On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:04:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
I absolutely have evidence that a dismasting will cause a capsize in
heavy
seas. Pulling a boat over is quite, quite different than being on the
ocean
in heavy seas. Is there some evidence you would like to present that
shows
this isn't true? Have you ever been in a boat rolling from side to side
in
ocean conditions? I have.-


Jim

Are you stating specifically that a sailing boat that loses its mast
is in more danger of capsizing then when the rig was in place?? I
would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this as it was always my
understanding that once the rig was either cut away or retrieved and
lashed on deck the boat rode no worse then it had with the rig in
place.

It was always my thought that once the rig was gone that stability of
the ballasted hull would become slightly better with no weight above
the deck line.

I emphasize that I have no interest in this discussion other then this
single point which is probably of interest to most cruising sailors.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


If it was bare poles, then no as far as absolute stability goes, but in
storm conditions, the generally accepted best method of survival is to heave
to, rather than lying ahull. This implies some sail up. Thus, some ability
to sail and greater stability while doing so. Even running before the storm,
you might be able to do that with bare poles, but I don't think you could do
it dismasted. You need something up to heave-to.

I apparently misunderstood the situation you were describing.

However discussing the ability of any boat to withstand the sea is a
highly subjective subject as in a serious storm any boat can be
overwhelmed.

Heaving to, for example is a good tactic... until the waves get high
enough that they are breaking and you may well be rolled. On the other
hand, running off is a good tactic until the waves become steep enough
that your drogues cannot slow you sufficiently and you bury the bow in
the trough of the wave and pitch pole.

Even in the Fastnet race there were vastly different experiences with
some boats overcome and others merely having a "spot of heavy weather"
as the British put it.

But all things considered I suspect that the hatchway and ports of a
lightly built boat wold be the weak points and the boat would probably
have serious problems not being swamped.


Despite Jim's rather bizarre assumptions about survivability in a Mac in
heavy seas, the discussion did get me thinking about rigging. Seems to me it
would not make the boat more stable than under bare poles due to weight
aloft and no sails for stability, but the rigging would resist or at least
dampen a 360 roll... probably just one time around.

If what I wrote was interpreted to imply that one would simply have bare
poles vs. being dismasted (as thought that would be much of a choice), it
was not my intention - I suppose Jim will be bitter, sorry for the political
pun -- I was always thinking that if I can put any kind of sail up, that'll
be an advantage, which is why they make storm sails.... heaving to, making
some progress vs. being at the mercy of whatever comes your way.

All this said, I can't imagine someone purposefully dismasting to improve
stability. Wow... great idea... a collapsible mast that you could just fold
up and stow. I think this would be perfect for the Mac enthusiast who wants
to go offshore. LOL

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
However discussing the ability of any boat to withstand the sea is a
highly subjective subject as in a serious storm any boat can be
overwhelmed.


And don't overlook or underestimate the knockdown. I've seen this
happen on small & medium sized
keelboats: the a heavy gust blows the boat over far enough to put the
boom in the water, at which point the keel has lost effectiveness as a
foil & the boat is being shoved sideways... putting increasing
pressure from water flow on the mainsail & boom, dragging the rig
under... boat inverts and may have a pretty strong tendency to stay
that way. No wave action necessary.


Heaving to, for example is a good tactic... until the waves get high
enough that they are breaking and you may well be rolled. On the other
hand, running off is a good tactic until the waves become steep enough
that your drogues cannot slow you sufficiently and you bury the bow in
the trough of the wave and pitch pole.


And if the drogue *does* slow you sufficiently, then you are being
pulled through a breaking crest and being hammered by truckloads of
water at 60+. There is no bulletproof "right answer."

Furthermore, the sea can be destructive beyond belief. I've seen one
of those V-shaped depression gales generate sea conditions that ripped
welded steel fittings off a US Navy vessel. IMHO there is *no*
cruising sailboat... or racer either, for that matter... which could
have survived those local conditions, no matter what her equipment or
tactics. The only answer is to be elsewhere when it gets that bad.

DSK

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
However discussing the ability of any boat to withstand the sea is a
highly subjective subject as in a serious storm any boat can be
overwhelmed.


And don't overlook or underestimate the knockdown. I've seen this
happen on small & medium sized
keelboats: the a heavy gust blows the boat over far enough to put the
boom in the water, at which point the keel has lost effectiveness as a
foil & the boat is being shoved sideways... putting increasing
pressure from water flow on the mainsail & boom, dragging the rig
under... boat inverts and may have a pretty strong tendency to stay
that way. No wave action necessary.


I had exactly this experience. Carrying a full main and 150% genoa
sailing along off a fairly long island in light air. We came to a cut,
or valley in the hills on the island and Wham the spreaders were in
the water.

As the boat heeled the rudder lost effectiveness and the boat rounded
up and nearly before I could realize what was happening we were
upright headed nearly into the wind.

Just to add insult to injury, after I got the boat moving (and the
pulse rate down) we proceeded along the coast still in light air.
Well, about 45 minutes later we came to another notch in the hills and
the same thing happened again.

So, in my limited experience, in a heavy displacement medium length
keel boat the ballast will pull the boat back upright with the mast
horizontal and at least some off the sails in the water.



Heaving to, for example is a good tactic... until the waves get high
enough that they are breaking and you may well be rolled. On the other
hand, running off is a good tactic until the waves become steep enough
that your drogues cannot slow you sufficiently and you bury the bow in
the trough of the wave and pitch pole.


And if the drogue *does* slow you sufficiently, then you are being
pulled through a breaking crest and being hammered by truckloads of
water at 60+. There is no bulletproof "right answer."

Furthermore, the sea can be destructive beyond belief. I've seen one
of those V-shaped depression gales generate sea conditions that ripped
welded steel fittings off a US Navy vessel. IMHO there is *no*
cruising sailboat... or racer either, for that matter... which could
have survived those local conditions, no matter what her equipment or
tactics. The only answer is to be elsewhere when it gets that bad.

DSK


You are correct - we take out life in out hands every time we go
sailing; ride in airplanes; drive a car. Hell! some people die
shoveling the snow off the driveway. Life is just a dangerous business
to be in.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
However discussing the ability of any boat to withstand the sea is a
highly subjective subject as in a serious storm any boat can be
overwhelmed.


And don't overlook or underestimate the knockdown. I've seen this
happen on small & medium sized
keelboats: the a heavy gust blows the boat over far enough to put the
boom in the water, at which point the keel has lost effectiveness as a
foil & the boat is being shoved sideways... putting increasing
pressure from water flow on the mainsail & boom, dragging the rig
under... boat inverts and may have a pretty strong tendency to stay
that way. No wave action necessary.


I had exactly this experience. Carrying a full main and 150% genoa
sailing along off a fairly long island in light air. We came to a cut,
or valley in the hills on the island and Wham the spreaders were in
the water.

As the boat heeled the rudder lost effectiveness and the boat rounded
up and nearly before I could realize what was happening we were
upright headed nearly into the wind.

Just to add insult to injury, after I got the boat moving (and the
pulse rate down) we proceeded along the coast still in light air.
Well, about 45 minutes later we came to another notch in the hills and
the same thing happened again.

So, in my limited experience, in a heavy displacement medium length
keel boat the ballast will pull the boat back upright with the mast
horizontal and at least some off the sails in the water.


I had an interesting experience with a Merit (25?) years ago. I was sailing
in the south bay, where there are occasional small tornado-like whirlwinds
coming from the marsh land. They're packing 40kts or so (total guess on my
part), but are very small. They are very unpredictable, as we found out. We
saw one quite a way off, and it was moving away from us. We were looking
elsewhere, when it basically knocked us down while we were close hauled. The
main touched the water before we could do anything, then the boat popped
right back and we continued sailing. Now that was a thrill ride.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:04:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
. ..
I absolutely have evidence that a dismasting will cause a capsize in
heavy
seas. Pulling a boat over is quite, quite different than being on the
ocean
in heavy seas. Is there some evidence you would like to present that
shows
this isn't true? Have you ever been in a boat rolling from side to
side
in
ocean conditions? I have.-


Jim

Are you stating specifically that a sailing boat that loses its mast
is in more danger of capsizing then when the rig was in place?? I
would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this as it was always my
understanding that once the rig was either cut away or retrieved and
lashed on deck the boat rode no worse then it had with the rig in
place.

It was always my thought that once the rig was gone that stability of
the ballasted hull would become slightly better with no weight above
the deck line.

I emphasize that I have no interest in this discussion other then this
single point which is probably of interest to most cruising sailors.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


If it was bare poles, then no as far as absolute stability goes, but in
storm conditions, the generally accepted best method of survival is to
heave
to, rather than lying ahull. This implies some sail up. Thus, some ability
to sail and greater stability while doing so. Even running before the
storm,
you might be able to do that with bare poles, but I don't think you could
do
it dismasted. You need something up to heave-to.

I apparently misunderstood the situation you were describing.

However discussing the ability of any boat to withstand the sea is a
highly subjective subject as in a serious storm any boat can be
overwhelmed.

Heaving to, for example is a good tactic... until the waves get high
enough that they are breaking and you may well be rolled. On the other
hand, running off is a good tactic until the waves become steep enough
that your drogues cannot slow you sufficiently and you bury the bow in
the trough of the wave and pitch pole.

Even in the Fastnet race there were vastly different experiences with
some boats overcome and others merely having a "spot of heavy weather"
as the British put it.

But all things considered I suspect that the hatchway and ports of a
lightly built boat wold be the weak points and the boat would probably
have serious problems not being swamped.


Despite Jim's rather bizarre assumptions about survivability in a Mac in
heavy seas, the discussion did get me thinking about rigging. Seems to me
it
would not make the boat more stable than under bare poles due to weight
aloft and no sails for stability, but the rigging would resist or at least
dampen a 360 roll... probably just one time around.

If what I wrote was interpreted to imply that one would simply have bare
poles vs. being dismasted (as thought that would be much of a choice), it
was not my intention - I suppose Jim will be bitter, sorry for the
political
pun -- I was always thinking that if I can put any kind of sail up,
that'll
be an advantage, which is why they make storm sails.... heaving to, making
some progress vs. being at the mercy of whatever comes your way.

All this said, I can't imagine someone purposefully dismasting to improve
stability. Wow... great idea... a collapsible mast that you could just
fold
up and stow. I think this would be perfect for the Mac enthusiast who
wants
to go offshore. LOL

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


Bruce, thanks for turning this into a "real" discussion vs. my rant
(according to Jim) against Macs. You're destroying people's expections about
the lack of quality of a.s.a.

Seriously though... sure, there are going to be times when, as Doug and
others have said, it's best to not be there... nothing is for sure.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com