Missing Sailors
 

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/422839.html

Missing Sailors
 

Bart wrote:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/422839.html

According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible out
by Lookout...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

Missing Sailors
 

On May 14, 9:50 am, katy wrote:
Bart wrote:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/422839.html

According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible out
by Lookout...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

The boat had a roller furling main, and jib. I bet they were un-
managable.
You see roller furling rigs all the time that get blown open and
people are unable to refurl them in a real storm. Many people make the
wrong assumption that they are safer than hank on sails. In most
situations roller furling is ok, but in severe situations they are
just to risky IMO. Proper sized and shaped sails for a storm is the
only way to go.

Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.

Joe

Missing Sailors
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 14, 9:50 am, katy wrote:
Bart wrote:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/422839.html

According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible
out
by Lookout...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind
was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

The boat had a roller furling main, and jib. I bet they were un-
managable.
You see roller furling rigs all the time that get blown open and
people are unable to refurl them in a real storm. Many people make the
wrong assumption that they are safer than hank on sails. In most
situations roller furling is ok, but in severe situations they are
just to risky IMO. Proper sized and shaped sails for a storm is the
only way to go.

Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.

Joe


Excellent point!

If they were using roll-ups they were probably smug and self-righteous
about how great roll-ups are. You've heard all the ridiculous arguments
in their favor and lame justifications here enough times to make you
want to hurl. So, I don't share the same hopes as you have, Joe. I'd
rather they all drowned. It would serve them right for not listening to
common sense and ignoring the experience and insight of more experienced
sailors who have told them a hundred times to get real, hank-on sails
and enough of them for safe sailing in all wind conditions.

Get rid of roll-ups. You could easily die if you don't. Leave them to
the racers whose lives are forfeit in the first place. They have no
business on a cruising sailboat.

Wilbur Hubbard

Missing Sailors
 

katysails wrote:
According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible out
by Lookout

Couple of folks here ventured out into the Sound and poked out for a
quick look outside Beaufort. Very rough water!


...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

Was that right at Pt Comfort? That would be all but open to the sea,
the Virginia Capes would funnel seas into that area.

Joe wrote:
The boat had a roller furling main, and jib. I bet they were un-
managable.
You see roller furling rigs all the time that get blown open

Only by stupid people who don't have them rigged properly.

One might just as well make the assumption that since so many cars
have standard transmission, and so many cars get in wrecks, that
anybody who drives a standard is going to have a wreck.



Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.


Now I agree with you there.... hoping for the best.

DSK

Missing Sailors
 

Missing Sailors
 

On May 14, 11:40 am, katy wrote:
wrote:
katysails wrote:

According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible out
by Lookout

Couple of folks here ventured out into the Sound and poked out for a
quick look outside Beaufort. Very rough water!

...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

Was that right at Pt Comfort? That would be all but open to the sea,
the Virginia Capes would funnel seas into that area.

Yes...we went down and tried to walk in front of the batteries just
north of the lighthouse...was impossible...



Joe wrote:

The boat had a roller furling main, and jib. I bet they were un-
managable.
You see roller furling rigs all the time that get blown open

Only by stupid people who don't have them rigged properly.

One might just as well make the assumption that since so many cars
have standard transmission, and so many cars get in wrecks, that
anybody who drives a standard is going to have a wreck.

Why would you try to roll it back up at that point anyway? Just drag it
down or cut it off if it wasn't salvageble...

Can you drag down a roll up under a heavy load? , the bolt track with
thousands of pounds of pressure along the whole track is like a brake
in a brake drum. A full flogging set of sails is a real drag.

Every crusing boat should have a storm jib and main. The P40 that
took off crusing next to me had a bullet proof set made in
international orange.

Joe



Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.

Now I agree with you there.... hoping for the best.

Ditto that...





DSK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Missing Sailors
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 14, 9:50 am, katy wrote:
Bart wrote:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/422839.html

According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible out
by Lookout...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

The boat had a roller furling main, and jib. I bet they were un-
managable.
You see roller furling rigs all the time that get blown open and
people are unable to refurl them in a real storm. Many people make the
wrong assumption that they are safer than hank on sails. In most
situations roller furling is ok, but in severe situations they are
just to risky IMO. Proper sized and shaped sails for a storm is the
only way to go.

Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.

Joe



For the main, I agree... if it's in the mast, well, that's just asking for
trouble... no way to drop it without cutting the sail. For a headsail, it's
easy to drop the jib with a furler... pop the halyard, you're done.
Typically, however, you're right that if bad weather is forecast, bringing
down the furler and using a hanked on storm sail is safer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Missing Sailors
 

Joe wrote:


Can you drag down a roll up under a heavy load?

Yes...and I have done it...
, the bolt track with
thousands of pounds of pressure along the whole track is like a brake
in a brake drum. A full flogging set of sails is a real drag.

It's a drag whether it's a roll up or a hank on in thos conditions...

Every crusing boat should have a storm jib and main. The P40 that
took off crusing next to me had a bullet proof set made in
international orange.

Joe



Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.

Now I agree with you there.... hoping for the best.

Ditto that...






DSK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Missing Sailors
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

For the main, I agree... if it's in the mast, well, that's just asking for
trouble... no way to drop it without cutting the sail. For a headsail,
it's easy to drop the jib with a furler... pop the halyard, you're done.
Typically, however, you're right that if bad weather is forecast, bringing
down the furler and using a hanked on storm sail is safer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OK then, what are you going to hank it onto? If you bring down the roller
foresail you are left with a thick aluminium roller which you cannot hank
onto.
Moreover, you have to totally unroll the foresail before you can bring it
down so you had best do it before the wind gets up too much.
My boat has two grooves in the roller so you can hoist a smaller sail before
you take the other one down but this is a racing tactic and implies that you
have ample skilled crew, not only on the foredeck, but also back in the
cockpit to work the halliards, while someone else steers..
I sail with just my wife as crew and such activities are not an option.
I have a very robust furling gear and cannot envisage any situation where I
would not be able to roll the foresail right tightly up. Not only can I put
the furling line on a winch but I have it set up so that after the sail is
totally rolled it puts another two turns of the sheets around it. No way it
is going to unroll after that.
If you think that going onto the foredeck in a storm and unhanking one sail,
getting it down the forehatch, and replacing it with another which you fetch
up through the open hatch is a good option I can confidently assert that you
have never been out in a storm with only one other crewmember.

Missing Sailors
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

For the main, I agree... if it's in the mast, well, that's just
asking for trouble... no way to drop it without cutting the sail. For
a headsail, it's easy to drop the jib with a furler... pop the
halyard, you're done. Typically, however, you're right that if bad
weather is forecast, bringing down the furler and using a hanked on
storm sail is safer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OK then, what are you going to hank it onto? If you bring down the
roller foresail you are left with a thick aluminium roller which you
cannot hank onto.
Moreover, you have to totally unroll the foresail before you can bring
it down so you had best do it before the wind gets up too much.
My boat has two grooves in the roller so you can hoist a smaller sail
before you take the other one down but this is a racing tactic and
implies that you have ample skilled crew, not only on the foredeck,
but also back in the cockpit to work the halliards, while someone else
steers..
I sail with just my wife as crew and such activities are not an
option.
I have a very robust furling gear and cannot envisage any situation
where I would not be able to roll the foresail right tightly up. Not
only can I put the furling line on a winch but I have it set up so
that after the sail is totally rolled it puts another two turns of the
sheets around it. No way it is going to unroll after that.
If you think that going onto the foredeck in a storm and unhanking one
sail, getting it down the forehatch, and replacing it with another
which you fetch up through the open hatch is a good option I can
confidently assert that you have never been out in a storm with only
one other crewmember.


Then you're no sailor!

People who use real sails and know how to sail and change headsails can
tell just by looking and listening when a storm is coming up. We prepare
in advance by hanking on a storm jib below the lower hank on the working
jib and storing it lashed down in it's little Sunbrella bag. All one
needs to do to change sails is to lower the working jib, unsnap the
tack, snap on the storm jib tack, snap the halyard off the jib and onto
the head of the storm sail, untie and transfer the sheets, stuff the jib
into the bag and unclip the working jib hanks. Then snap on the storm
jib hanks and haul away on the halyard and you're done. It takes about
two or three minutes max.

The secret to safety and no hassles is to reef sooner rather than later.

Wilbur Hubbard

Missing Sailors
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

For the main, I agree... if it's in the mast, well, that's just asking
for trouble... no way to drop it without cutting the sail. For a
headsail, it's easy to drop the jib with a furler... pop the halyard,
you're done. Typically, however, you're right that if bad weather is
forecast, bringing down the furler and using a hanked on storm sail is
safer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OK then, what are you going to hank it onto? If you bring down the roller
foresail you are left with a thick aluminium roller which you cannot hank
onto.

You don't have to use a hank on actually. They do make storm sails that fit
around a furled jib. But, underneath the aluminum roller is the headstay.
It's not that hard to remove if you have enough time. And, you don't need a
jib to sail. You can sail under greatly reduced main (e.g., 3rd reef or
storm main).

Moreover, you have to totally unroll the foresail before you can bring it
down so you had best do it before the wind gets up too much.
My boat has two grooves in the roller so you can hoist a smaller sail
before you take the other one down but this is a racing tactic and implies
that you have ample skilled crew, not only on the foredeck, but also back
in the cockpit to work the halliards, while someone else steers..

Well, yes... if you don't have crew that can handle the conditions, then all
the hardware you can carry won't do squat.

I sail with just my wife as crew and such activities are not an option.
I have a very robust furling gear and cannot envisage any situation where
I would not be able to roll the foresail right tightly up. Not only can I
put the furling line on a winch but I have it set up so that after the
sail is totally rolled it puts another two turns of the sheets around it.
No way it is going to unroll after that.

I've never had to put the furling line on a winch... even on a 60 ft boat...
Chances are good that you may roll it too tightly, and thus it won't go all
the way.

If you think that going onto the foredeck in a storm and unhanking one
sail, getting it down the forehatch, and replacing it with another which
you fetch up through the open hatch is a good option I can confidently
assert that you have never been out in a storm with only one other
crewmember.

Never said I did nor would I do such a thing. That's called bad planning.





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Missing Sailors
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...


People who use real sails and know how to sail and change headsails can
tell just by looking and listening when a storm is coming up. We prepare
in advance by hanking on a storm jib below the lower hank on the working
jib and storing it lashed down in it's little Sunbrella bag.

You have forgotten that your 'working jib' has to have its tack fastened to
the stemhead fitting so you cannot do what you suggest unless your 'working
jib' has a wire at the tack long enough to allow it to set above your 'storm
jib' hanks which means that the foot of the sail will be well clear of the
deck. So your 'working jib' must of necessity be a small and inefficient
sail because in modern yachts only the actual storm jib has such a wire to
lift it clear of the deck to avoid lumps of water hitting the sail.

needs to do to change sails is to lower the working jib, unsnap the
tack, snap on the storm jib tack, snap the halyard off the jib and onto
the head of the storm sail, untie and transfer the sheets, stuff the jib
into the bag and unclip the working jib hanks.

Now I know you have never done it in a storm. Stuff the sail in a bag on
deck in strong wind?!!! You would breath a sigh of relief if you succeeded
in stuffing it down the fore hatch without losing it oveboard

Then snap on the storm
jib hanks

You said the sail was already hanked on...


The secret to safety and no hassles is to reef sooner rather than later.

Well, you are right there at least.

Missing Sailors
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

You don't have to use a hank on actually. They do make storm sails that
fit around a furled jib. But, underneath the aluminum roller is the
headstay. It's not that hard to remove if you have enough time.

I don't know what you mean. My roller is a solid tube with the wire inside
it and it is upwards of 45 feet long so removing it is not an option. If
you can somehow remove your roller where are you going to stow it?

And, you don't need a
jib to sail. You can sail under greatly reduced main (e.g., 3rd reef or
storm main).

yes, of course. That is why a roller beats hanked on sails. You do not have
to go forward and mess with flogging sailcloth in bad conditions. This is
where 'Wilbur' has not thought it through. By the time you have removed the
sheets to another sail and then unhanked it the sail is completely free to
wash overboard if conditions are bad. He thinks he can bag it up on the
deck!
snip

I've never had to put the furling line on a winch... even on a 60 ft
boat... Chances are good that you may roll it too tightly, and thus it
won't go all the way.

One does not normally have to use the winch but in any case the winch has
nothing to do with how tight it rolls. This depends on the tension you keep
on the sheets while rolling. You need some tension to get a neat roll but
you certainly do not need to hold the sheets so tight that you need a winch
to fight the strain. But a self-tailing winch makes the job much easier if
you are one person doing both jobs.

If you think that going onto the foredeck in a storm and unhanking one
sail, getting it down the forehatch, and replacing it with another which
you fetch up through the open hatch is a good option I can confidently
assert that you have never been out in a storm with only one other
crewmember.

Never said I did nor would I do such a thing. That's called bad planning.

Don't know anything about conditions on the US West coast but around Uk you
cannot bank on planning not to be caught out sometimes as the weather can
change in a matter of an hour or two and the forecasts cover a general area
within which local conditions can vary quite a bit.

Missing Sailors
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

You don't have to use a hank on actually. They do make storm sails that
fit around a furled jib. But, underneath the aluminum roller is the
headstay. It's not that hard to remove if you have enough time.

I don't know what you mean. My roller is a solid tube with the wire inside
it and it is upwards of 45 feet long so removing it is not an option. If
you can somehow remove your roller where are you going to stow it?

You're right. I was thinking about something else.


And, you don't need a
jib to sail. You can sail under greatly reduced main (e.g., 3rd reef or
storm main).

yes, of course. That is why a roller beats hanked on sails. You do not
have to go forward and mess with flogging sailcloth in bad conditions.
This is where 'Wilbur' has not thought it through. By the time you have
removed the sheets to another sail and then unhanked it the sail is
completely free to wash overboard if conditions are bad. He thinks he can
bag it up on the deck!

Well, what can you say... Neal doesn't sail much or at all.

snip

I've never had to put the furling line on a winch... even on a 60 ft
boat... Chances are good that you may roll it too tightly, and thus it
won't go all the way.

One does not normally have to use the winch but in any case the winch has
nothing to do with how tight it rolls. This depends on the tension you
keep on the sheets while rolling. You need some tension to get a neat roll
but you certainly do not need to hold the sheets so tight that you need a
winch to fight the strain. But a self-tailing winch makes the job much
easier if you are one person doing both jobs.

Well, that true, but if you have to use a winch, the sail is under a lot of
tension, which means it may roll up so tight as to go all the way in. I
barely have any tension on the sheet. If there's lots of tension on the
sail, I try to blanket the jib as much as possible with the main.

If you think that going onto the foredeck in a storm and unhanking one
sail, getting it down the forehatch, and replacing it with another which
you fetch up through the open hatch is a good option I can confidently
assert that you have never been out in a storm with only one other
crewmember.

Never said I did nor would I do such a thing. That's called bad planning.

Don't know anything about conditions on the US West coast but around Uk
you cannot bank on planning not to be caught out sometimes as the weather
can change in a matter of an hour or two and the forecasts cover a general
area within which local conditions can vary quite a bit.

Here, if you want a change in weather, wait 5 minutes.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Missing Sailors
 

On May 14, 11:15 am, Joe wrote:
On May 14, 9:50 am, katy wrote:

Bart wrote:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0507/422839.html

According to the family, the skipper of the boat was a careful and
experienced sailor...that storm was wicked..must have been horrible out
by Lookout...we were out at the Bay on the previous day and the wind was
enough to blow you over and the surf was huge and pounding...

The boat had a roller furling main, and jib. I bet they were un-
managable.

You have a point Joe. There was another rescue in the same storm
that
indicated a sail on this other boat could not lowered. I suspect that
it
was in-mast furling.

In mast furling can be a problem in moderate conditions. I had one
stuck on me and it was a PITA to clear it.

In boom or slab reefing (my preference) is the way to go.

For a genoa or jib, roller furling is a real plus. But one must also
consider the time to remove such sails is before the winds get too
extreme. That can be a hard call to make.

Missing Sailors
 

Let's hope they are still in a raft and get picked up soon.

Now I agree with you there.... hoping for the best.

DSK


Two licensed Captains aboard and two young women.
It would be a sad loss.

I hope they get picked up soon. One of the guys was
local to my area.

Missing Sailors
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
message ...
. All one
needs to do to change sails is to lower the working jib,
unsnap the
tack, snap on the storm jib tack, snap the halyard off the
jib and onto
the head of the storm sail, untie and transfer the sheets,
stuff the jib
into the bag and unclip the working jib hanks. Then snap
on the storm
jib hanks and haul away on the halyard and you're done.

That sounds like an awful lot of work. All I have to do is
pull on the roller line, from the safety of my cockpit.

Scotty