple.

Wood for ease of construction (otherwise you need
to make a mandrel/plug first)

No there are plenty of other ways!

Please enlighten me, because i have not found any descriptions of anything
other yet.

and for compression, carbon for stiffnes and
epoxy to glue it all together with some margin for error.
besides, I'd go fo a balanced lug for ease of handling. Just one sail,
relatively easy to make and no long spars or mast needed.
My good, stop that romantic mumbo jumbo!

so you want a long spar and difficult to make sail? I don't see much
romantic in any type of sailrig

...and, why the **** should anyone invest in hours of building a
carbon-combination and for a lug?

Because a lug has one side free of an obstructing mast spoiling airflow (two
if you dip it). If you are making that mast yourself anyway, why should you
not include a handfull of carbon tape in it? Sure a pure carbon wingmast
with a high aspect sail is very efficient, but I don't think most novice
builders can pull that off.

Yes, yes... buy carbon fibers and build a garden trolly ;o)
Actually, I'm quite convinced that you are trying to pull my leg.

If that is how you react to people with a different opinion, I pity you.

You wont get a
high aspect ratio with it, but you should not strive for that on your
boat anyway.
Huh!
...naturally there was no argument for that last part :oP

Novice sailor, (age?) not racing, practical transporter. I cannot see a need
for a super efficient rig, and I do see some reasons why you would want a
simple rig. (I see no reasons for that super light hull too, for that
matter, you're even planning on an outboard and waterballast on it too!)

But hey you dreamed it up, so you must have a logical explanation for it I
am sure.

--
vriendelijke groeten/kind regards,

Jelle

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