On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:26:38 -0400, Marty wrote:

Thomas, Spring Point Light wrote:




Didn't I see that the Red Cloud was recovered? Beat up but floating?


Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

OzOne wrote:
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.


Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the same
post twice? My cognitive functions are perfectly up to par. Perhaps
your memory functions are failing. Besides, it's plain decent netequette
to snip and post only what's relevant to ones reply.

Cheers
Marty

Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the
same
post twice?


WOW!!! You must be exhausted!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:25:37 -0400, Marty wrote:

OzOne wrote:
Some reason you had to quote the whole piece of bull**** for a one line
response?

Cheers
Marty

Don't go to sea Marty....Your mind is too closed.


Say what? Just because I can't see why I should scroll through the same
post twice? My cognitive functions are perfectly up to par. Perhaps
your memory functions are failing. Besides, it's plain decent netequette
to snip and post only what's relevant to ones reply.

Cheers
Marty

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.

Cheers
Marty

On Apr 8, 9:34 pm, Marty wrote:
OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.





Now THERE'S some pressure!!!!



The Better Captain
35s5
NY

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:34:42 -0400, Marty wrote:

OzOne wrote:

"Bull****"

Your word not mine!

True, so now you are climbing on Neal's bandwagon. I thought better of
you OZ.

Cheers
Marty

I'd suggest you look back thru the archives.
I some misgivings regarding the actions leading to the loss of Red
Cloud.
It appeared to me as it has to Neal and others that there were some
serious omissions and dubious decisions prior to and during the
voyage.




OzOne of the three twins

I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.

My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

All's well that ends safe. Hope the next boat comes soon.

"PrefersOffshore" wrote in message
...
My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

All's well that ends safe. Hope the next boat comes soon.



I think Joe would be the first to admit that he did a couple of things wrong
and would do them differently or have different equipment or had made other
adjustments or additions to his boat and crew.

Some of the reasons for the outcome, although I can't know directly, might
have been lack of funds for getting the boat truly ready, pushing the
sailing window (which I believe Joe admitted to), and not having a planned
"out" in case of the worst case. All of that said, few have unlimited
resources, unlimited time, and omniscient knowledge. At some point, you have
to just go, and as the comedian says, get 'er done.

My guess is that very few of the people who've posted here have truly been
offshore anything like what Joe and company did.

My longest non-stop for example was a little over 1000 NM (downhill from SF
to Cabo). The weather was picture perfect after the first couple of days of
slogging into the westerly to 30+ knot wind and 10-12 ft. seas for 100 NM or
so. When we turned left, we were on a broad reach, starboard for just about
the entire voyage, with gentle but huge swells, minimal waves, and 15 or so
air. The only rain we encountered was the last night for about an hour.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"PrefersOffshore" wrote in message
...
My post of January 20, 2008, copy of which follows, received no reply
from Joe. The questions asked are what I consider to be some of the
basics of sailing offshore. Thankfully Joe and crew are still around,
and I am in hopes they'll be able to venture out again sometime.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe

I saw the video of the rescue a few weeks ago. My condolences on your
loss. Glad the 3 of you are all still with us.

A couple questions and comments. Did you not have storm tri and storm
jib? If so, did you not use them. Why?

Probably not!

Were either or both of your crew capable of proper helmsmanship for
you to safely tend to the sail plan on deck? Were jacklines strung
fore 'n aft?

I would guess the answer to that would be affirmative on the helm but no on
the jacklines.


Why keep the windage aloft with the large ensign? Was the mizzen
reefed?

Ignorance or a stuck halyard? And no, not prior to the rescue at least. One
can consult the videos. It looks like it was reefed and the mainsail removed
when the vessel was abandoned. Why not get the sails right prior to
abandoning the vessel?


40 ft seas are remarkably heavy - as are 30 foot seas, for that
matter. About 500 nm N of Puerto Rico with a strong depression laying
to our north, we experienced 20 to 25 foot and 8 to 10 groundswell for
3 days with 50 KTS sustained on the nose. We found ourselves in a
pretty deep hole at times - enough to starve the sails. I suppose
they could have been called 35, but it's no where near the same.
Estimating the size is difficult when you're in it. Whenever they're
over 15 to 18, I study them pretty long and hard to come up with a
true and proper observation of wave height.

You can see from the videos of the rescue that the seas were lucky if they
were 20 feet tall. Most were more like fifteen but they WERE short and
steep. Check out the video he
http://www.khou.com/news/local/galve...e.6a6a4f6.html
And note how in the text of the report it says after the rescue the
helicopter landed and refueled on a nearby oil platform. (That would be the
Noble Clyde Boudreaux which is the only one in that area.) It also said that
the helicopter stayed there for an hour until the wind died. Hmmmmm!

It's easy to fall into the macho thing when you're back ashore. But,
more importantly, when you're in the thick of it, if your judgment is
poor in knowing how ill you really lay, you may make some critical and
irreversible mistakes by overreacting. Of course - pilot in command,
and my not being there fully understood - there would have been a
somewhat lengthy period before drogue deployment that I'd have been
hove to or making way under storm jib and tri, running with warps, and
if sea room or speed made our situation truly desperate, then the
drogue with storm tri.

I advised the captain many times on the newsgroups that running before it
was the best option given the inadequacies of a big square pilot house and
large flat windows. There was about a week of searoom to do so. He didn't
bother listening. He came up with some lame excuse that the whole area to
his lee was dotted with oil rigs. A lie. The Noble Clyde Boudreaux was the
ONLY oil rig that far offshore. Given the NW wind slowly veering to the
North there was nothing in his lee but unobstructed deep water. Cold fronts
in the Gulf are imminently predicatable. The wind begins to blow from the
west and strengthens. Then it quickly veers to the NW and rapidly increases
withing the space of minutes with the passing of the frontal boundary
usually accompanied by a line of threatening black clouds and some rain
squals. Then it blows hard for maybe 12-18 hours with clearing skys and
dropping temperatures.while slowly veering to the North and then NE while
diminishing in intensity. During the worst of it one should heave-to if one
has a suitable yacht or run before it to effective lengthen the wavelength
so as not to take a pounding by trying to take them head on as was the case
in the video. It's as if they didn't even know the basics of storm sailing.
As if they never even read a book about it let alone had any experience at
it. Something is very fishy about the entire episode.

Personally, I would not find myself offshore without a proper sail
inventory. It's important and fitting that you had the raft, but in
the progression of going from fair weather to foul, which often comes
all too quickly, storm sails are every bit as important for the safety
of ship and crew.

You are so correct.

OTOH, you now have experience assisting your crew into the Coast Guard
basket. Three point shot from 300 miles out! Few sailors could make
that claim.

Dubious!



Wilbur Hubbard