The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Some recent posts in another thread advocated getting a big, bigger or
electric windlass when it came to the point whereby a largish 65 pound
anchor was difficult or injurious to the crew attempting to weigh said
anchor.

This is a stupid suggestion. The PROPER thing to do is get a smaller anchor.
Get ground tackle that the crew can handle without breaking his or her back
or giving themselves a stroke or heart attack. It is a well known fact that
a genuine Danforth Hi-tensile or Deep Set anchor or two weighing 25 pounds
each can securely anchor a vessel of up to thirty feet LOA.

So, the answer is NOT a larger or electric windlass but, rather, a SMALLER
BOAT!

Many people tend to fall into the trap of believing that bigger is better.
Not so! Bigger may be better but only if you are able to handle bigger. When
it comes to elderly folks towards or at the end of their useful sailing
careers - Bruce in Bangkok comes to mind - the wisest decision would be to
take stock of yourself, your much reduced abilities and lack of youthful
vigor and then chose a boat you can actually still handle. This means
downsizing. This means simplicity.

There is many a well-found and seaworthy vessel in the 25-30 foot range and
the anchors for such a vessel are not such a great burden that they must be
handled with heavy, trouble-prone, mechanical and electrical systems.
Because with age often comes not only muscle and bone weakness but weakness
of mind, eyesight, and hearing. Consequently, the ability to troubleshoot
mechanical and electrical systems may be greatly reduced or non-existent (as
is the case with Bruce in Bangkok or it would seem so from his
embarrassingly simplistic mechanical and electrical posts).

Rather than compound folly by trying to maintain such a large vessel that
sailing becomes dangerous or burdensome and a menace to other shipping (as
is the case with one Skip Grundlach as well as the captain of the erstwhile
'Red Cloud') it would be better for all concerned if such folks sailed
vessels that they could handle comfortably and so enjoy to a greater extent
and a longer time because of the reduced stress and wear and tear on the
failing old body.

Sometimes I think JimC has the right idea. For some people a Mac26X or M
might just be an ideal vessel. They are small, light can sail and motor
passably well and can even be trailored. They don't strain or stress their
crew. And, try as I might I've found it difficult to find a MacGregor owner
who was really dissatisfied with his small compromise vessel. Not that I'd
dare take a Mac26 on a long ocean voyage but I suppose a body would probably
be safer in one provided one knew how to sail her and realized her
limitations than in some old steel boat that was for her crew too big,
heavy, and ill-conceived and mechanically unsound to the point where her own
rudder punched holes in the transom. This would never happen in a MacGregor.
The rudders might break completely off without damaging the hull but that
would not be a disaster as the outboard motor could then be pressed into
service to do the steering.

But, I digress somewhat! The point is as you age and near the end of your
sailing career, think small. It will extend the days of bliss upon the
watery world. After all, isn't that what sailing's really all about.


Wilbur Hubbard

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:

Some recent posts in another thread advocated getting a big, bigger or
electric windlass when it came to the point whereby a largish 65 pound
anchor was difficult or injurious to the crew attempting to weigh said
anchor.

This is a stupid suggestion. The PROPER thing to do is get a smaller
anchor. Get ground tackle that the crew can handle without breaking
his or her back or giving themselves a stroke or heart attack. It is a
well known fact that a genuine Danforth Hi-tensile or Deep Set anchor
or two weighing 25 pounds each can securely anchor a vessel of up to
thirty feet LOA.

So, the answer is NOT a larger or electric windlass but, rather, a
SMALLER BOAT!

Many people tend to fall into the trap of believing that bigger is
better. Not so! Bigger may be better but only if you are able to
handle bigger. When it comes to elderly folks towards or at the end of
their useful sailing careers - Bruce in Bangkok comes to mind - the
wisest decision would be to take stock of yourself, your much reduced
abilities and lack of youthful vigor and then chose a boat you can
actually still handle. This means downsizing. This means simplicity.

There is many a well-found and seaworthy vessel in the 25-30 foot
range and the anchors for such a vessel are not such a great burden
that they must be handled with heavy, trouble-prone, mechanical and
electrical systems. Because with age often comes not only muscle and
bone weakness but weakness of mind, eyesight, and hearing.
Consequently, the ability to troubleshoot mechanical and electrical
systems may be greatly reduced or non-existent (as is the case with
Bruce in Bangkok or it would seem so from his embarrassingly
simplistic mechanical and electrical posts).

Rather than compound folly by trying to maintain such a large vessel
that sailing becomes dangerous or burdensome and a menace to other
shipping (as is the case with one Skip Grundlach as well as the
captain of the erstwhile 'Red Cloud') it would be better for all
concerned if such folks sailed vessels that they could handle
comfortably and so enjoy to a greater extent and a longer time because
of the reduced stress and wear and tear on the failing old body.

Sometimes I think JimC has the right idea. For some people a Mac26X or
M might just be an ideal vessel. They are small, light can sail and
motor passably well and can even be trailored. They don't strain or
stress their crew. And, try as I might I've found it difficult to find
a MacGregor owner who was really dissatisfied with his small
compromise vessel. Not that I'd dare take a Mac26 on a long ocean
voyage but I suppose a body would probably be safer in one provided
one knew how to sail her and realized her limitations than in some old
steel boat that was for her crew too big, heavy, and ill-conceived and
mechanically unsound to the point where her own rudder punched holes
in the transom. This would never happen in a MacGregor. The rudders
might break completely off without damaging the hull but that would
not be a disaster as the outboard motor could then be pressed into
service to do the steering.

But, I digress somewhat! The point is as you age and near the end of
your sailing career, think small. It will extend the days of bliss
upon the watery world. After all, isn't that what sailing's really all
about.


Wilbur Hubbard






Would you be interested in a good government job in our News Media
Liason Department. You seem to know your stuff. The more old folks we
can get to go sailing in small, unseaworthy boats means more likely loss
of life. This could reduce the burgeoning cost of government services to
the aged.

Scientific studies indicate that the U.S.A. will be crushed economically
by the growing tide of aged Americans because of the payment of
government entitlements they have been promised. However, what we got
here is a ponzi scheme. This house of cards will tumble and fall unless
we can flood the country with young illegal aliens and put them to work
so they pay Medicare and Soach Security but deny or delay them
citizenship so they cannot collect benefits. This will swell the coffers
but anything the government can do to increase the retirement age or
facilitate the passing on of the elderly will be even more helpful from
the standpoint of increasing funds by decreasing payouts. This one/two
punch approach will ensure continued healthy and growing government.

And a hefty luxury tax should be immediately assessed on every
recreational boat sold. The function of any populace is to grow
government because a large involved government knows what is best for
its citizens. This benefits society in the long run.

--
W. Mouch, State Science Institute

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
Some recent posts in another thread advocated getting a big, bigger or
electric windlass when it came to the point whereby a largish 65 pound
anchor was difficult or injurious to the crew attempting to weigh said
anchor.

This is a stupid suggestion. The PROPER thing to do is get a smaller
anchor. Get ground tackle that the crew can handle without breaking his or
her back or giving themselves a stroke or heart attack. It is a well known
fact that a genuine Danforth Hi-tensile or Deep Set anchor or two weighing
25 pounds each can securely anchor a vessel of up to thirty feet LOA.

So, the answer is NOT a larger or electric windlass but, rather, a SMALLER
BOAT!

Many people tend to fall into the trap of believing that bigger is better.
Not so! Bigger may be better but only if you are able to handle bigger.
When it comes to elderly folks towards or at the end of their useful
sailing careers - Bruce in Bangkok comes to mind - the wisest decision
would be to take stock of yourself, your much reduced abilities and lack
of youthful vigor and then chose a boat you can actually still handle.
This means downsizing. This means simplicity.

There is many a well-found and seaworthy vessel in the 25-30 foot range
and the anchors for such a vessel are not such a great burden that they
must be handled with heavy, trouble-prone, mechanical and electrical
systems. Because with age often comes not only muscle and bone weakness
but weakness of mind, eyesight, and hearing. Consequently, the ability to
troubleshoot mechanical and electrical systems may be greatly reduced or
non-existent (as is the case with Bruce in Bangkok or it would seem so
from his embarrassingly simplistic mechanical and electrical posts).

Rather than compound folly by trying to maintain such a large vessel that
sailing becomes dangerous or burdensome and a menace to other shipping (as
is the case with one Skip Grundlach as well as the captain of the
erstwhile 'Red Cloud') it would be better for all concerned if such folks
sailed vessels that they could handle comfortably and so enjoy to a
greater extent and a longer time because of the reduced stress and wear
and tear on the failing old body.

Sometimes I think JimC has the right idea. For some people a Mac26X or M
might just be an ideal vessel. They are small, light can sail and motor
passably well and can even be trailored. They don't strain or stress their
crew. And, try as I might I've found it difficult to find a MacGregor
owner who was really dissatisfied with his small compromise vessel. Not
that I'd dare take a Mac26 on a long ocean voyage but I suppose a body
would probably be safer in one provided one knew how to sail her and
realized her limitations than in some old steel boat that was for her crew
too big, heavy, and ill-conceived and mechanically unsound to the point
where her own rudder punched holes in the transom. This would never happen
in a MacGregor. The rudders might break completely off without damaging
the hull but that would not be a disaster as the outboard motor could then
be pressed into service to do the steering.

But, I digress somewhat! The point is as you age and near the end of your
sailing career, think small. It will extend the days of bliss upon the
watery world. After all, isn't that what sailing's really all about.


Wilbur Hubbard


I guess a Coronado 26 would be fine if you only cruised mosquito infested
Florida swampland.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Strikes me as silly to size your boat to the mass of the maximum anchor
/ rode you can handle when reliable windlasses are easily available.

I recommend a different rant - that of sail size. Most people are
defeated more by sail handling than anchor handling. BTW, if you wish to
further rant on anchors, I suggest you rant on Fortress rather than
Danforth hi tensile as the Fortress are even lighter.

For those of you who wish information, a Danforth or Fortress is a fine
anchor in some conditions such as sand, but not nearly as good in oyster
or rock.

Personally, I see no issues with an electric windless (or capstan). I've
never heard of a boat being permanently anchored due to the windless
failing to weigh anchor. Have you?

-paul

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Paul Cassel wrote:
Personally, I see no issues with an electric windless (or capstan).

The worst case scenario that I can think of (and have no idea if it's
ever happened) is that the anchor failing to set and the crew unable
to pull it up for another try.


.... I've
never heard of a boat being permanently anchored due to the windless
failing to weigh anchor. Have you?


Are you going to ask "Wilbur Hubbard" to justify his irrational
dislikes & prejudices? What's next, asking him to rationalize his
behavior?

DSK

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

wrote in message
...
Paul Cassel wrote:
Personally, I see no issues with an electric windless (or capstan).

The worst case scenario that I can think of (and have no idea if it's
ever happened) is that the anchor failing to set and the crew unable
to pull it up for another try.


.... I've
never heard of a boat being permanently anchored due to the windless
failing to weigh anchor. Have you?


Are you going to ask "Wilbur Hubbard" to justify his irrational
dislikes & prejudices? What's next, asking him to rationalize his
behavior?

DSK


I'm trying to remember ever being on a boat that had a windlass that didn't
have the ability to use a winch handle and do it manually. I suppose they're
out there, but it seems like an inexpensive backup. And, even if it didn't I
suppose you could use the biggest winch you have. I just wouldn't use it for
breaking free.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Strikes me as silly to size your boat to the mass of the maximum anchor /
rode you can handle when reliable windlasses are easily available.

I recommend a different rant - that of sail size. Most people are defeated
more by sail handling than anchor handling. BTW, if you wish to further
rant on anchors, I suggest you rant on Fortress rather than Danforth hi
tensile as the Fortress are even lighter.

Sail size is also important. But, it is often stated by competent sailors
who write about such things that a man in good physical condition can hand
and/or reef individual sails up to 500 square feet each even in strong
winds. This size sail can be found on boats up to about forty feet LOA which
vessels require anchors in the 50-60 pound range to be held securely in a
storm.

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the vessel
and sized on the heavy end of the spectrum for added safety even when just
anchoring for lunch in seeming benign conditions. It is often truly stated
that it's not the water that usually damages or destroys boats but the hard
stuff around the water's edge and weather is fickle and unreliable so why
trust to luck?

But, let's examine the folly of large yachts for the elderly and those
others of diminished physical capacity. Large yachts do indeed, require
large heavy anchors. These then require large, heavy, high-amperage
windlasses, long lengths of heavy chain which in turn require a large heavy
battery bank, generator or heavy diesel with heavy alternator, heavy thick
wiring etc. All these things are failure-prone in the salt water
environment. And, when one has a large heavy generator and auxiliary one
usually has large heavy tankage and perhaps one or two large heavy
refrigerators/freezers and all sorts of other electrical systems all of
which require proper and constant maintenance. Is this how an elderly crew
of a too-large vessel wants to spend their majority of their time?

Or do they really wish to enjoy sailing in a more pure form. Small yachts
allow more sailing time for the buck. They allow more enjoyable sailing
because of the reduced physical effort required. In that regard they can be
said to be safer because time spent learning how to sail the vessel
competently is increased because maintenance and trouble-shooting time is
decreased. If you've been following the soap opera that is the Skip Gundlach
show you will know exactly what I'm talking about as the bulk of his time
seems to be spent as an aground (and sometimes water-borne) grease monkey,
electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc.

While some of you who are on the younger side of the spectrum find this
interesting and challenging, I would argue than elderly folks have been
there/done that and would rather be sailing than mucking around with grease
up their elbows squinting at things they can hardly see anymore and busting
their fragile skin and knuckles on sharp objects or straining their
skeletons and musculature attempting to squeeze into awkward positions or
lifting heavy objects.

On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions. If there is a stout current running which is the case in many
anchorages the damned things are worst than useless. They fly like a kite in
the current and likely will never grab bottom. People who are sold on
Fortress anchors are duffers who are obviously inexperienced lake and calm
water sailors. People like that certainly are NOT to be considered qualified
blue water sailors for their disregard for prudence and safety is readily
apparent.

For those of you who wish information, a Danforth or Fortress is a fine
anchor in some conditions such as sand, but not nearly as good in oyster
or rock.

One should carry a variety of anchors suited to a variety of bottom types.
That's quite obvious but each and every one should be of a size that a
crewman or woman can hand without mechanical/electrical assistance because
sooner or later systems will fail and the safety of the yacht compromised.
This means a smaller yacht is called for when smaller abilities are
contained therein. Light aluminum anchors have no place on a well-found
ocean going yacht. They are a joke, an illusion and a travesty. That they
continued to be sold is a commentary on how sailing has become just another
bastion of the sloppy and inept.


Personally, I see no issues with an electric windless (or capstan). I've
never heard of a boat being permanently anchored due to the windless
failing to weigh anchor. Have you?

Permanent, no! Delayed, yes oftentimes. Real sailors brook no delay based on
the frivolous or an imagined necessity that, in reality, is little more than
a ball and chain?

Wilbur Hubbard

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:08:09 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

One could run the rode back to the primary winches but I don't
think they would handle chain very well.

The sailing battleships had a hemp rode something like four inches in
diameter, They would attach a length of smaller stuff to the rode and
lead that to the capstan.

Casady

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

heavily snipped-Wilbur seems to think that older people are all decrepit
and unfit

On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every
real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions.

Wilbur got that right anyway. And Fortress anchors are not even solid. some
parts are held on with little screws!

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

heavily snipped-Wilbur seems to think that older people are all decrepit
and unfit

On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every
real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions.

Wilbur got that right anyway. And Fortress anchors are not even solid.
some parts are held on with little screws!



So what Neal is saying is... use an anchor appropriate to the bottom.
Duhhh... not exactly rocket science to figure that out.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

heavily snipped-Wilbur seems to think that older people are all decrepit
and unfit

Because they all ARE! It's a biological fact that the elderly are much
diminished from their mental and physical capacites they embodied in their
prime. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it IS something that should be
taken into consideration. To deny aging equates to diminished capacity is to
deny reality.


On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every
real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions.

Wilbur got that right anyway. And Fortress anchors are not even solid.
some parts are held on with little screws!

At least there still remains to you some common sense. When I stated that
Fortress anchors are a joke I meant every word of it.

An aluminum anchor is tantamount to a lead balloon! There exists a market
for such garbage only because of stupid, ignorant or crazy people.

Wilbur Hubbard

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Gogarty wrote:

My Lumar Concept 1 can let the anchor go in free fall so even if the windlass
fails one can anchor the boat. But you can't use a winch handle to bring it
back up. With a Delta 35 and all chain rode, we pray a lot that the windlass
does not fail. One could run the rode back to the primary winches but I don't
think they would handle chain very well.


The old square riggers used an endless line on the capstan that attached
to the anchor cable via "nippers".

Could be done that way with lines on the winch hooked to the chain?

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:42:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote this crap:

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the vessel

Wilbur Hubbard

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Bloody Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:42:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote this crap:

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels
get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the
spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the
vessel

Wilbur Hubbard

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

For your perusal:
Your thirty-five foot yacht, subject to where your are cruising, requires at
least a primary anchor of about 35 pounds and a secondary one of about the
same size. You may be able to get away with an aluminum anchor like the
Fortress or equivalent of about 18 pounds. Not mention the weight of the
chain you have a fair load to hoist. Compound this with a fresh wind when
you lift your anchor and you will not have to go to Body Plus (Gym) that
evening).
The other way is to use an undersize anchor and lifting become much easier
as well as dragging when the wind starts to freshen up. I never had a
windlass for decades with my previous boat using a 13 pounds Danford.
Now, with my new boat I carry three anchors, two of 35 pounds each and one
of 18 pounds. Having pulled my old Danford for decades I appreciate the
electric windlass. My windlass will not work unless the boat engine is on.
Should the windlass becomes not operational I can always return to my basic
training to pull the anchor or use one of the winches.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:51:23 -0300, wrote
this crap:

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.


For your perusal:
Your thirty-five foot yacht, subject to where your are cruising, requires at
least a primary anchor of about 35 pounds and a secondary one of about the

Yeah. So what?


same size. You may be able to get away with an aluminum anchor like the
Fortress or equivalent of about 18 pounds. Not mention the weight of the
chain you have a fair load to hoist. Compound this with a fresh wind when
you lift your anchor and you will not have to go to Body Plus (Gym) that
evening).


35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.





I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:


Sail size is also important. But, it is often stated by competent sailors
who write about such things that a man in good physical condition can hand
and/or reef individual sails up to 500 square feet each even in strong
winds. This size sail can be found on boats up to about forty feet LOA which
vessels require anchors in the 50-60 pound range to be held securely in a
storm.

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight.

My personal experience does not agree. My 42' boat has a displacement of
roughly 33,000 lbs. It has a mainsail area of roughly 450 feet. I have
no problems weighing anchor of 65 lbs with a reasonable lead of chain /
rope rode, but I do have a serious issue handling the mainsail in heavy
weather. Even with jiffy reefing, taking in a reef or furling the
mainsail for running bare is a major issue while anchoring has always
been rather simple.

I have never tried anchoring in, say, 15 fathoms with an all chain rode,
but then the mass of the anchor isn't really the issue as much as the
rode. So a 10 lb anchor with that rode would be as difficult as the 65
(pretty much) meaning a Mac 26 would be as much a problem as my Tayana
42. Thus, as I said, the limiting factor isn't boat size or anchor
weight but really, sail area.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:41:41 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:08:09 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

One could run the rode back to the primary winches but I don't
think they would handle chain very well.

The sailing battleships had a hemp rode something like four inches in
diameter, They would attach a length of smaller stuff to the rode and
lead that to the capstan.

Casady

They also had a crew of 400 men.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:51:23 -0300, wrote:


"Bloody Horvath" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:42:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote this crap:

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels
get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the
spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the
vessel

Wilbur Hubbard

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

For your perusal:
Your thirty-five foot yacht, subject to where your are cruising, requires at
least a primary anchor of about 35 pounds and a secondary one of about the
same size. You may be able to get away with an aluminum anchor like the
Fortress or equivalent of about 18 pounds. Not mention the weight of the
chain you have a fair load to hoist. Compound this with a fresh wind when
you lift your anchor and you will not have to go to Body Plus (Gym) that
evening).
The other way is to use an undersize anchor and lifting become much easier
as well as dragging when the wind starts to freshen up. I never had a
windlass for decades with my previous boat using a 13 pounds Danford.
Now, with my new boat I carry three anchors, two of 35 pounds each and one
of 18 pounds. Having pulled my old Danford for decades I appreciate the
electric windlass. My windlass will not work unless the boat engine is on.
Should the windlass becomes not operational I can always return to my basic
training to pull the anchor or use one of the winches.



I'll add a bit to that. You have, say a 40 pound of anchor, anchored
in say 30 feet of somewhat exposed water so you have a 5:1 scope out.
The wind is blowing onshore at say 7 MPH. You are single handed.

I guarantee that you will appreciate having a powered windlass!

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On 2008-04-14 13:27:55 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Because they all ARE! It's a biological fact that the elderly are much
diminished from their mental and physical capacites they embodied in their
prime. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it IS something that should be
taken into consideration. To deny aging equates to diminished capacity is to
deny reality.

But to assert that they are incapable is to deny reality as well.

It's not an either-or, but a "both" solution. My wife can't manhandle
systems on our boat the way I do. She needs winch handles, for
instance, and couldn't easily haul our current anchor and chain by
hand. She's a little girl and never had that sort of strength.

But she can handle a properly set-up 46' cat as easily as our pocket
cruiser once she learns the systems.

All it takes is adapting your systems and techniques to the available skills.

Sometimes the system needed *is* a smaller boat. We have a few people
on our docks who aren't old or particularly incapable, but don't go out
single-handed. They should have smaller boats. (Some got sailing dinks
for knocking around.)

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:46:54 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I have no
qualms about my Fortress standing up to the strains that sand, mud, or
gravel can put on it.

They're OK for certain conditions but I regard them as a special
purpose anchor. They will frequently not set in adverse conditions
such as:

- from a moving boat (anchor planes through water or skips along the
bottom).

- strong currents (see above).

- unfavorable bottom (hard, weedy, rocky, etc).

All danforth type anchors have a strong propensity for becoming fouled
in reversing tide or wind conditions. They excel however in high
holding power for their weight *if* properly set, and if the load
direction does not change more than a small amount.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:38:01 -0600, Paul Cassel
wrote:

Thus, as I said, the limiting factor isn't boat size or anchor
weight but really, sail area.

You need a better sail handling system. Do you have lazy jacks, dutch
men, and/or a stack pack system? I have seen one person easily handle
the mainsail on a 70 footer using all the above (and an electric
halyard winch).

It is also important to have your halyard and jiffy reefing lines run
back to the cockpit with stoppers and winches, halyard on one side,
jiffy reefing on the other.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On 2008-04-14 19:58:04 -0400, Bloody Horvath said:

35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.

Don't forget the chain. We are a size (or maybe two) big on 30' of
chain, so have an additional 30# to haul up. Mud can weigh a bit, too.

I just imagine most 5'2" 125# women trying to haul that by hand.

Yeah, we can lighten our anchor & chain, but would first get a
windlass, as we sleep better with what we have mounted.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008041422261877923-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-04-14 19:58:04 -0400, Bloody Horvath said:

35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.

Don't forget the chain. We are a size (or maybe two) big on 30' of chain,
so have an additional 30# to haul up. Mud can weigh a bit, too.

I just imagine most 5'2" 125# women trying to haul that by hand.

Yeah, we can lighten our anchor & chain, but would first get a windlass,
as we sleep better with what we have mounted.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Jere... he doesn't actually sail and he certainly has never had to deal with
an anchor/chain combo. 30 feet of chain ain't nuthin if you have a all-chain
rode.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:45:07 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

On 2008-04-14 13:27:55 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Because they all ARE! It's a biological fact that the elderly are much
diminished from their mental and physical capacites they embodied in their
prime. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it IS something that should be
taken into consideration. To deny aging equates to diminished capacity is to
deny reality.

But to assert that they are incapable is to deny reality as well.

It's not an either-or, but a "both" solution. My wife can't manhandle
systems on our boat the way I do. She needs winch handles, for
instance, and couldn't easily haul our current anchor and chain by
hand. She's a little girl and never had that sort of strength.

But she can handle a properly set-up 46' cat as easily as our pocket
cruiser once she learns the systems.

All it takes is adapting your systems and techniques to the available skills.

Sometimes the system needed *is* a smaller boat. We have a few people
on our docks who aren't old or particularly incapable, but don't go out
single-handed. They should have smaller boats. (Some got sailing dinks
for knocking around.)

Jere I know a couple sailing a 65 foot sloop. Just the two of them. He
is a retired scientist, I'd guess about 70, and she is a few years
younger. I met them in Phuket and they were on the way to the Med and
then back to the east Coast. No crew, just them.

The boat in the next slip to me is a fifty foot sloop and the couple
that own it sailed it from Seattle.

I knew a chap that was 80, he decided to go to America. Sailed north,
alone, to Japan and turned right. The last I heard from him he had
made Midway Island and the US Navy had a party for him.

Even square riggers with their large crews weren't adverse to making
things easier. There was a "patented" topsail that could be reefed in
two sections. The last of the cargo schooners carrying lumber from
Maine to New York sailed with amazingly small crews by using a
gasoline engine powered windlass to haul the lines.

I can probably go on but the point isn't age it is rigging the boat so
that YOU, or YOURS, can sail it. The much maligned Tristan Jones
sailed a boat with no legs at all.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:53:44 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008041422261877923-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-04-14 19:58:04 -0400, Bloody Horvath said:

35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.

Don't forget the chain. We are a size (or maybe two) big on 30' of chain,
so have an additional 30# to haul up. Mud can weigh a bit, too.

I just imagine most 5'2" 125# women trying to haul that by hand.

Yeah, we can lighten our anchor & chain, but would first get a windlass,
as we sleep better with what we have mounted.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Jere... he doesn't actually sail and he certainly has never had to deal with
an anchor/chain combo. 30 feet of chain ain't nuthin if you have a all-chain
rode.

Try 200 ft. of chain.......
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:29:25 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Try 200 ft. of chain.......

With a 120 lb anchor and a 100 lb mud ball. Even the windlass grunts.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:01:40 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:29:25 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Try 200 ft. of chain.......

With a 120 lb anchor and a 100 lb mud ball. Even the windlass grunts.

On my next boat I'm going to about 50 - 100 ft. of chain and a nylon
rode. Actually the rope is stronger then the chain and you don't have
to rig a snubber every night.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:08:51 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On my next boat I'm going to about 50 - 100 ft. of chain and a nylon
rode. Actually the rope is stronger then the chain and you don't have
to rig a snubber every night.

That will certainly work but all chain has its advantages also:

- less scope required for average conditions

- resulting smaller swing radius

- almost no chance of being cut by an errant prop on an other boat

Nylon also loses a great deal of its original strength when it is wet,
abraded, or as it ages. I regard rigging a snubber as an advantage
because it off-loads the bow pulpit and lowers the effective freeboard
height.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Gogarty" wrote in message
...
I agree with all of the above. I recall traying to anchor in ten feet of
water, a sand bottom and a strong current with a Fortress. Took 300 feet
of rode before it would bite. Our primary is a Delta 35. Never fails.
Backup is a Fortress 23 and also a lunch hook a Fortress 11. The 11 will
hold the boat very well if it sets.

Yes, of course it will. But to drop anchor and hold your breath to see if
it will set is no way to go even for a lunch hook

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:53:44 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008041422261877923-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-04-14 19:58:04 -0400, Bloody Horvath said:

35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.

Don't forget the chain. We are a size (or maybe two) big on 30' of
chain,
so have an additional 30# to haul up. Mud can weigh a bit, too.

I just imagine most 5'2" 125# women trying to haul that by hand.

Yeah, we can lighten our anchor & chain, but would first get a windlass,
as we sleep better with what we have mounted.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Jere... he doesn't actually sail and he certainly has never had to deal
with
an anchor/chain combo. 30 feet of chain ain't nuthin if you have a
all-chain
rode.

Try 200 ft. of chain.......
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


I always get my crew to do this so I don't have to try. LOL

We had a windlass die in the BVIs... pretty calm conditions, anchored in
about 15 ft. I'm glad I wasn't the one doing the hauling to get the anchor
up.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:08:51 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On my next boat I'm going to about 50 - 100 ft. of chain and a nylon
rode. Actually the rope is stronger then the chain and you don't have
to rig a snubber every night.

That will certainly work but all chain has its advantages also:

- less scope required for average conditions

- resulting smaller swing radius

- almost no chance of being cut by an errant prop on an other boat

Nylon also loses a great deal of its original strength when it is wet,
abraded, or as it ages. I regard rigging a snubber as an advantage
because it off-loads the bow pulpit and lowers the effective freeboard
height.



Certainly true... both of course have advantages/disadvantages. If you're
conscientious about checking your ground tackle (as with other vital pieces
of equipment), you're going to have more of the advantages and fewer of the
disadvantages.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:17:29 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

We had a windlass die in the BVIs... pretty calm conditions, anchored in
about 15 ft. I'm glad I wasn't the one doing the hauling to get the anchor
up.

It's important to have a contingency plan for dealing with windlass
failure. This is relatively easy on a sailboat, just bend another
piece of line onto your snubber and lead it aft to a primary winch,
using snatch blocks to get a fair lead.

On my trawler I carry a piece of gear called a "come along".

http://www.cvfsupplycompany.com/hanpowpulcom.html

I can rig the come along to a mid-ship cleat and pull about 20 feet of
chain, stop it off, get a new purchase, and pull another 20 feet.
It's slow going but it will work in an emergency. It's useful for
other things also, like hoisting 8D batteries out of inaccessible
locations.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:17:29 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

We had a windlass die in the BVIs... pretty calm conditions, anchored in
about 15 ft. I'm glad I wasn't the one doing the hauling to get the anchor
up.

It's important to have a contingency plan for dealing with windlass
failure. This is relatively easy on a sailboat, just bend another
piece of line onto your snubber and lead it aft to a primary winch,
using snatch blocks to get a fair lead.

On my trawler I carry a piece of gear called a "come along".

http://www.cvfsupplycompany.com/hanpowpulcom.html

I can rig the come along to a mid-ship cleat and pull about 20 feet of
chain, stop it off, get a new purchase, and pull another 20 feet.
It's slow going but it will work in an emergency. It's useful for
other things also, like hoisting 8D batteries out of inaccessible
locations.



Familiar with come-alongs... used to use them for gold-mining in the
Sierras. They work great for moving boulders, so a puny winch shouldn't be a
problem. Nice suggestion/method.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:24:27 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Familiar with come-alongs... used to use them for gold-mining in the
Sierras. They work great for moving boulders, so a puny winch shouldn't be a
problem. Nice suggestion/method.

Who would have guessed we had a former gold miner in our midst. :-)
I'm always amazed at the wide assortment of talent represented here.

I also carry a come along and a danforth anchor in my truck. The
anchor is very useful for off road 4 wheeling if you get stuck and
there is no convenient tree handy.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:24:27 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Familiar with come-alongs... used to use them for gold-mining in the
Sierras. They work great for moving boulders, so a puny winch shouldn't be
a
problem. Nice suggestion/method.

Who would have guessed we had a former gold miner in our midst. :-)
I'm always amazed at the wide assortment of talent represented here.

I also carry a come along and a danforth anchor in my truck. The
anchor is very useful for off road 4 wheeling if you get stuck and
there is no convenient tree handy.



It was an interesting time. I was using an 8-inch dredge powered by a 16
horse engine sitting on two pontoons. We would anchor it in the river. The
engine ran two hooka attachments, so you could have two people under water
at the same time. We had two people on the surface feeding the gasoline and
moving the tailings. It was quite an endeavor. Here's a link to pics of some
of what I found: http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW.com/GoldFromSierras

I also used to have a CJ-7 with a winch, but it was too wimpy to drag the
jeep sideways. We would usually just wait under the shade tree if really
stuck. Someone always came by eventually, and we had plenty of beer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:45:48 -0400, Gogarty
wrote this crap:

35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.

Well, goody for your sixteen year old nephew. I am sure my 21 year old
grandson would have no trouble either. He goes up the past like a monkey. But
I am somewhat older and shorter of breath than those guys are and I find a
Delta 35 with all chain rode to be a bit of chore by hand.


Wuss.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:38:01 -0600, Paul Cassel
wrote:

Thus, as I said, the limiting factor isn't boat size or anchor
weight but really, sail area.

You need a better sail handling system. Do you have lazy jacks, dutch
men, and/or a stack pack system? I have seen one person easily handle
the mainsail on a 70 footer using all the above (and an electric
halyard winch).

It is also important to have your halyard and jiffy reefing lines run
back to the cockpit with stoppers and winches, halyard on one side,
jiffy reefing on the other.


Jiffy reefing but it seems that in a real blow, I have a very hard time
of it. I've never had a hard time with my 65 lb anchor / chain / rope rode.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:41:41 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:08:09 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

One could run the rode back to the primary winches but I don't
think they would handle chain very well.
The sailing battleships had a hemp rode something like four inches in
diameter, They would attach a length of smaller stuff to the rode and
lead that to the capstan.

Casady

They also had a crew of 400 men.


Ah, you may want to do a recount on that one.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:06:18 -0600, Paul Cassel
wrote:

Jiffy reefing but it seems that in a real blow, I have a very hard time
of it.

It's important to ease off the mainsheet and boom vang until the
reefing lines are snugged down.

Does the mainsail stick in the luff groove or do the slides stick?

The really nice system that I saw on the 70 footer had full length
battens with a roller bearing car on the inboard end of each batten.
That sail dropped and stowed slicker than a venetian blind in reverse.

The answer ISN"T an electric or a bigger windlass
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:51:23 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...


On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:41:41 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:08:09 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

One could run the rode back to the primary winches but I don't
think they would handle chain very well.

The sailing battleships had a hemp rode something like four inches in
diameter, They would attach a length of smaller stuff to the rode and
lead that to the capstan.

Casady

They also had a crew of 400 men.

In a 100 ft. vessel.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


You said Battle ship.

I was wrong.

The HMS Victory, which was a First Rate ship of the Line, is 186 ft.
on the gun deck. Displaces 3,500 tones, has a draft of 28 feet.

The officers and crew comprised approximately 850 personal.

A broadside threw approximately 1,148 lbs. of iron.



Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)