Guns outlawed in Japan
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:44:54 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


Gotta start somewhere.

Jon made the same point about slavery. I asked him if he was willing to
see
the country enter a period of civil war with hundreds of thousands dead,
infrastructure destroyed, and an economy in the toilet for decades in
order
to grab guns and save a few dozen lives each year. So far no answer.

Max


It's far more than a few dozen, Every year in the US more than 30,000
are killed by guns in murders, suicides and accidents, over 65,000 are
injured.

I'd think it's worth looking at.

Gun control, as proposed by its advocates might result in saving a few dozen
lives each year. The vast majority of gun deaths in this country are
inner-city gangs and thugs shooting each other. Look it up.

Gun control laws will have no effect on the inner city gangs. They possess
their guns illegally as it is. Washington DC has the toughest gun control
laws in the country. It also is perennially a leader in gun deaths.

Max

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

* Maxprop wrote, On 4/18/2007 7:10 PM:
It's far more than a few dozen, Every year in the US more than 30,000
are killed by guns in murders, suicides and accidents, over 65,000 are
injured.

I'd think it's worth looking at.

Gun control, as proposed by its advocates might result in saving a few dozen
lives each year. The vast majority of gun deaths in this country are
inner-city gangs and thugs shooting each other. Look it up.

It looks like you're taking stupid lessons from Joe. You should
really look at the stats sometime. First of all, half of the gun
deaths are from suicide, and the suicide rate in inner cities is
actually quite low. However, I appreciate that those against gun
control assume that anyone who would commit suicide by gun would find
another way, but that another debate, so I'll move on.

Although the large cities certainly have more than their share of
murder, almost half of all homicides are in communities under 100,000
population, a full third in communities under 50,000.

There were a lot a family murders - over 1800 were in the immediate
family, plus 600 boy/girlfriends. Also, there were 400 fiends and
neighbors.

Or looking at it another way, 2000 of the victims were women who were
not likely to be gang members.

Several thousand were murders during a felony, half of those
robberies. And the largest category is "arguments."

When all are tallied, it turns out that of 14,860 homicides in 2005,
only 754 were considered "Juvenile gang killings" and another 96 were
"Gangland." You can argue that there are large number of "not
specified" and "unknown," but there's no way you can jiggle the
numbers such that the "vast majority" are inner-city gangs.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offens...rtable_09.html


Gun control laws will have no effect on the inner city gangs. They possess
their guns illegally as it is.

True. Here in Boston, when the gang's arsenal runs low, they take a
road trip to VA or NC.

Washington DC has the toughest gun control
laws in the country. It also is perennially a leader in gun deaths.

True. They only have to take a subway ride to buy a gun.

Here's a question for you: if guns aren't used outside of inner
cities, why does everyone out of the cities need a gun for protection?

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

OzOne wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:44:54 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


Gotta start somewhere.

Jon made the same point about slavery. I asked him if he was willing to see
the country enter a period of civil war with hundreds of thousands dead,
infrastructure destroyed, and an economy in the toilet for decades in order
to grab guns and save a few dozen lives each year. So far no answer.

Max


It's far more than a few dozen, Every year in the US more than 30,000
are killed by guns in murders, suicides and accidents, over 65,000 are
injured.

I'd think it's worth looking at.

Are you assuming that murder rates in the USA would drop if gun laws were a
lot tighter?

You're dreaming. Didn't happen in Australia and we're a *lot* less violent as
a cultural group than the USA.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...der-rate/2006/
10/23/1161455665717.html


All that happened was a substitution of implement. If you have a hate/fear
reaction to guns, you're probably happy. However, the stats show that people
are getting murdered just the same. Doubt it makes any difference to them.

Always keep in mind what you're actually trying to achieve. For people like
you, it seems that murders by other means don't count as long as the gun
related murders drop. For myself, I look at the overall figures and if there's
no change, its obvious that availability of guns per se aren't making a
difference. But then I understand statistics and it's obvious that you either
don't or won't.

I'm a pragmatist. If it was possible to eliminate all firearms (including from
the police/military), perhaps it would be worth it. Since it patently isn't
possible, why are we even trying? Like the War on Drugs - a great waste of
time & money with zero chance of achieving the stated outcome. There's an
unstated assumption by people like you (see above) that a drop in firearms
will result in a drop in murders etc. That's wrong straight off. Secondly,
*even if it were true*, how do you achieve the drop in ownership and how much
are you prepared to pay to do it, in terms of money, curtailment of civil
liberties, etc? IOW, how much do you personally think we should pay to
eliminate firearms from a community? Random street searches? House searches
without warrant? Registration of and restrictions on ownership of lathes,
milling machines, tool steel, lead, other metals? How about electricity,
aluminium and plastics? http://www.lindsaybks.com - Gingery books on building
a metal foundry, basic lathe, shaper, drill press & milling machine basically
from scrap.

The genie got out of the bottle a long time ago and it's not possible to put
it back in again. The idiots on the Right have their unachievable war on
drugs. You have the analog war on guns.

I'll listen closely to any proposal that has a chance of succeeding. Until you
can ban steel, machine tools and common chemicals, you can't prevent people
owning firearms. Last time I raised this all you did was metaphorically wave
your hands and say that crims would always get guns. Duh. So what are you
trying to achieve? The absolute *best* you can hope for is a society where the
only 3 groups with firearms are the military, police and criminals (with
little difference between the last 2, in Australia). Wonderful. To get this,
you'd need to completely alter society and I strongly doubt you'd like the
result. People like me, no probs. I'd be in one of the intelligence or defence
materiels type organisations.

Think I'll get my Tasmanian gun licence to go along with my NSW one. I just
bought a new milling machine on Ebay, BTW. Less than $1K AUD. Now I have 3
mills & 3 lathes scattered over 2 states.

PDW - who's had his hands on a loaded 50 cal BMG mounted on a ship in a
capital city port. Nobody was afraid.

Now, I'm off to dry dock. This has been a very busy season, the off season is
going to be worse, and I'll be heading south again in August. Don't expect me
to spend much time here.... especially given that you never come up with
anything on point as to what you'd actually like to see as an outcome. Is it a
drop in murders, assaults etc overall, or is it merely the elimination of
firearms as an end in itself? Statistically, B != A. Pity you & Jon seem
incapable of understanding that.

It's dead easy to throw rocks at the USA WRT firearms abuse, Oz. Pointless,
but easy. The 1996 firearms laws in Australia made zero difference to the
overall murder rate. Can't see why you'd assume that similar laws in the USA
would have a better outcome. Don't care enough to stick around and follow the
red herrings I'm sure will be next so.... ciao. Maybe someone else will bother
- which is why I've x-posted my reply.

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

On Apr 18, 9:14 pm, PDW wrote:

You're dreaming. Didn't happen in Australia and we're a *lot* less violent as
a cultural group than the USA.

Jeff makes it clear he had no need to think about protecting his
family from one of Boston many armed gangs. Infact he could care less
about keeping his family safe.

Just look at the dangerious cat he sails. Sad sacks like Jeff are
under the illusion that only other people cats flip over all the time,
and when his does the USCG will save his sorry ass.

He also thinks the gun toting thugs are never ever going break into
his house and kill him before the cops can come and save him and his
family.

Besides, he'd leave a loaded gun out for the kids to play with, so
don't encourage him..

Joe

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article .net,
Maxprop wrote:
The feasibility of disarming 128 million citizens is radically different
than doing so with 3 billion folks. That said, people still get shot and
killed by gun-wielding wackos in Japan.

Ummm... 300 million, not 3 billion in the US last time I counted.

Right. It only seems like three billion when in the Bay Area. g

Suggestion... stay out the Castro district.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article .net,
Maxprop wrote:
The feasibility of disarming 128 million citizens is radically different
than doing so with 3 billion folks. That said, people still get shot
and
killed by gun-wielding wackos in Japan.

Ummm... 300 million, not 3 billion in the US last time I counted.

Right. It only seems like three billion when in the Bay Area. g

Suggestion... stay out the Castro district.

Not to worry. If I drop something there, I let it lay. g

Max

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

Maxprop wrote:

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote: They
can sleep well at night with the deluded belief that they did something
"good."


Well, that sounds a lot better than going to sleep with the abysmally
apathetic defeatist attitude that nothing can be done.

I never implied nothing can be done. The answers have been her all along.
So have some worthwhile laws, if only they'd be enforced instead of plea
bargained away every time a shooter goes to court.

I think that's just another right wing fallacy, "We need to lock more
people up for longer!" The US already incarcerates something on the
order of one quarter of the total of all people incarcerated on the
planet. You have 2,320,000 in jails and prisons, include parolees and
probationers and the total correctional population is over 7,000,000!
You lead the world in incarceration rate, 701 per 100,000, China is down
at 117 with 1.51 million behind bars. These statistics are actually
somewhat misleading as the rate of violent crime (homicide, rape,
robbery and assault) have been *declining* steadily since 1993. Most of
these folks (in the US that is) are there because of "The War On Drugs".

Perhaps the violent crime is declining because so many of those who
would commit the crimes to obtain money for the drugs are in the
slammer?

Cheers
Marty

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

* Joe wrote, On 4/18/2007 10:40 PM:
On Apr 18, 9:14 pm, PDW wrote:

You're dreaming. Didn't happen in Australia and we're a *lot* less violent as
a cultural group than the USA.

Jeff makes it clear he had no need to think about protecting his
family from one of Boston many armed gangs. Infact he could care less
about keeping his family safe.

Now I understand why Joe keeps repeating any deranged nonsense he
finds on the internet. He actually lives in a fantasy land. His is a
dark world, where roving street gangs terrorize suburban
neighborhoods, looking for liberal bumper stickers as markers of an
unarmed household.

Truth is, I live in the "Safest City in the Country." IIRC, the last
murder we had was the infamous "Au Pair" murder about 10 years ago.



Just look at the dangerious cat he sails. Sad sacks like Jeff are
under the illusion that only other people cats flip over all the time,
and when his does the USCG will save his sorry ass.

Yes, last year alone, three times, a gang of roving sea serpents
capsized my cat while we were moored in Vineyard Haven. I hate it
when that happens.

He also thinks the gun toting thugs are never ever going break into
his house and kill him before the cops can come and save him and his
family.

The statistics are pretty clear that having a gun in the house makes
it more dangerous.


Besides, he'd leave a loaded gun out for the kids to play with, so
don't encourage him..

It wouldn't happen in my house. However, from 2000 to 2004, 1400 kids
13 years old or younger died from firearms. Does that make you feel
safer, Joe?

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

" I don't recall.


don't you know how to Google?

Guns outlawed in Japan
 

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote: They
can sleep well at night with the deluded belief that
they did something
"good."


Well, that sounds a lot better than going to sleep with
the abysmally
apathetic defeatist attitude that nothing can be done.


But not near as good as going to bed with a Colt .45 under
your pillow.



Happiness Is A Warm Gun....

Scotty