Mac26X fit for all waters
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:18:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: Though I won't go ocean sailing, I can't exclude the possibility of getting caught in 6-8' waves in the Gulf. I'm not sure the Marshall 22 would be safer in that than the Mac 26. A windy day sailing in the Gulf is comparable to being on the ocean. The only real difference is that the swells are smaller but it is not the swells that bother you. There are *no* boats in the 20 ft range suitable for 6 to 8 ft wind waves in my opinion. The boat will probably survive if it doesn't capsize but the people will be in rough shape after a short time. Even 40 footers get tiresome upwind in 6 to 8 ft waves unless they are very heavily built. |
Mac26X fit for all waters
* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/13/2007 9:18 AM:
Let's just say that if I had a quarter million boat budget a Mac 26 "would not be considered" - for any purpose. When I was younger I used to think, "If I had the money, I'd do ..." whatever seemed neat at the time. As the money became less of an issue, I realized it was harder to know what I really wanted. As I've said, the concept of driving around the country with a Mac doesn't sound that bad. (But I'd probably do it with an RV and a kayak.) I would simply buy one sailboat that sailed well for sailing and a boat like the Parker for gunkholing, and have plenty of cash to spare. Or maybe a low draft cat, which could actually suit both goals. My impression is that a knee-deep (=24") draft cat with suitable 3 week livability for 2 either doesn't exist or cost too much for my budget, but I may be wrong about that, as I haven't looked hard. There are no cats that I would consider that can be had for under $50K. Around $80K is entry level for a used Gemini or vintage Prout. Of course, these are more than short vacation boats. The problem is that the concept of cruising cats doesn't scale down very well, and the 30 footers are the equivalent of a 40 foot monohull. The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can be under 30K. I do think cats make the best cruisers and generally sail very well, so I'm in no way a traditional sailing purist. BTW, using that Mac which turtled as an argument against the Mac is akin to claiming F/P Tobago 35 cruising cats flip easily because of that recent Gulf incident. Apparently that cat also flipped in '01. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rs-3534-3.html These rare owner-induced incidents put me off a boat no more than knowing that a 42' mast shouldn't be sailed under high voltage lines hanging 40' above the water. Owner-induced would is a good term for it. BTW, I'm not the one who brought up the case of the Mac July 4 tragedy - I didn't even raise safety as an issue until Ed tried to claim that the Mac was not to blame. The difference is that everyone knows that a cat has the potential to flip if the conditions get bad enough and you don't reduce sail. Generally they are designed to handle 40 knots with full sail, but the Tobago is aggressive with the sail area (about 30% more than mine with less weight) so extra care would be needed. I don't know the full story of this episode, but I gather they carried full sail in a squall a ways offshore. The Mac episode was rather different. Someone had borrowed the boat on July 4th and took out some friends (with a few kids) to watch the fireworks. Yes, there were a few people above the recommended limit, and yes there was alcohol, but this was probably the case for half the boats that left the dock that night across the country. The weather was perfect: no wind, no waves. They pulled the anchor and apparently the driver goosed the throttle by mistake. The boat tipped, someone probably grabbed a stay, and it rolled over. I might expect this behavior from a racing dinghy, or even a centerboard daysailer, but not a 26 foot "cruising" boat. It is the totally unexpected nature of this accident that sets it apart. .... Is there some reason why you need a new boat? No, but I don't buy fixer-uppers. I like turnkey shipshape. I can handle buying old cars because I concentrate on certain models I know well. I *never* encounter unanticipated expenses. Don't fool yourself that new boats are "trouble free." I thought that buying new from a quality builder would give me a "grace period" but that was not the case. The engine gave me a lot of trouble for the first year, including a 3 weeks unscheduled delay, fortunately in Charleston SC, and paid for by Yanmar. The fuel lines almost had us stranded 30 miles from shore on our first voyage. Much of the plumbing was done by an apprentice and had to be gone over,inch by inch. In fact, while most of the standard features worked fine, the custom items, like the Lavac head and the big fridge were a mess and have taken years to sort out. As a whole, the boat got "better" for a few years, and then age started catching up. So my experience is that "turnkey" is really achieved on a 2-3 year old boat, whereas a new boat may have as many problems as a 5 year old. Of course, with a trailer boat you have the possibility of sending it back to the dealer for re-grooving. (BTW, PDQ understands these new-boat issues. They have a couple of crews that drive around to the new boat owners during the Spring delivery season fixing as many of the new boat problems as possible.) I know diddly about boat construction and hidden problems, except that many owners find out about them too late. If I buy used, I'll go in with my eyes open. Survey! Don't buy without a survey! And never ever use a surveyor recommended by the broker. (The best thing you can hear from your broker when you're selling is "they're using a surveyor we recommended.") |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote:
The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can be under 30K. Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. The Mac episode was rather different. Someone had borrowed the boat on July 4th and took out some friends (with a few kids) to watch the fireworks. Yes, there were a few people above the recommended limit, and yes there was alcohol, but this was probably the case for half the boats that left the dock that night across the country. The weather was perfect: no wind, no waves. They pulled the anchor and apparently the driver goosed the throttle by mistake. The boat tipped, someone probably grabbed a stay, and it rolled over. I might expect this behavior from a racing dinghy, or even a centerboard daysailer, but not a 26 foot "cruising" boat. It is the totally unexpected nature of this accident that sets it apart. Well, my take is plain operator stupidity, and AFAIK it's a unique incident. There were *11* people and a dog on the boat. Three little girls, two of whom tragically drowned - that really ****es me off - and the dog were in the cabin. The operator was in the cockpit. The other *7* adults, weighing who knows how much, were on the bow. Duh. *Nothing* is idiot-proof. I was driving a big rented pontoon boat on a family fishing trip one time and the damn thing almost tipped over when 4 heavyweights all went to a forward corner. Totally unexpected. The current was strong, and of course nobody was wearing a PFD. It was scary, and if somebody drowned it would have been my fault for not knowing the boat's limitations, and not instructing the passengers on the rules. --Vic |
Mac26X fit for all waters
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote: The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can be under 30K. Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go tri. Wilbur Hubbard |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:03:24 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:18:06 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: Though I won't go ocean sailing, I can't exclude the possibility of getting caught in 6-8' waves in the Gulf. I'm not sure the Marshall 22 would be safer in that than the Mac 26. A windy day sailing in the Gulf is comparable to being on the ocean. The only real difference is that the swells are smaller but it is not the swells that bother you. There are *no* boats in the 20 ft range suitable for 6 to 8 ft wind waves in my opinion. The boat will probably survive if it doesn't capsize but the people will be in rough shape after a short time. Even 40 footers get tiresome upwind in 6 to 8 ft waves unless they are very heavily built. Good observations, and I'll keep them in mind. I said "caught" because I want no part of seas that rough. But I don't count on weather reports to be 100% accurate, so it could happen. --Vic |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:59:57 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. More correctly stated, it can sail circles around a Mac. I had a ring side seat for the Corsair 28Rs at Key West Race Week this year and they were extremely impressive. Here's a link to an interesting GPS based video of the last race which does a good job of illustrating their off wind speed: http://tinyurl.com/34xanw |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:44:40 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:59:57 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. More correctly stated, it can sail circles around a Mac. I had a ring side seat for the Corsair 28Rs at Key West Race Week this year and they were extremely impressive. Here's a link to an interesting GPS based video of the last race which does a good job of illustrating their off wind speed: http://tinyurl.com/34xanw Very nice. I can watch this one a few times at a time. Do you what the x/y axes represent? Yards? How about wind speeds? --Vic |
Mac26X fit for all waters
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 6/14/2007 3:09 PM:
Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go tri. Wilbur Hubbard You know even less about boats than Neal did. Its pretty well known that tris are more prone to flipping than cats. There are are number of reasons, but one major difference is that a tri will fly a hull, which allows the wind to push up underneath. The opposite hull (or ama) then is getting pushed under. Even though the tri is wider than a cat, since only the center hull and one ama actually provides buoyancy at one time, the the effective beam is less. This situation can go critical when going over a wave, and the windward ama lifts up, while the leeward one dips. This is why the extreme racing tris sometimes have half the fleet capsize in a race. The Corsairs have had their share of incidents, but the vast majority have been during racing, there have been very few incidents with boats setup for cruising. |
Mac26X fit for all waters
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote: The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can be under 30K. Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go tri. Wilbur Hubbard Np, any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go with a Wharrum Cat. |
Mac26X fit for all waters
"cavelamb himself" wrote in message k.net... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:32:55 -0400, Jeff wrote: The one possibility might be a used Corsair F24 tri - rather spartan on the accommodations, but shoal draft, wicked fast, and used they can be under 30K. Thanks. I had discounted tri's because of cabin size, but after looking a little deeper now, the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. It can also turn turtle in a cat's meow. (pun intended). But, tris are a little less likely to turn turtle than catamarans. Any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go tri. Wilbur Hubbard Np, any sane person who wants to sail a multi will go with a Wharrum Cat. Yah, right! Would that be James Wharrum? Bwahahahahahhahahahahahah! I think a "Wharram" cat would be better. And there's some clowns here who claim I don't know anything about boats? Wilbur Hubbard |
Mac26X fit for all waters
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:59:57 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. More correctly stated, it can sail circles around a Mac. I had a ring side seat for the Corsair 28Rs at Key West Race Week this year and they were extremely impressive. Here's a link to an interesting GPS based video of the last race which does a good job of illustrating their off wind speed: http://tinyurl.com/34xanw Very informative. The crew of Dealer's choice is clearly superior with their upwind work. Must be Capt. Neal at the helm. He lives in Key West, doesn't he? Wilbur Hubbard |
Mac26X fit for all waters
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:50:36 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message . .. On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:59:57 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: the F24 is a possibility for the trips I have in mind. This thing can sail as fast as a Mac can power, and actually drafts less. More correctly stated, it can sail circles around a Mac. I had a ring side seat for the Corsair 28Rs at Key West Race Week this year and they were extremely impressive. Here's a link to an interesting GPS based video of the last race which does a good job of illustrating their off wind speed: http://tinyurl.com/34xanw Very informative. The crew of Dealer's choice is clearly superior with their upwind work. Must be Capt. Neal at the helm. He lives in Key West, doesn't he? Wilbur Hubbard Neal... If you are living in Key West, you must be sleeping with the chickens. CWM Didn't you hear? Key West hired a Mexican chicken catcher. No lie! Hey, do you know why Negroes rarely marry Mexicans? They're afraid their kids would be too lazy to steal. Wilbur Hubbard |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:33:30 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: Good observations, and I'll keep them in mind. I said "caught" because I want no part of seas that rough. But I don't count on weather reports to be 100% accurate, so it could happen. 6 to 8 ft waves are routine conditions offshore on open water. |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:07:57 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: Very nice. I can watch this one a few times at a time. Do you what the x/y axes represent? Yards? How about wind speeds? The course was Windward/Leeward with legs of about 2 miles, so the scale could be either yards or meters. Wind was about 10 kts out of the north east. Dealers Choice was consistently the number one boat all week long and it's easy to see why when you watch their tactics. |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:53:42 +0200, Ed Gordon wrote:
Jeff wrote in : So please explain to us which boats it sails faster than. You've said many times that its a "fast sailer" but when I look at the ratings, I have trouble finding a boat remotely comparable to a Mac that isn't 10% faster, or more. In fact, its real hard to find a boat that's slower than a Mac. So please, give us an example of a boat that sails slower than a Mac. Any boat that has less length waterline will be slower than a Mac under sail. Yeah... I'm sure the Martin 242 (or Hotfoot 20) sailors are shaking in their boots when they see a Mac26 next to them... But since the Mac is a plaining hull it can go faster than heavy ballast keel boats in winds strong enough to plain it off. You want an example, just look up boats that have less than a 23 feet. Here's one much slower Alerion Express 20. I watched a Mac26 and a Catalina 27 sail upwind in about 10-15knots (from ahead of course, I was in my Catalina 36...). They looked about equal, although the Mac was heeling unbeleivably at times. Then they tacked... and it turned out the Mac had so much leeway it was 1/2 mile behind! Thanks, but I think even a trailerable Cat 22 would beat a Mac26 (and doesn't capsize for no reason, and will take more than 5 passengers...) druid - has had 12 on his Cal 25 without it capsizing http://www.bcboatnet.org |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:05:31 -0500, KLC Lewis wrote:
SPECIAL SAFETY INFORMATION 26M SPECIAL SAFETY WARNINGS: Boats, like any other form of transportation, have inherent risks. Attentions to these warnings and instructions should help keep these risks to a minimum. THE WATER BALLAST TANK SHOULD BE FULL WHEN EITHER POWERING OR SAILING. IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.) WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS FULL: - NO MORE THAN 6 PERSONS, 960 POUNDS. WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS EMPTY: - NO MORE THAN 4 PERSON, OR 640 POUNDS. - CREW WEIGHT CENTERED FROM SIDE TO SIDE. - ALL SAILS REMOVED, ENGINE POWER ONLY. - NO ONE ON THE CABIN TOP OR FORDECK. - WAVES LESS THAN 1 FOOT. -OPERATE WHERE WATER IS WARM AND RESCUE IS LIKELY. - NEVER OPERATE THE BOAT WITH A PARTIALLY FILLED TANK. WHEN POWERING OVER 6 MILES PER HOUR: - RUDDERS AND DAGGERBOARD FULL UP. - SAILS REMOVED. - NO ONE ON THE CABIN TOP OR FOREDECK. OK, so the Mac is supposed to also be a (planing, presumably) powerboat. But I have yet to see ANY trailerable powerboat over 20 ft with these kind of safety restrictions. Hell, even a BAYLINER you can ride on the foredeck, have more than 6 people on board, or operate in waves greater than 1 foot... druid http://www.bcboatnet.org |
Mac26X fit for all waters
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:58:58 +0200, Ed Gordon wrote:
"KLC Lewis" wrote in et: So when the wind pipes up to force 6 or 7 and the mast starts pumping and flexing that cabintop and you're 2000 miles from anywhere... "Oh God, thy sea is so big and my boat is so small, and why didn't you bless me with two broken legs on the day before I was to set off on this voyage?" On a Mac you can take the mast down for less windage. It makes the stability better, too. You can motor along and keep up with the waves so they don't break over you. You've never been IN force 6 or 7, have you? In conditions like that, you're gonna go forward and TAKE THE MAST DOWN? 'Course, you could just put up the main and wait for the wind to do the job for you... druid http://www.bcboatnet.org |
Mac26X spotted
last week while sailing in 10-15kt on a beam reach, doing
5-6.5 kts, I see a sail boat with no sails , motoring through the waves. ''it'' passed me, a Mac26x. God what an UGLY boat! Scotty |
Mac26X spotted
"Scotty" wrote in message . .. last week while sailing in 10-15kt on a beam reach, doing 5-6.5 kts, I see a sail boat with no sails , motoring through the waves. ''it'' passed me, a Mac26x. God what an UGLY boat! Scotty Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Greg |
Mac26X spotted
"Gregory Hall" wrote in message
... "Scotty" wrote in message . .. last week while sailing in 10-15kt on a beam reach, doing 5-6.5 kts, I see a sail boat with no sails , motoring through the waves. ''it'' passed me, a Mac26x. God what an UGLY boat! Scotty Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Greg Beauty is skin deep. Ugly goes all the way to the bone. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mac26X fit for all waters
|
Mac26X fit for all waters
"Duncan McC (NZ)" wrote in message . nz... IIRC, it was the container shippping cost only - San Fran to Christchurch, NZ I think. ie a pack the boat in yourself job, and unpack - and hope you don't get customs requesting a fumigation etc etc. Actually, they probably would want the container fumigated. Oz and NZ are real fussy about the wood that comes onto their island. It must be heat treated, and stamped so, or they will insist on fumigation. Even stamped wood still gets bored for testing frequently. Of course, there is no wood on a Mac, just one big Clorox bottle . SBV |
Mac26X spotted
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:58:01 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote this crap: "Gregory Hall" wrote in message ... "Scotty" wrote in message . .. last week while sailing in 10-15kt on a beam reach, doing 5-6.5 kts, I see a sail boat with no sails , motoring through the waves. ''it'' passed me, a Mac26x. God what an UGLY boat! Scotty Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Greg Beauty is skin deep. Ugly goes all the way to the boner. You have to gay-up everything, don't you? This post is 100% free of steroids |
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