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300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Canada's first ever hydrogen fuel cell sailboat has been unveiled to
the world, a completely green sailing machine that completed its first successful voyage late this summer. The prototype's creator, Jim Harrington, equipped the sailboat with a 300-watt Horizon fuel cell system with the hydrogen supplied by NRC in Vancouver and the only by-products of the operating fuel cell being heat and water. "This is history being made. It is that significant," commented Harrington. Noting that Canadians are on the brink of a hydrogen revolution, Harrington said, "Every so often in history, there's a convergence of where technology and the supply of parts necessary to start a new age occurs." Harrington's early calculations suggested the sailboat could reach 6 knots under fuel cell power, but his tests revealed a top speed of just 1.5 knots. Future tests will incorporate larger fuel cells. Harrington is working with iGreen Technologies to develop more fuel cell technology products and it is thought that one of their plans is to put together fuel cell kits priced at $4,500. |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Joe wrote in news:1190122674.465569.282800
@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: Harrington's early calculations suggested the sailboat could reach 6 knots under fuel cell power, but his tests revealed a top speed of just 1.5 knots. Future tests will incorporate larger fuel cells. Just like cars....there's no place to STORE super-high-pressure hydrogen gas bottles that weigh too much, is there? If you took out the diesel fuel tank from your sailboat, the little one that runs the diesel, and replaced it with hydrogen cylinders, how far would it travel on gas stored in the same space? Will it go 20 miles? at 1.5 knots that's over 13 hours. Will it produce full power for 13 hours on cylinders that take the same space as the diesel tank in a sailboat? No, it won't, and never will, no matter how greenie feeley good it is. Then there's this other problem: http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/n...92h2future.asp "At $4/gallon for gasoline, hydrogen’s break-even cost is $8/kg." "Renewably produced hydrogen and oxygen would be cost competitive with gasoline at about $6 per gallon." http://local.google.com/answers/threadview?id=704915 "The price of hydrogen gas in steel cylinders costs about $100/kg." At $100/kg, you could run a sailboat 1.5 knots for about the same price as buying diesel for a SHIP! The ship has bigger heads and lot more creature comforts. Can you say "crazy" without laughing? Larry -- Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium" The ultimate dirty bomb...... |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:37:54 -0700, Joe
wrote: The prototype's creator, Jim Harrington, equipped the sailboat with a 300-watt Horizon fuel cell system with the hydrogen supplied by NRC in Vancouver and the only by-products of the operating fuel cell being heat and water. 300 watts is less than 1/2 hp. No wonder they didn't reach their goal of 6.5 kts. They need at least 20x more power, and then there is the hydrogen generation or storage problem to be solved. |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
"Larry" wrote in message ... Joe wrote in news:1190122674.465569.282800 At $100/kg, you could run a sailboat 1.5 knots for about the same price as buying diesel for a SHIP! put your sails up and you can do 5kts all day for FREE! Scotty |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Scotty wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message ... Joe wrote in news:1190122674.465569.282800 At $100/kg, you could run a sailboat 1.5 knots for about the same price as buying diesel for a SHIP! put your sails up and you can do 5kts all day for FREE! Scotty If there's wind, but I doubt you ever have the lack of on your boat...toot toot... |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Larry wrote:
Just like cars....there's no place to STORE super-high-pressure hydrogen gas bottles that weigh too much, is there? If you took out the diesel fuel tank from your sailboat, the little one that runs the diesel, and replaced it with hydrogen cylinders, how far would it travel on gas stored in the same space? Will it go 20 miles? at 1.5 knots that's over 13 hours. Will it produce full power for 13 hours on cylinders that take the same space as the diesel tank in a sailboat? No, it won't, and never will, no matter how greenie feeley good it is. Then there's this other problem: http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/n...92h2future.asp "At $4/gallon for gasoline, hydrogen’s break-even cost is $8/kg." "Renewably produced hydrogen and oxygen would be cost competitive with gasoline at about $6 per gallon." http://local.google.com/answers/threadview?id=704915 "The price of hydrogen gas in steel cylinders costs about $100/kg." At $100/kg, you could run a sailboat 1.5 knots for about the same price as buying diesel for a SHIP! The ship has bigger heads and lot more creature comforts. Can you say "crazy" without laughing? Larry No - it was jut to get attention of the news media. 15 minutes of fame sysdrome. Richard |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
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300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
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300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
"Wayne.B" wrote
and then there is the hydrogen generation or storage problem to be solved. Couple or three years ago, I read an article about a fuel cell powered Duffy launch with an experimental system that produced hydrogen from seawater as needed, through some kind of chemical process. I wonder what became of that? |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Ernest Scribbler brought forth on stone tablets:
"Wayne.B" wrote and then there is the hydrogen generation or storage problem to be solved. Couple or three years ago, I read an article about a fuel cell powered Duffy launch with an experimental system that produced hydrogen from seawater as needed, through some kind of chemical process. I wonder what became of that? Ran out of fuel? Seriously, if a chemical has to be carried onboard and is transformed thru some process (perhaps even using seawater) to produce the hydrogen to be consumed in the fuel cell, then what is that chemical, other than a fuel? Some examples of such a fuel come to mind: sodium, potassium, calcium. As with anything associated with the "hydrogen economy", spend some time researching how these substances are produced. bob s/v Eolian Seattle |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
"RW Salnick" wrote
Seriously, if a chemical has to be carried onboard and is transformed thru some process (perhaps even using seawater) to produce the hydrogen to be consumed in the fuel cell, then what is that chemical, other than a fuel? A catalyst. As with anything associated with the "hydrogen economy", spend some time researching how these substances are produced. Never said I thought it was a magical miracle cure. Just asked whatever became of it. |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Ernest Scribbler wrote:
"RW Salnick" wrote Seriously, if a chemical has to be carried onboard and is transformed thru some process (perhaps even using seawater) to produce the hydrogen to be consumed in the fuel cell, then what is that chemical, other than a fuel? A catalyst. As with anything associated with the "hydrogen economy", spend some time researching how these substances are produced. Never said I thought it was a magical miracle cure. Just asked whatever became of it. Try this one. Very interesting, but no data on the input power budget. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1 |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
cavelamb himself brought forth on stone tablets:
Ernest Scribbler wrote: "RW Salnick" wrote Seriously, if a chemical has to be carried onboard and is transformed thru some process (perhaps even using seawater) to produce the hydrogen to be consumed in the fuel cell, then what is that chemical, other than a fuel? A catalyst. As with anything associated with the "hydrogen economy", spend some time researching how these substances are produced. Never said I thought it was a magical miracle cure. Just asked whatever became of it. Try this one. Very interesting, but no data on the input power budget. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1 This has already been discussed at length in alt.energy.homepower. I am confused... is the catalyst comment yours, cavelamb? Regardless, the following is directed at the respondant who thought that a catalyst could take the place of an energy input... This is going to take a minute to set up - please stay with me here... We are going to substitute gravitational potential energy for chemical energy in this analogy. Imagine that you are standing in Denver, looking west at the Front Range. Please imagine further, that behind the ramparts of the Front Range is a valley at say 8500 feet (Vail?). Now the tops of those mountains in the Front Range are from 11,000 to 14,000 feet, and you are at 5200' in Denver. Your position in Denver represents water - dihydrogen monoxide. It is the low-energy position - the state things want to be in. To get yourself to Vail (to break apart the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen), you need to supply energy. In this initial example, you need to supply enough energy to crest over the Front Range. You will get a little of it back, coasting down the west slope of the Front Range into the valley, but since the valley elevation is still above Denver, you still have to supply energy to reach this higher energy state. If you decide to head back to Denver, you first have to supply energy to get up the west slope, but then you get that energy plus all the energy it took to reach the valley flor elevation back (you just burned the hydrogen). Now imagine you drilled a tunnel thru the Front Range at the valley floor elevation (the Eisenhower tunnel). Going to or from the valley doesn't involve any difference in the net energy change between the end states, but you no longer have to go over the whole front range. The tunnel is the catalyst. It lowers the energy "entry price" for the trip. But: there is no possible way to drill the tunnel so that you can travel from Denver at 5200 feet to the valley floor at 8500 feet without having to climb at least 3300 feet. The tunnel (catalyst) doesn't change the net energy produced or consumed by the trip (reaction), it just makes it easier to get started. That clean burning hydrogen (2 H2 + O2 - 2 H2O) releases *in theory* exactly the same amount of energy that it took to break apart the water to liberate the hydrogen in the first place. *In practice*, it takes substantially more energy to break apart water than is released by the combustion. The challenge to the "hydrogen economy" folks is to explain why if you have the energy to liberate the hydrogen in the first place, why not just use that energy directly, instead of throwing away part of it in making hydrogen. bob s/v Eolian Seattle |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
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300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
"RW Salnick" wrote
The challenge to the "hydrogen economy" folks is to explain why if you have the energy to liberate the hydrogen in the first place, why not just use that energy directly, instead of throwing away part of it in making hydrogen. **** if I know, Bob, maybe for the same reasons that if you had the energy to poke a hole in the ground, pump oil out of it, transport it to the coast, load it on a boat, take it halfway around the world, process it in a refinery, distribute it to retailers, and so forth, you'd "throw away" all that just to gas up the old suburbedition and drive around with your buddy Sancho imagining that somebody in some usenet group has suggested that technology exists to make hydrogen power economically feasible when he hasn't done any such thing. But that's not important right now, because all I asked is what, if anything, ever became of this: http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/boattests/0104duffy/ |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:38:43 +0000, Larry wrote:
Joe wrote in news:1190122674.465569.282800 : Harrington's early calculations suggested the sailboat could reach 6 knots under fuel cell power, but his tests revealed a top speed of just 1.5 knots. Future tests will incorporate larger fuel cells. Just like cars....there's no place to STORE super-high-pressure hydrogen gas bottles that weigh too much, is there? If you took out the diesel fuel tank from your sailboat, the little one that runs the diesel, and replaced it with hydrogen cylinders, how far would it travel on gas stored in the same space? Will it go 20 miles? at 1.5 knots that's over 13 hours. Will it produce full power for 13 hours on cylinders that take the same space as the diesel tank in a sailboat? No, it won't, and never will, no matter how greenie feeley good it is. Then there's this other problem: http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/n...92h2future.asp "At $4/gallon for gasoline, hydrogen’s break-even cost is $8/kg." "Renewably produced hydrogen and oxygen would be cost competitive with gasoline at about $6 per gallon." http://local.google.com/answers/threadview?id=704915 "The price of hydrogen gas in steel cylinders costs about $100/kg." At $100/kg, you could run a sailboat 1.5 knots for about the same price as buying diesel for a SHIP! The ship has bigger heads and lot more creature comforts. Can you say "crazy" without laughing? Larry If I remember, Mercedes actually built a hydrogen powered car some 20 or 30 years ago. From what I read the engine functioned pretty well but the storage of high pressure hydrogen proved to be an unsurmountable problem. Apparently hydrogen being the lightest molecule will leak right through most metal tanks. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message . .. "RW Salnick" wrote The challenge to the "hydrogen economy" folks is to explain why if you have the energy to liberate the hydrogen in the first place, why not just use that energy directly, instead of throwing away part of it in making hydrogen. **** if I know, Bob, maybe for the same reasons that if you had the energy to poke a hole in the ground, pump oil out of it, transport it to the coast, load it on a boat, take it halfway around the world, process it in a refinery, distribute it to retailers, and so forth, you'd "throw away" all that just to gas up the old suburbedition and drive around with your buddy Sancho imagining that somebody in some usenet group has suggested that technology exists to make hydrogen power economically feasible when he hasn't done any such thing. But that's not important right now, because all I asked is what, if anything, ever became of this: http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/boattests/0104duffy/ check this out: http://www.millenniumcell.com/fw/mai...&reqid=1040161 |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Copied from th discussion...
But sounds like a good starting point. On June 28, 2007, Ted Green Theodore.A.Green {at} l-3com.com wrote: To get right to the point, I believe the Kanzius effect is caused by the polarization of the hydrogen molecules in the water. This polarization causes the two atoms of hydrogen to lose their 105 degree orientation to each other and de-stabilize the water molecule. The unstable water molecule comes apart easily then, combining hydrogen to hydrogen and oxygen to oxygen in a magnetic bond. Because the water molecules’ special property to hold sodium is lost, some sodium atoms must also be released to react violently with the water still present. This ignites hydrogen which recombines with the oxygen to keep the wick from being consumed. The unusual properties of the HHO gas, catalyzes the whole process to a very high efficiency. |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
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300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
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300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
cavelamb himself wrote in news:13f043vphq93t16
@corp.supernews.com: 300 watts? My daughter's stereo uses more power than that. Only when you're on the phone.....(sigh) Larry -- |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
cavelamb himself wrote in
: No more so than a nuclear powered house. Not so! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiois...tric_generator Russians have been running remote navaids with RTGs for decades. Amazing power source used in lots of space programs, as you can see. The half life of this generator is 87 years, so you only have to buy ONE to run as many boats as you'll own in your lifetime, passing the RTG on to your kids to run their boats from. "238Pu (the best of these three) needs less than 2.5 mm, and in many cases no shielding is needed in a 238Pu RTG, as the casing itself is adequate. 238Pu has become the most widely used fuel for RTGs, in the form of plutonium(IV) oxide (PuO2). 238Pu has a half-life of 87.7 years, reasonable energy density and exceptionally low gamma and neutron radiation levels." Voyager 1 has been running from its RTG, nearly faultlessly, since the 1960's! It's power output has dropped, markedly, requiring a lot of its science to be shut down or cycled, now. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2004/RP/RPT-shah.html Your permanent 110 watt SRG is ready....sun not necessary, 24/7/365/87 power... Larry -- Of course, we'll use scare tactics that rival 9/11 to prevent you from ever owning a car that never needs fueling....which would, of course, starve many of the elite class out of their mansions. |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:18:55 -0700, RW Salnick
wrote: As with anything associated with the "hydrogen economy", spend some time researching how these substances are produced. I believe most hydrogen is made from natural gas or by electrolysis. Be easier to make methanol, from natural gas, and use that for liquid motor fuel. My car runs on methanol. Lot lighter than compressed hydrogen or natural gas, once you include the weight of the tanks. Casady |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:35:51 +0000, Larry wrote:
Apparently hydrogen being the lightest molecule will leak right through most metal tanks. Hmm...great point, Bruce! I suppose it's the same as the lighest elements of gasoline leaking right through those cheapassed polyethelene gas tanks they put in expensive boats...leaving the shellac behind. Bruce was almost right. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule and it leaks through normal joints like a sieve. Helium being the next smallest is commonly used for leak testing high vacuum equipment as a result. With the proper detection apparatus you could leak test with hydrogen but it has an unfortunate tendency to release energy in a rather violent kind of way. |
300 watts and only 1.5 knots ~ A Canada revolution
Wayne.B wrote in
: it has an unfortunate tendency to release energy in a rather violent kind of way. Especially in the presence of very high energy neutrons....(c; Larry -- Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium" The ultimate dirty bomb...... |
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