On Jun 26, 8:34 pm, "Maxprop" wrote:
wrote in message

ps.com...

"Maxprop" wrote:
Three races: 6th, 9th, and DNF with 9 boats.

Pretty uneventful--just some really poor sailing on my part.

The 1D35 is a pretty technical boat. Plus it is far enough up the
power curve that the reflexes developed in sailing heavier, lower-
powered conventional boats are not really helpful.

My background in racing is strictly in dinghies. The boat feels sluggish
compared with, say, a Snipe or MC Scow.


That's hard to believe. It has far more horsepower per pound than the
MC, which is in turn a lot more powerful than the Snipe. OTOH because
it's a keelboat, it won't feel as jumpy and certainly will not be as
responsive when you move your feet as the small boats.


One of the best texts to help make the transition is Bethwaite's "High
Performance Sailing" in which he covers the development of the skiff
classes and has a number of clear diagrams showing what works, for
example where to aim the boat seeking best VMG on different points of
sail in different wind strengths.

I believe it's the one I've had for some years. Great book.


It is, and he carefully lays out how to ell when you want more power,
when you want less, and how to prioritize shifts versus pressure
depending on the boat's characteristics.

While it's true that a good sailor can step into any boat and do well,
boats with very different characteristics need to be handled
differently.... very differently sometimes. For example, catamaran
racing is almost a different sport.


How hard was the wind blowing? If you were running DDW there shouldn't
have been that much pressure on the chute unless it was blowing pretty
good.

Both offwind legs were broad reaches in 15 kts. plus.

I can see blowing out a 3/4 in that. Bummer.

Can't resist Mondy morning q-b'ing.... did you think about running
deep to take some pressure off the 'chute while you get set up for a
change, then shifting to either reacher or heavier chute?

DSK

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 26, 8:34 pm, "Maxprop" wrote:
wrote in message

ps.com...

"Maxprop" wrote:
Three races: 6th, 9th, and DNF with 9 boats.

Pretty uneventful--just some really poor sailing on my part.

The 1D35 is a pretty technical boat. Plus it is far enough up the
power curve that the reflexes developed in sailing heavier, lower-
powered conventional boats are not really helpful.

My background in racing is strictly in dinghies. The boat feels sluggish
compared with, say, a Snipe or MC Scow.


That's hard to believe. It has far more horsepower per pound than the
MC, which is in turn a lot more powerful than the Snipe. OTOH because
it's a keelboat, it won't feel as jumpy and certainly will not be as
responsive when you move your feet as the small boats.

It's absolutely more powerful than *anything* I've ever sailed on before.
It was actually shocking the first time we planed in roughly a 20 kt. wind
in a practice session on a broad/beam reach. The dry boat only weighs 6550,
and it shows. We were all hooting and howling for an hour. Talk about
adrenaline. As to your other comments, the Snipe was more weight and
balance sensitive than the MC, which probably has something to do with the
hull planforms. The flat scow tends to be very stable when on its bottom or
on plane, and it really isn't that squirrelly when up on an edge. The
Snipe, OTOH, is sensitive in any condition. But one learns to adapt, and
neither boat gave us any problem, beyond the beginner stages. The 1D35 is
quite stable on all points of sail. It's cockpit is large, and while I've
been trying to keep movement by the crew to a minimum, they do move around a
bit with almost no consequences. On windward legs they sit on the weather
rail as railmeat, of course, but off wind they find their places and tend to
stay there, with the obvious exception of the bow man who moves back when
not in a sail change or spinnaker jibe. I've discovered I can move back and
forth between the weather and lee cockpit sides when steering, even in light
air, and the boat really doesn't get bent outta shape at all. It's very
responsive to even small helm input--the tiller, a large stainless loop, is
long and powerful and the high-aspect spade rudder is looong--but not nearly
as sensitive to input as say the Snipe. Even the MC, with its smaller
rudder, was not as sensitive as the Snipe.


One of the best texts to help make the transition is Bethwaite's "High
Performance Sailing" in which he covers the development of the skiff
classes and has a number of clear diagrams showing what works, for
example where to aim the boat seeking best VMG on different points of
sail in different wind strengths.

I believe it's the one I've had for some years. Great book.


It is, and he carefully lays out how to ell when you want more power,
when you want less, and how to prioritize shifts versus pressure
depending on the boat's characteristics.

IIRC, I based most of my dinghy racing on his book. My placings improved
about three or four boats after reading and digesting the book. You just
aren't going to beat the best sailors in your fleet, no matter what, but it
was nice to see their transoms regularly and close-up.


While it's true that a good sailor can step into any boat and do well,
boats with very different characteristics need to be handled
differently.... very differently sometimes. For example, catamaran
racing is almost a different sport.

Agreed. I find them a bit boring, but that's coming from someone who
enjoyed Finns and Lasers, so I'm prejudiced. The Thistle was the most
challenging boat for me--keeping the rail out of the water when tacking in
heavy weather wasn't my strong suit, and it ships about 100 gallons
instantly if the rail buries.

How hard was the wind blowing? If you were running DDW there shouldn't
have been that much pressure on the chute unless it was blowing pretty
good.

Both offwind legs were broad reaches in 15 kts. plus.

I can see blowing out a 3/4 in that. Bummer.

I take the blame. The kid on the bow was a fill-in--our regular wasn't able
to be there--and he did a great job. I'd love to keep him as he's about 30
lbs. lighter than my regular guy. But he grabbed the wrong turtle and we
hoisted the wrong sail. If I'd been smart I'd have doused it immediately
and gone to the 1.5 oz, but I chose to stick with it rather than trade. Bad
move, and my fault. Cost us a finish.


Can't resist Mondy morning q-b'ing.... did you think about running
deep to take some pressure off the 'chute while you get set up for a
change, then shifting to either reacher or heavier chute?

Nope. Never cross my mind, which was my mistake. That's precisely what one
of the other skippers asked me after the race. Not sure you saw it in
another post, but that same skipper sold me one of his spare 3/4 oz.
asymmetrical in order to keep us "competitive." These are great folks, all.

Max

My background in racing is strictly in dinghies. The boat feels sluggish
compared with, say, a Snipe or MC Scow.

That's hard to believe. It has far more horsepower per pound than the
MC, which is in turn a lot more powerful than the Snipe. OTOH because
it's a keelboat, it won't feel as jumpy and certainly will not be as
responsive when you move your feet as the small boats.


"Maxprop" wrote:
It's absolutely more powerful than *anything* I've ever sailed on before.
It was actually shocking the first time we planed in roughly a 20 kt. wind

It should plane in less than that... might take a bit of meat on the
rail though.


..... As to your other comments, the Snipe was more weight and
balance sensitive than the MC, which probably has something to do with the
hull planforms. The flat scow tends to be very stable when on its bottom or
on plane, and it really isn't that squirrelly when up on an edge. The
Snipe, OTOH, is sensitive in any condition.

Sensitive yes, but not anywhere near as much power.
The 1D35 should be just about as sensitive, but not as jumpy because
there is so much more mass involved. For example, it should respond
just as readily as the Snipe to 1/2 degree increments on the helm...
or 1/100th degree increments... but will not turn as snappily because
of the rotational momentum.

..... But one learns to adapt, and
neither boat gave us any problem, beyond the beginner stages. The 1D35 is
quite stable on all points of sail. It's cockpit is large, and while I've
been trying to keep movement by the crew to a minimum, they do move around a
bit with almost no consequences. On windward legs they sit on the weather
rail as railmeat, of course, but off wind they find their places and tend to
stay there, with the obvious exception of the bow man who moves back when
not in a sail change or spinnaker jibe. I've discovered I can move back and
forth between the weather and lee cockpit sides when steering, even in light
air, and the boat really doesn't get bent outta shape at all.

I can see that.... but I bet there's a difference in VMG



IIRC, I based most of my dinghy racing on his book. My placings improved
about three or four boats after reading and digesting the book. You just
aren't going to beat the best sailors in your fleet, no matter what, but it
was nice to see their transoms regularly and close-up.


Heh, coming from a family of very tough minded racers, my expectation
is 'yes, you *can* beat the best; in fact you dam well better.'
However it takes a lot of homework and a lot of practice.


While it's true that a good sailor can step into any boat and do well,
boats with very different characteristics need to be handled
differently.... very differently sometimes. For example, catamaran
racing is almost a different sport.

Agreed. I find them a bit boring, but that's coming from someone who
enjoyed Finns and Lasers, so I'm prejudiced. The Thistle was the most
challenging boat for me--keeping the rail out of the water when tacking in
heavy weather wasn't my strong suit, and it ships about 100 gallons
instantly if the rail buries.


I find Thistles to be not much fun to sail. Responsive yes but very
crowded with elbows & knees and painful corners. Plus there is no
reason to have diamond stays on a boat, other than that you like
shredding spinnakers a couple times a season. They're awesome boats in
drifting conditions though.


Can't resist Mondy morning q-b'ing.... did you think about running
deep to take some pressure off the 'chute while you get set up for a
change, then shifting to either reacher or heavier chute?

Nope. Never cross my mind, which was my mistake. That's precisely what one
of the other skippers asked me after the race. Not sure you saw it in
another post, but that same skipper sold me one of his spare 3/4 oz.
asymmetrical in order to keep us "competitive." These are great folks, all.


A lot of one-design racers are like that. Good close racing is the
best fun. A lot of the top guys, including the pros, will help with
tuning, give tips on trim & balance, and strategy at specific places
(knowing local quirks in weather or current, for example)... right up
to the point where you're beating them most of the time. Then, you're
supposed to be the one helping *them*

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
oups.com...
My background in racing is strictly in dinghies. The boat feels
sluggish
compared with, say, a Snipe or MC Scow.

That's hard to believe. It has far more horsepower per pound than the
MC, which is in turn a lot more powerful than the Snipe. OTOH because
it's a keelboat, it won't feel as jumpy and certainly will not be as
responsive when you move your feet as the small boats.


"Maxprop" wrote:
It's absolutely more powerful than *anything* I've ever sailed on before.
It was actually shocking the first time we planed in roughly a 20 kt.
wind

It should plane in less than that... might take a bit of meat on the
rail though.

It will, but probably not with an inexperienced skipper driving. It takes
an agile crew and sheeting in the main and genoa in a well-timed and
coordinated fashion to get it onto plane and keep it there in less than
20kts. At 20 or above, it's a fairly simple process.



..... As to your other comments, the Snipe was more weight and
balance sensitive than the MC, which probably has something to do with
the
hull planforms. The flat scow tends to be very stable when on its bottom
or
on plane, and it really isn't that squirrelly when up on an edge. The
Snipe, OTOH, is sensitive in any condition.

Sensitive yes, but not anywhere near as much power.

Probably true. The Snipe is somewhat undercanvased. That's part of the
class's appeal.

The 1D35 should be just about as sensitive, but not as jumpy because
there is so much more mass involved. For example, it should respond
just as readily as the Snipe to 1/2 degree increments on the helm...
or 1/100th degree increments... but will not turn as snappily because
of the rotational momentum.

The helm is not as responsive on the 1D35 as a typical dinghy racer. While
someone who's sailed Catalina 34s, for example, might find my boat to be
twitchy by comparison, most dinghy racers find it to be a more sedate
machine. That said, the helm is a delight. It's superbly balanced, with
just the right amount of weather helm in just about all windspeeds I've
encountered. I took a couple of Mumm 30 skippers out for a sail last week
and they said they liked the feel of the boat better than their own class
racer. Of course such observations are largely subjective and hardly
definitive. I've sailed Mumm 30s and I love 'em.


..... But one learns to adapt, and
neither boat gave us any problem, beyond the beginner stages. The 1D35
is
quite stable on all points of sail. It's cockpit is large, and while
I've
been trying to keep movement by the crew to a minimum, they do move
around a
bit with almost no consequences. On windward legs they sit on the
weather
rail as railmeat, of course, but off wind they find their places and tend
to
stay there, with the obvious exception of the bow man who moves back when
not in a sail change or spinnaker jibe. I've discovered I can move back
and
forth between the weather and lee cockpit sides when steering, even in
light
air, and the boat really doesn't get bent outta shape at all.

I can see that.... but I bet there's a difference in VMG

Depends upon who is on the weather rail. I've got a great winch man who
watches me closely. If I drop to the lee side, he'll automatically move to
weather to compensate for my movement. I also give him the helm for dead
runs--he's a master at steering such legs. I hate them.


IIRC, I based most of my dinghy racing on his book. My placings improved
about three or four boats after reading and digesting the book. You just
aren't going to beat the best sailors in your fleet, no matter what, but
it
was nice to see their transoms regularly and close-up.


Heh, coming from a family of very tough minded racers, my expectation
is 'yes, you *can* beat the best; in fact you dam well better.'
However it takes a lot of homework and a lot of practice.

True, but it's tough to beat those who've sailed a particular class boat for
the past 20 years while you've just begun, not to mention that they
generally lived on the lake and had 'local knowledge' out the ying yang.
During my five years of Snipe racing, I won exactly three races, placed
second in about that many, and finished in the top five only about 20 times.
I'm not complaining--sailing against such competitors was a great learning
experience, and they were always up in the top 20 nationally, so the
experience was valid. On all three wins, I was essentially in a match race
on the final leg or two, and simply covered the second place boat well. At
least that many times I failed to cover, taking a flyer instead, and losing
big.

While it's true that a good sailor can step into any boat and do well,
boats with very different characteristics need to be handled
differently.... very differently sometimes. For example, catamaran
racing is almost a different sport.

Agreed. I find them a bit boring, but that's coming from someone who
enjoyed Finns and Lasers, so I'm prejudiced. The Thistle was the most
challenging boat for me--keeping the rail out of the water when tacking
in
heavy weather wasn't my strong suit, and it ships about 100 gallons
instantly if the rail buries.


I find Thistles to be not much fun to sail. Responsive yes but very
crowded with elbows & knees and painful corners. Plus there is no
reason to have diamond stays on a boat, other than that you like
shredding spinnakers a couple times a season. They're awesome boats in
drifting conditions though.

I tend to believe Sandy (Gordon) Douglass was a sadist. The boat is
anything but comfortable, and while it does ghost very well, it can be a
handful in heavier air. It carries a spinnaker almost as large as that of a
Lightning, and planes in a very frightening fashion if the crew isn't agile
and prepared. But it was the only class worth joining when I was in college
at IU (Bloomington).


Can't resist Mondy morning q-b'ing.... did you think about running
deep to take some pressure off the 'chute while you get set up for a
change, then shifting to either reacher or heavier chute?

Nope. Never cross my mind, which was my mistake. That's precisely what
one
of the other skippers asked me after the race. Not sure you saw it in
another post, but that same skipper sold me one of his spare 3/4 oz.
asymmetrical in order to keep us "competitive." These are great folks,
all.


A lot of one-design racers are like that. Good close racing is the
best fun. A lot of the top guys, including the pros, will help with
tuning, give tips on trim & balance, and strategy at specific places
(knowing local quirks in weather or current, for example)... right up
to the point where you're beating them most of the time. Then, you're
supposed to be the one helping *them*

I won a race this weekend, mostly because the second place boat had an
equipment failure on the final leg, which was a beam reach following a
fortuitous wind shift, and he and I were substantially ahead of the fleet,
thanks to the fleet taking a flyer and getting nixed by the shift. But I've
learned more from that guy and others in the past month than I could ever
glean from the few books dedicated to racing larger class keel boats.
Everyone has been helpful, some to their own detriment, as I've been
finishing better than a couple of them regularly. I'm still known as "the
new guy," but that moniker may fall shortly. We've just had another guy
join our fleet after buying a boat on the east coast and having it shipped
in. Word has it that he's an ace in Melges 20s or something similar.

Max

Max