* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/19/2007 9:25 PM:

Thanks but the bottom line is the stability curve. That says it all as
far as I'm concerned.

In other words, you've made up your mind to ignore the reality of the
situation.

Cruising cats have stability curves similar to
racing cats at the top of the curve where it says, "oh oh, turn turtle
because there's no going back." Since they are heavier, the bottom of
the curve looks a little better but that's spurious information because
it's at the top where the problem arises.

There is no doubt that there is a similarity. The issue, however, is
that magnitude of the wind/wave required to capsize, the frequency of
this happening, and the record of survival when it does occur.

Anybody who claims cruising
cats have an impeccable record are not familiar with the facts.

I've never claimed the record is "impeccable," only that its hard to
find cases where a modern cruising cat has capsized while cruising, as
opposed to racing or delivery. And please show us your "facts," not
just fabricated nonsense.

People
have died when their cruising cats have turned turtle. People will
continue to die.

Very, very few. You still haven't provided a single case, although I
know of a few. And since its trivial to find cases where monohulls
have disappeared without a trace, its not clear what your point is.

The various manufacturers have an aggressive plan to
cover up any incidents of capsize.

Ah! So its a conspiracy! Next you'll claim the Martians are
abducting catamaran sailers!

They'd rather people weren't aware of
the fact that they are selling a dangerous product.

And they must have fooled the insurance companies too, because the
rates for a cat aren't any higher than for a monohull.

A product of dubious
worth when it comes to ocean voyaging where sometimes one just cannot
avoid a survival storm.

Unlike the large number of monohulls that would politely disappear
during any storm that would capsize a cruising cat. And since you
never leave sight of land, why the great interest in ocean voyaging?

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:56:50 -0400, Jeff wrote:

any storm that would capsize a cruising cat.

Perhaps you are underestimating to ability of a fool to do the wrong
thing at the wrong time. All the big ships will capsize, and not come
back. The self righting vessels are actually rare. During a wartime
crossing the Queen Mary came within a degree or so of going over. Wave
took out the wheelhouse windows, ninety feet above sea level. Nothing
except a submarine is immune to big waves. Of course, those things
routinely recover from sinking. I heard that ten thousand shipping
containers are lost, during storms, every year. Hit one of those with
many small craft, and you may not be concerned with capsizing.

Casady

* Richard Casady wrote, On 8/20/2007 9:09 AM:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:56:50 -0400, Jeff wrote:

any storm that would capsize a cruising cat.

Perhaps you are underestimating to ability of a fool to do the wrong
thing at the wrong time. All the big ships will capsize, and not come
back.

Do you have a point? Are you claiming that in the history of the
world, no ship has ever survived a voyage? Of course not. The issue
is not one of possibilities, its one of probabilities.

I've never claimed its impossible to flip a cat; I've only claimed it
doesn't happen that often. And when it does, it usually turns out to
be human error, in the form of carrying way too much sail. Moreover,
the loss of life is generally low.

The self righting vessels are actually rare. During a wartime
crossing the Queen Mary came within a degree or so of going over. Wave
took out the wheelhouse windows, ninety feet above sea level. Nothing
except a submarine is immune to big waves. Of course, those things
routinely recover from sinking. I heard that ten thousand shipping
containers are lost, during storms, every year. Hit one of those with
many small craft, and you may not be concerned with capsizing.

This is another risk where cats have a large advantage - there are
numerous cases of cats surviving major damage that would sink a
monohull in minutes.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:59:15 -0400, Jeff wrote:


Perhaps you are underestimating to ability of a fool to do the wrong
thing at the wrong time. All the big ships will capsize, and not come
back.

Do you have a point?

There actually are two, the really obvious ones.

it usually turns out to be human error,

See above, about fools. Then there are good sailors who rarely make
mistakes. Sometimes one is all it takes There was the guy on the
messdeck of a big ship, in a bad storm. He opened the backing plate on
a porthole, was so horrified by what he saw that he failed to properly
secure the port. and about fifteen tons of water entered. The water
got to the engine room, drowned lots of electrics and the ship
evertually sank when it lost all engine power.

The self righting vessels are actually rare. During a wartime
crossing the Queen Mary came within a degree or so of going over. Wave
took out the wheelhouse windows, ninety feet above sea level. Nothing
except a submarine is immune to big waves. Of course, those things
routinely recover from sinking. I heard that ten thousand shipping
containers are lost, during storms, every year. Hit one of those with
many small craft, and you may not be concerned with capsizing.

This is another risk where cats have a large advantage - there are
numerous cases of cats surviving major damage that would sink a
monohull in minute

Some favor a watertight bulkhead forward on monohulls, with cargo
containers in mind. Those things can even mess up a screw on a big
ship.

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...


Some favor a watertight bulkhead forward on monohulls, with cargo
containers in mind. Those things can even mess up a screw on a big
ship.


It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they
will sink if they go aglub.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
news

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...


Some favor a watertight bulkhead forward on monohulls, with cargo
containers in mind. Those things can even mess up a screw on a big
ship.


It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that
they will sink if they go aglub.

And I think for every container that is lost overboard the captain of
the ship should be held responsible and fined 1000 dollars. I bet that
would put a stop to it. Why is it over in China or Japan the top guy has
the blame placed on him and gets shot or has to commit suicide when he
screws up royally but in the good ole USA the top guy, no matter how
badly he screws up, always manages to blame it on an underling who then
takes the fall?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:49:24 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they
will sink if they go aglub.

They will unless full of low density water resistant cargo. The doors
on the boxes are not watertight. Electronics, with all that foam, just
won't sink. CRT's are bouyant. So is wood. Depends entirely on the
cargo. With the right cargo a boxboat is basically unsinkable.
Read the empty weight stenciled on one that I spotted on I-80.
Something over 8000 lbs. and they would weigh over 40 tons if full of
water. That is way too heavy for a boxboat, some of those carry 8 000
containers. Those ships will not carry 300 000 tons. that is
ridiculous, so the boxes have to weigh much less. They mostly start
out very bouyant, but they are not watertight, like I said .Even so
they can't be guaranteed to sink. They will take quite a while to,
however. even if they do, eventually. A container washed off a ship
and spilled a cargo of bathtub ducks. Scientists collected data on
currents for years. Had it not come open, it would not have sunk until
it dissolved into rust.
There are the floating oil drums as well.

Casady

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:42:06 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:49:24 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they
will sink if they go aglub.

They will unless full of low density water resistant cargo. The doors
on the boxes are not watertight. Electronics, with all that foam, just
won't sink. CRT's are bouyant. So is wood. Depends entirely on the
cargo. With the right cargo a boxboat is basically unsinkable.
Read the empty weight stenciled on one that I spotted on I-80.
Something over 8000 lbs. and they would weigh over 40 tons if full of
water. That is way too heavy for a boxboat, some of those carry 8 000
containers. Those ships will not carry 300 000 tons. that is
ridiculous, so the boxes have to weigh much less. They mostly start
out very bouyant, but they are not watertight, like I said .Even so
they can't be guaranteed to sink. They will take quite a while to,
however. even if they do, eventually. A container washed off a ship
and spilled a cargo of bathtub ducks. Scientists collected data on
currents for years. Had it not come open, it would not have sunk until
it dissolved into rust.
There are the floating oil drums as well.

Casady

Actually container ships are rated in 20 ft equivalent containers, but
you are correct any container loaded with dense goods - machinery -
goes straight to the bottom.

In fact given that a single port - The Port of Los Angeles handles in
the neighborhood of 8.5 million containers a year and insurance
companies reckon that between 2,000 to 10,000 containers are lost per
year the numbers of TEU's lost vis-a-vis the total units in transit at
any given time is infinitesimal.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)