|
Ccanoe sailing
I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee
board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency? |
It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2' behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind. I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet. "Stephen Baker" wrote in message ... Ron, Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all? Give us a hint. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all? Give us a hint. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:21:30 -0400, "Ron" wrote:
I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency? Do you know how to sail a boat designed to sail to windward? If you understand how that works you might have a chance. But, no matter what you do, it will never equal a purpose-designed sailboat of any competence. It is like asking a steam shovel to plaw a corn field. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC We have achieved faith-based science, faith-based economics, faith-based law enforcement, and faith-based missile defense. What's next? Faith-based air traffic control? |
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:
"Stephen Baker" wrote in message ... Ron, Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all? Give us a hint. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm [top-posting fixed] It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2' behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind. I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet. What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it: center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much heel. So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat more upright. Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one. Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with the type of leeboard you describe. --Mac |
I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small. The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better shaped board make a significant difference? "Mac" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote: "Stephen Baker" wrote in message ... Ron, Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all? Give us a hint. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm [top-posting fixed] It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2' behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind. I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet. What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it: center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much heel. So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat more upright. Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one. Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with the type of leeboard you describe. --Mac |
(This may be a repost on some hosts which do not act on delete requests as I accidentally hit the post key while making a change to the text. It's not a big change and won't make much of a difference.) I've found that putting the leeboard under the rear edge (leech) of the sail gives good ballance on narrow rudderless sailboats. you can look at the rigs on my home made boats at www.ncf.ca/~ag384/Boats.htm. I experimented on my Dogskiff with a keel screwed to the skids on the bottom of the boat. Was able to reposition this keel until I got good balance. that was under the leech. I find these small boats sensitive to sail balance. I use daggerboards which it's a good idea to install on an angle (as shown in the photos). It's also important where the crew sits in the boat. I've screwed a small spirit level to the gunwale on the smallest boat (Loonie) so I can tell when it's sailing level. raising and lowering the daggerboards and shifting my weight around makes a big difference to sail and hull balance. on the Dogskiff with the original sail under certain conditions I can raise the daggerboard 1/3 of the way up and get the boat to tack on its own without rudder or paddle. note that a flat bottom boat it will slide off to leeward when tacking. you have to heel the boat and let out the sail to get it to round up onto the other tack. flat bottom boats are somewhat prone to capsizing when tacking in a gust with the sail pulled in and the boat falling off to leeward. it helps when tacking to move your weight forward. that was the technique used in the rudderless St lawrence skiff sailing races. when taking the dogskiff when it is making way I reach forward with the paddle on the lee sied and use a bow pry, when it is not making way I reach forward with the paddle tucked under my armpit and use a bow draw. I only have to use teh paddle to tack. it takes a while to learn to sail without a rudder but I find my boats to be very responsive. to turn upwind let out sail and heel the boat to leeward, moving your weight forward it need be. to turn to leeward pull the sail in and keep the boat flat, moving your weight aft if need be. there was a book published in the 1800's telling of a cruise among the Carribean Islands on a rudderless sailing canoe. you can move up to a bigger sail on the boat if you ever want. 60 sq ft would not be too big. "Ron" ) writes: I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email All of my advice is free, and worth what you paid for it. I do not know your boat, your sail, your experience or intentions. I also have no idea of the wind, water etc conditions you will be working with. IMO, rudderless sailing of any craft is an art. You have been effectively using your paddle as a rudder. The rudders of _most_ sailing craft will have some "weather helm" (you need to pull the tiller toward the wind, so as to make the boat head away from the wind), and this is considered a safety factor. Let the rudder go (get bashed on the head by the boom?) and the boat simply heads up and stops. But the helm should not be excessive. That is to say it should be feelable, but not painful or uncomfortable to use. Obviously, the further the rudder is away from the centre of actions of the craft, the less effort will be required of the rudder to guide the boat against forces. The (back most commonly) end of the boat is best, but this is not always so. There are boats that use the leeboard/centreboard position, mast step position or rake, and sail attitude to balance the boat. As I said, it's an art. The _principles_ are simple. Put very basically, leeboard aft, boat downwind. Sail _effort_ aft, boat upwind. Move either, or the leeboard forward of the Centre of Effort of the sail, and you alter everything...depending on the boat's own "keel" effect (not much in a flat bottomed, round-chined canoe). But again, be aware that: (a) the helm can alter drastically as you alter your sail's relationship to the wind and to the craft - have you done any other sailing in a predesigned craft? * if not, at least study the basic principles of sailing. * One of the commonest reasons for pulling upwind is to have the main sail sheeted home way too tight, especially in boats with no jib. This moves the CofE back, and heads the boat up. But naturally, having the sail out one side of the boat will always pull it one way....back to the rudder, or a lot of fiddling with leeboard position. (b) a "perfectly balanced" boat could keep sailing if you fell overboard. Having said that, in a canoe even you own weight will have a possible drastic efect on the actions of the craft. Moving weight fore or aft, or side to side, could completely alter the dynamics of the boat. I would _experiment _ with giving the boat _slight_ weather helm, then look at a rudder, or accept using the paddle as one. It is rare to have a boat set up to sail _down_wind by itself. If you are sailing high, and something happens, the boat would fall away, and in the process go through the maximum power band, then simply sail away down wind, sail full of air. In many light boats (cats and _maybe_ canoes), _deliberately_ sailing downwind under duress is a good idea, because (the theory goes) you can accelerate fast enough to relieve pressure on the craft. If you are moving fast, and head upwind, you can increase the apparent wind. But having headed downwind, you can then be on the "Nantucket Sleighride" G. It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2' behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind. I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet. "Stephen Baker" wrote in message ... Ron, Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all? Give us a hint. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm ************************************************** *** Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so that neither of them can do what they want to because of the other one. |
William R. Watt ) writes: ....when taking the dogskiff when it is making way I reach forward with the paddle on the lee sied and use a bow pry, when it is not making way I reach forward with the paddle tucked under my armpit and use a bow draw. second part should read "when it is not making SUFFICIENT way I reach forward ON THE WINDWARD SIDE with the paddle tucked under my armpit and use a bow draw." sorry about that -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, "Ron" wrote:
I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small. The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better shaped board make a significant difference? "Mac" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote: I did quite a bit of sailing in a sportspal canoe as a teenager. The factory sailing kit used a sea snark sail the mast mounted through the front deck only about a foot from the bow. The leeboards attached to the centre thwart and were made of 1"x6" about 3'long and were tapered at the front. The rudder was a canoe paddle with an oarlock that set into a hole at the end of the outboard motor mount. This set up would point into the wind quite well and was reasonably fast. I had a lot of fun with it and learned most of what I know about sailing in this boat (wich isn't much :)) |
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, Ron wrote:
[re-arranged text to appear in chronological order] "Mac" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote: "Stephen Baker" wrote in message ... Ron, Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all? Give us a hint. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm [top-posting fixed] It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2' behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind. I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet. What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it: center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much heel. So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat more upright. Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one. Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with the type of leeboard you describe. --Mac I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small. The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better shaped board make a significant difference? I can't say from experience that a proper foil-shaped leeboard would make a big difference, but from what I understand of aero- and hydrodynamic theory, which may not be much, it could make a big difference under some circumstances. In order for a leeboard to function, it has to provide lift. It can only provide lift if it has an angle of attack. Put another way, when the boat experiences a force to leeward, there will always be a little bit of slippage. If you consider the slippage, then it is clear that the water is flowing over the leeboard at an angle. This angle is called the angle of attack. The aerodynamics of a flat-plate (which is what your leeboard is, AFAICS) are OK as long as the angle of attack is very small (i.e., the boat doesn't make much leeway), but they rapidly go to pot when there is a large angle of attack. By "go to pot" I mean that the drag forces become very large, which will keep you from making good headway. I think it is a good idea to get the boat more or less balanced first, then try playing with a foiled leeboard if you desire. Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can try a leeboard with more surface area. It sounds as though you are steering with a paddle as a rudder, which should work fine once you get the boat more balanced. (I base this on another poster's testimony, not on personal experience!) Good luck! --Mac |
Mac ) writes: Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can try a leeboard with more surface area. 1 sq ft in the water for evey 40-50 sq ft of sail. since his current sail si 44 sq ft that means 1 sq ft of leeboard under the water. since a canoe has little lateral resistance compared to a sialign dingy a bit more wouldn't hurt. a plywood or lumber or metal plate leeboard or daggerboard is fine. round off the leading edge and leave a 1/8" flat on the trailing edge. when using plywood I cover the leading and trailing edge with resin and leave the middle ply on the trailing edge flat. They sell used aluminum street signs locally for $5 and I've been tempted to try one as a leeboard or daggerboard. crusing sailing canoes in the late 1800's had removeabe 60 lb metal plate centreboards for lateral resistance and balast. if the mast is stepped right at the bow it will depress the bow more as wind speed increases. all that means is you have to move back in the boat or lower the leeboard or daggerboard to compensate for the greater lateral resistance in the bow. I accidentally put my Loonie with it's mast stepped right at the bow out of balance by moving the backrest aft to give me more leg room. I now have to slouch to keep the boat sailing in a straight line. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:52 +0800, Old Nick
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Well _I_ thought ot was an OK reply..... ************************************************** *** Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so that neither of them can do what they want to because of the other one. |
I just got back from sailing the canoe thru East Harbor (Ohio State Park)
and into Lake Erie with a great south wind (I parked my bike at the beach and rode it into the wind to get my car). I moved the sail and leeboard forward each time I took it out and each time it improved windward sailing. I did keep weight forward windward and probably sheeted too tight but had a great "Nantucket Sleighride" moving aft with the wind. Still lots of weather helm to the point of no time to eat a sandwich but in a gust it was exciting. I plan on rigging a rudder but still want to understand the balance. I do have very limited experience in a Lazer but right now I prefer the challenge of the canoe. Thanks for your advice "Old Nick" wrote in message ... On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:52 +0800, Old Nick vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Well _I_ thought ot was an OK reply..... ************************************************** *** Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so that neither of them can do what they want to because of the other one. |
Thanks for the info. The Hardboard siding leeboard is not holding up after
a trip to East Harbor (Ohio state park) The board is twisted and I really had to work to get the boat moving forward into the wind at times. It wanted to slip sideways or worse backwards untill I turned with the paddle. once moving I did better. "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... Mac ) writes: Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can try a leeboard with more surface area. 1 sq ft in the water for evey 40-50 sq ft of sail. since his current sail si 44 sq ft that means 1 sq ft of leeboard under the water. since a canoe has little lateral resistance compared to a sialign dingy a bit more wouldn't hurt. a plywood or lumber or metal plate leeboard or daggerboard is fine. round off the leading edge and leave a 1/8" flat on the trailing edge. when using plywood I cover the leading and trailing edge with resin and leave the middle ply on the trailing edge flat. They sell used aluminum street signs locally for $5 and I've been tempted to try one as a leeboard or daggerboard. crusing sailing canoes in the late 1800's had removeabe 60 lb metal plate centreboards for lateral resistance and balast. if the mast is stepped right at the bow it will depress the bow more as wind speed increases. all that means is you have to move back in the boat or lower the leeboard or daggerboard to compensate for the greater lateral resistance in the bow. I accidentally put my Loonie with it's mast stepped right at the bow out of balance by moving the backrest aft to give me more leg room. I now have to slouch to keep the boat sailing in a straight line. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what you want to hear ************************************************** *** I have decided that I should not be offended by anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's good, anyway. |
Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I
hear. I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages before I went. I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard. It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more effective but I still thought I might break a paddle. I do appreciate all the advice. I kind of thought I was learning on this trip so I might be able to ask better questions. But if you think I still need to learn more, I'll tell my wife I need to go away again. She'll probably would agree, in theory. "Old Nick" wrote in message ... On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what you want to hear ************************************************** *** I have decided that I should not be offended by anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's good, anyway. |
"Ron" ) writes: Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I hear. Rudderless sailing is not common. It would be a challenge for experienced sailors. Keep at it and you will have a rare skill. It's neat not to have to lug a rudder and tiller around for a cartop or portaged boat. I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages before I went. I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard. It might be possible to take advantage of tumblehome (where the sides curve in at the top on some canoes) to angle the leeboard out a bit as is done on the oringinal Dutch sailing barges. Barend Migchelsen claims it makes them more effective. His website is probably still active although he hasn't posted in this newsgroup for over a year now. It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more effective but I still thought I might break a paddle. sounds like excessive weather helm (broaching). It was a big problem on the Blue Canoe I made out of plastic barrels. The sail was rigth at the bow of that narrow boat and it had no lateral resistance except the paddle at the stern. Try letting the sail out to dump wind - less power, more control. Always have to be ready to let the sail run out on a small boat to avoid loss off control to the wind. There's not a lot written about sailing narrow boats like canoes. A sail with a mast sleeve can be free to rotate right around the mast. The sail can be let out before the mast like a spinnaker. That way broaching and "death roll" are avoided. Death roll is where the boat starts rocking uncontrollably from side to side under the influence of the sail downwind but it can be controlled by letting the sail go forward and dumping wind. There is still lots of wind in the sail for an exicting ride. I've been able to sail my small boats in strong winds that way. I wrote an article about it for DuckWorks. I'm working on a larger version of a rotating sprit sail for small boats, this season's tyvek sail on my website. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
when the sail is balanced you will not need to use the paddle except to tack. a rudder won't help. on a ballance rig the rudder is almost neutral, just used to turn the boat. on an unbalanced boat using the rudder to compensate just turns the rudder into a drag. sail balance is the key. put the mast where it's most convenient in the boat and move the leeboard back more in relation to the mast than what you have now. don't be concerned about moving the leeboard back more than you'd think proper. when you get excessive lee helm it's time to move it forward. I'd start with the leeboard under the back edge of the sail. I found moving the centre of lateral resistance six inches on the Dogskiff made a difference. anything less wasn't noticeable. there is an area for the leeboard relative to the mast where your canoe sailing rig is be in balance. the canoe is only 18 ft long. you will find it eventually. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Thanks for the info and more important, the encouragement to keep working at
a silly thing like using everything you know to do the best you can. I don't have tumblehome but could angle the board regardless. I'll probably wait to try that as it involves changes to the hardware. I did keep the sheet in my hand and dumped wind (and almost alittle more during an accidental gybe in the channel leading out into lake Erie). I did'nt experience "death roll" but mostly excessive weather helm. I'll search for your DuckWorks article. Again, thanks. "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... "Ron" ) writes: Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I hear. Rudderless sailing is not common. It would be a challenge for experienced sailors. Keep at it and you will have a rare skill. It's neat not to have to lug a rudder and tiller around for a cartop or portaged boat. I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages before I went. I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard. It might be possible to take advantage of tumblehome (where the sides curve in at the top on some canoes) to angle the leeboard out a bit as is done on the oringinal Dutch sailing barges. Barend Migchelsen claims it makes them more effective. His website is probably still active although he hasn't posted in this newsgroup for over a year now. It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more effective but I still thought I might break a paddle. sounds like excessive weather helm (broaching). It was a big problem on the Blue Canoe I made out of plastic barrels. The sail was rigth at the bow of that narrow boat and it had no lateral resistance except the paddle at the stern. Try letting the sail out to dump wind - less power, more control. Always have to be ready to let the sail run out on a small boat to avoid loss off control to the wind. There's not a lot written about sailing narrow boats like canoes. A sail with a mast sleeve can be free to rotate right around the mast. The sail can be let out before the mast like a spinnaker. That way broaching and "death roll" are avoided. Death roll is where the boat starts rocking uncontrollably from side to side under the influence of the sail downwind but it can be controlled by letting the sail go forward and dumping wind. There is still lots of wind in the sail for an exicting ride. I've been able to sail my small boats in strong winds that way. I wrote an article about it for DuckWorks. I'm working on a larger version of a rotating sprit sail for small boats, this season's tyvek sail on my website. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
I'm getting it.
On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in the canoe and sail placement? "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... when the sail is balanced you will not need to use the paddle except to tack. a rudder won't help. on a ballance rig the rudder is almost neutral, just used to turn the boat. on an unbalanced boat using the rudder to compensate just turns the rudder into a drag. sail balance is the key. put the mast where it's most convenient in the boat and move the leeboard back more in relation to the mast than what you have now. don't be concerned about moving the leeboard back more than you'd think proper. when you get excessive lee helm it's time to move it forward. I'd start with the leeboard under the back edge of the sail. I found moving the centre of lateral resistance six inches on the Dogskiff made a difference. anything less wasn't noticeable. there is an area for the leeboard relative to the mast where your canoe sailing rig is be in balance. the canoe is only 18 ft long. you will find it eventually. :) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:28:24 -0400, "Ron" wrote:
I'm getting it. On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in the canoe and sail placement? Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast, (Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat. Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now. Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!! |
"Ron" ) writes: I'm getting it. On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in the canoe and sail placement? you may already know that when two people are paddling a canoe, especailly an empty one, the weight is concentrated at the ends. it's good for steering but it is not the best weight distribution. when one person is paddling an empty canoe he or she sits in the centre. this is a better weight distribution as it leave the ends empty and bouyant. as more weight is added, be it kids or cargo, keeping the weight centralized would also be best for sailing. steering under sail using sail balance with or without a rudder does not require sitting near the end. as can be seen in photos on my website I sit on the bottom and use a backrest when sailing. I pulled a back muscle trying to sail sitting on the bottom without a backrest. the backrest is positioned so my weight is centralized in the boat. I'd sail for a while without a backrest until body position for good balance is known. on the 7.5 ft boat the backrest is a permanent aft deck. on the 11.5 ft boat the backrest is removable and rotates to change the angle. TF Jones uses a rope and canvas backrest on his Tuckahoe 12 narrow sailiboat which he sails sitting on the bottom. sitting on the bottom (on a cushion) keeps the weight low and is less tiring than sitting up and moving one's weight around all the time to compensate for the sail. I don't have enough sail on my boats to sit out on the gunwale but that is how to get more speed and excitement out of the sailing if desired. I've seen photos of canoe sailors sitting out over the side just like other small boat sailors. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
P.C. Ford ) writes: Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast, (Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat. I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races. They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull. Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now. Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!! I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO. I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... P.C. Ford ) writes: Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast, (Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat. So loading the canoe and moving the people is part of sailing the canoe. With kids I've learned you lean one way and point the other as you say "look at that". I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races. They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull. So loading involves leaving room to move yourself or others to steer. This is getting more interesting all the time. The canoe has three cross members and two fixed seats (not used when sailing). I like the idea of having a crew to help steer. I'm going to teach a whole new generation because it is not going to be a lost art. Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now. Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!! I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO. I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power. My biggest issue is getting the time and interest of the kids to go out exploring. I've used food and try to make it fun but competition is tough (going to the YMCA or local amusement park instead). I hope that the excitement of sailing will get them. We got towed upwind on our local lake and they enjoyed that but I saw it as a failure of my ability to sail upwind, hence all my questions. We do paddle or float down the Little Miami River. We don't have two way rivers (without alot of tracking and hard paddling) around here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:40:24 -0400, "Ron" wrote:
"William R. Watt" wrote in message ... P.C. Ford ) writes: Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast, (Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat. So loading the canoe and moving the people is part of sailing the canoe. With kids I've learned you lean one way and point the other as you say "look at that". I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races. They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull. So loading involves leaving room to move yourself or others to steer. This is getting more interesting all the time. The canoe has three cross members and two fixed seats (not used when sailing). I like the idea of having a crew to help steer. I'm going to teach a whole new generation because it is not going to be a lost art. Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now. Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!! I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO. I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power. My biggest issue is getting the time and interest of the kids to go out exploring. I've used food and try to make it fun but competition is tough (going to the YMCA or local amusement park instead). I hope that the excitement of sailing will get them. We got towed upwind on our local lake and they enjoyed that but I saw it as a failure of my ability to sail upwind, hence all my questions. We do paddle or float down the Little Miami River. We don't have two way rivers (without alot of tracking and hard paddling) around here. There is a huge difference between upwond sailing in a purpose-designed sailboat and an afterthought sailing rig on a boat designed for something else. To be fair to these kids, you must expose them to real sailboats, which doesn't mean big and expensive. Lasers, 420s, Larks, and Flying Juniors are real sailboats. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
Rodney Myrvaagnes ) writes: There is a huge difference between upwond sailing in a purpose-designed sailboat and an afterthought sailing rig on a boat designed for something else. To be fair to these kids, you must expose them to real sailboats, which doesn't mean big and expensive. Lasers, 420s, Larks, and Flying Juniors are real sailboats. I'll certainly have to take exception to that interjection. Coincidentaly today I had the first opportunity to sail the Dogskiff alongside a "real" sailboat, a Siren 17, one of those small cabin cruisers. The Dogskiff pointed higher and made no more leeway. Besides, a Laser is not a BOAT. It's a plastic board with a sail stuck on it. A boat is something you sit IN, not ON. In sailing terminology any double ender is a "canoe" hull. A sailing canoe is just as much a sailboat as any other, and a much better performer than some, like those dumpy New England catboats. Harumph. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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William R. Watt wrote:
In sailing terminology any double ender is a "canoe" hull. No it isn't. If it were, then why would we need both terms? I think you're confused by the fact that *some* double enders are said to have "canoe sterns." ... A sailing canoe is just as much a sailboat as any other, and a much better performer than some, You mean like the IC class canoes? Yep they are pretty zippy. But I got the idea you were not talking about anything resembling those boats. .... like those dumpy New England catboats. Harumph. Some New England catboats are dumpy & slow. Many are not. You should get out more. In the immortal words of Rudyard Kipling, "Harumph, yourself." Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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Wow, I have a Lazer and prefer the canoe at this time.
Isn't the boat a great metaphor for freedom? Ron "Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message ... On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:40:24 -0400, "Ron" wrote: "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... P.C. Ford ) writes: Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast, (Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat. So loading the canoe and moving the people is part of sailing the canoe. With kids I've learned you lean one way and point the other as you say "look at that". I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races. They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull. So loading involves leaving room to move yourself or others to steer. This is getting more interesting all the time. The canoe has three cross members and two fixed seats (not used when sailing). I like the idea of having a crew to help steer. I'm going to teach a whole new generation because it is not going to be a lost art. Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now. Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!! I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO. I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power. My biggest issue is getting the time and interest of the kids to go out exploring. I've used food and try to make it fun but competition is tough (going to the YMCA or local amusement park instead). I hope that the excitement of sailing will get them. We got towed upwind on our local lake and they enjoyed that but I saw it as a failure of my ability to sail upwind, hence all my questions. We do paddle or float down the Little Miami River. We don't have two way rivers (without alot of tracking and hard paddling) around here. There is a huge difference between upwond sailing in a purpose-designed sailboat and an afterthought sailing rig on a boat designed for something else. To be fair to these kids, you must expose them to real sailboats, which doesn't mean big and expensive. Lasers, 420s, Larks, and Flying Juniors are real sailboats. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:34:18 -0400, "Ron" vaguely
proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Wow, I have a Lazer and prefer the canoe at this time. Isn't the boat a great metaphor for freedom? Yes. It's much more fun trying to work with something that makes things far more difficult for everybody. ************************************************** *** the snappy ones are the best |
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