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#51
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Catamarans have something extra....
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:55:35 -0000, "
wrote: Why put up with a boat that has a designed-in flaw of being more stable upside-down than rightside-up? All big ships are that way. None of them ever came back from a capsize. I take that back, some submarines are big ships, and they are self righting. Of course, they prefer to be submerged under extreme conditions. WWII German subs used to get totally submerged by waves, when on the surface. Lookouts had to hold their breath for a good thirty seconds. The diesels continued to run, and ears would hurt. Casady |
#52
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Catamarans have something extra....
* Richard Casady wrote, On 8/20/2007 9:09 AM:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:56:50 -0400, Jeff wrote: any storm that would capsize a cruising cat. Perhaps you are underestimating to ability of a fool to do the wrong thing at the wrong time. All the big ships will capsize, and not come back. Do you have a point? Are you claiming that in the history of the world, no ship has ever survived a voyage? Of course not. The issue is not one of possibilities, its one of probabilities. I've never claimed its impossible to flip a cat; I've only claimed it doesn't happen that often. And when it does, it usually turns out to be human error, in the form of carrying way too much sail. Moreover, the loss of life is generally low. The self righting vessels are actually rare. During a wartime crossing the Queen Mary came within a degree or so of going over. Wave took out the wheelhouse windows, ninety feet above sea level. Nothing except a submarine is immune to big waves. Of course, those things routinely recover from sinking. I heard that ten thousand shipping containers are lost, during storms, every year. Hit one of those with many small craft, and you may not be concerned with capsizing. This is another risk where cats have a large advantage - there are numerous cases of cats surviving major damage that would sink a monohull in minutes. |
#53
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:20:50 -0000, "
wrote: Why put up with a boat that has a designed-in flaw of being more stable upside-down than rightside-up? That is nearly everything. All the ships and most smaller boats. Subs are stable, but they mostly submerge and avoid the issue of wave induced capsize. Why do some manufacturers of cats claim unsinkability ? Probably because they are.Many very small boats are. I have never seen[1] an outboard boat that didn't have flotation. We had an sixteen foot inboard that would sink like a rock if you flooded it, but that is another story. All big ships sink easily and some big ship is proving it, somewhere, most of the time. Cruise ship went down not too long ago. Foam is cheap. Subs are close to immune to wave caused flooding especially when down deep. You can put holes in them, however. The unsinkable stuff can pound on rocks until the foam is in tiny pieces. Metal lasts a bit longer than wood under those conditions, not that it matter in the least. What is the big deal about sinking? Many subs do it every day with no lasting ill effects. 1. Under twenty feet. I think it is legally required, actually. I dont know about the larger, and triple 250's will push something big. The biggest ones probably do sink. I am from Iowa, lakes only, waves under four feet. They have a few ballasted sailboats that will sink. The monohulls. We do have 35 MPH sailboats. Class A scows. 38 foot unsinkable monohulls. Those guys like our 20 foot deep 5700 acre lake, for the Nationals, because when[not if] they capsize there isn't space for them to go all the way over. Masts are forty feet tall. Scows sometimes go over and are righted without any flooding. Not so uncommon for small planing type sailboats. Casady |
#54
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:59:15 -0400, Jeff wrote:
Perhaps you are underestimating to ability of a fool to do the wrong thing at the wrong time. All the big ships will capsize, and not come back. Do you have a point? There actually are two, the really obvious ones. it usually turns out to be human error, See above, about fools. Then there are good sailors who rarely make mistakes. Sometimes one is all it takes There was the guy on the messdeck of a big ship, in a bad storm. He opened the backing plate on a porthole, was so horrified by what he saw that he failed to properly secure the port. and about fifteen tons of water entered. The water got to the engine room, drowned lots of electrics and the ship evertually sank when it lost all engine power. The self righting vessels are actually rare. During a wartime crossing the Queen Mary came within a degree or so of going over. Wave took out the wheelhouse windows, ninety feet above sea level. Nothing except a submarine is immune to big waves. Of course, those things routinely recover from sinking. I heard that ten thousand shipping containers are lost, during storms, every year. Hit one of those with many small craft, and you may not be concerned with capsizing. This is another risk where cats have a large advantage - there are numerous cases of cats surviving major damage that would sink a monohull in minute Some favor a watertight bulkhead forward on monohulls, with cargo containers in mind. Those things can even mess up a screw on a big ship. |
#55
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... Some favor a watertight bulkhead forward on monohulls, with cargo containers in mind. Those things can even mess up a screw on a big ship. It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they will sink if they go aglub. |
#56
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message news "Richard Casady" wrote in message ... Some favor a watertight bulkhead forward on monohulls, with cargo containers in mind. Those things can even mess up a screw on a big ship. It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they will sink if they go aglub. And I think for every container that is lost overboard the captain of the ship should be held responsible and fined 1000 dollars. I bet that would put a stop to it. Why is it over in China or Japan the top guy has the blame placed on him and gets shot or has to commit suicide when he screws up royally but in the good ole USA the top guy, no matter how badly he screws up, always manages to blame it on an underling who then takes the fall? Wilbur Hubbard |
#57
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:01:10 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: Actually, I'm doing just the opposite. I'm currently having a yacht built that is stout enough to survive the worst hurricane ever imagined and the worst seas it can produce. It consists of a 90 foot steel hull on the outside, then comes three feet of floatation foam, then comes an inside steel hull. Between the two steel hulls are ribs welded to each hull. Inside the inside hull there's a gimbaled and padded accommodation that sleeps six. It has four, watertight, transverse steel bulkheads and it's heavily ballasted with moderately deep fin/bulb keel. There's three, free-standing masts that telescope so in the retracted position they only protrude 20 feet above the deck. The hatches are all like submarine hatches, sealed and able to hold pressure. It has air tanks so it can be sealed up for up to 12 hours. It has an apparatus that can draw in outside air when it's sealed up. Of course it is self-righting to the max. The plan is for the ultimate survival sailing adventure. Purposely sail out and put the vessel in the path of a hurricane and then ride it out in safety. Clients would have bragging rights. "I sailed Hurricane Dennis when it was Cat 5." What do you think? I think you should name it Titanic Ironhorse, AH#130, HSB#96, SENS BS#187 2001 Ultraclassic with Sidecar 96 Custom bucket of bolts (gone but not forgotten) Republicans think every day is 4th of July Democrats think every day is April 15th Ronald Reagan |
#58
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:49:24 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote: It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they will sink if they go aglub. They will unless full of low density water resistant cargo. The doors on the boxes are not watertight. Electronics, with all that foam, just won't sink. CRT's are bouyant. So is wood. Depends entirely on the cargo. With the right cargo a boxboat is basically unsinkable. Read the empty weight stenciled on one that I spotted on I-80. Something over 8000 lbs. and they would weigh over 40 tons if full of water. That is way too heavy for a boxboat, some of those carry 8 000 containers. Those ships will not carry 300 000 tons. that is ridiculous, so the boxes have to weigh much less. They mostly start out very bouyant, but they are not watertight, like I said .Even so they can't be guaranteed to sink. They will take quite a while to, however. even if they do, eventually. A container washed off a ship and spilled a cargo of bathtub ducks. Scientists collected data on currents for years. Had it not come open, it would not have sunk until it dissolved into rust. There are the floating oil drums as well. Casady |
#59
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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Catamarans have something extra....
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:20:50 -0000, "
wrote: On Aug 20, 9:25 am, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message ups.com... On Aug 16, 9:24 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Yes, cruising catamarans have something extra. As a simple Google and YouTube search using capsize and catamaran will reveal, the something extra is the remarkable ease with which catamarans turn turtle. With this in mind, any potential catamaran buyer must ask himself if the paltry advantages of a catamaran - things such as small heel angles, slightly faster speeds downwind, more elbow room below (but not load carrying capacity), shallow draft and largish cockpit - outweigh the fact that sooner or later the whole shebang is going to end up upside-down and swamped. Don't even think about what happens if you get trapped under the thing and drown. Just think about upside-down. In other words, everything is ruined. Why put up with a boat that has a designed-in flaw of being more stable upside-down than rightside-up? Is the trade-off between a platform that doesn't heel quite as much and an upside-down platform worth it? Only you can answer that question. It depends upon how much you love your life and the lives of your loved ones. I wonder when the Coast Guard is going to get some balls and declare any and all cruising catamaran ocean voyages "manifestly unsafe voyages" and put a stop to them? Wilbur Hubbard Sir I think you are confusing racing cats and lightweight hobby cats with cruising cats, Cruising cats again and again have proven to be more stable than a monohull and I am a fan of the monohull. The appears to be more space in a cruising cat but this is an illusion as it is just more cramped spaces and more of them, but if you need to know the truth on cats go to http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/ Malcolm is one of the world's leading marine architects on catamarans. then you can speak with authority, check out the technical details and the record of CRUISING CATS . David Law Thanks but the bottom line is the stability curve. That says it all as far as I'm concerned. Cruising cats have stability curves similar to racing cats at the top of the curve where it says, "oh oh, turn turtle because there's no going back." Since they are heavier, the bottom of the curve looks a little better but that's spurious information because it's at the top where the problem arises. Anybody who claims cruising cats have an impeccable record are not familiar with the facts. People have died when their cruising cats have turned turtle. People will continue to die. The various manufacturers have an aggressive plan to cover up any incidents of capsize. They'd rather people weren't aware of the fact that they are selling a dangerous product. A product of dubious worth when it comes to ocean voyaging where sometimes one just cannot avoid a survival storm. Wilbur Hubbard WIlbur this is easily settled put your money where your mouth is, name 3 people who have died and name the manufacturer of the cat, and show how it caused their deaths. As you want them banned just go for it. you seem to know the facts please enlighten us, but beware some of the manufacturers have deep pockets and big lawyers. Why do some manufacturers of cats claim unsinkability ? which Pleasure cats have turned turtle due to the design or due to the captain taking them to hard, is it design or education? How come most of the southern hemisphere Australia and New Zealand there is a preference for cats, an their not sailed or motored in sheltered waters. Why did not all the polynesians die out it was the only boat they knew? to many questions and as for the conspiracy well I wasn't on the grassy knoll . you mean all these competing manufacturers said "hey guys lets not tell anyone this is unsafe" and the thousands of employees and all the staff never mentioned it to anyone untill you discovered it WOH !!! ELEMENTARY DEAR WATSON ! look at these guys http://www.trawlercatmarine.com/whatisnew.html and go tell them they are dangerous as all their range goes round the world, tell them it won't. Regards David Your problem, as mine was, is to believe that Wilbur responds to logic - he doesn't. Willie has decided that Cats are unsafe, therefore Cats are unsafe. That is the long and short of it. Logic, statistics or any other arcane knowledge available to the rest of the boating world is totally immaterial. Husband had decided and therefore it is so! Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
#60
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Catamarans have something extra....
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