Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

imported by sailboat


St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.

The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.

Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/p...703050344/1051

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ps.com...
imported by sailboat


St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.

The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.

Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.


http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/p...703050344/1051

They will still have to pay a crew modern wages and conditions so are
unlikely to make any profit unless they always get a fair wind

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ps.com...
imported by sailboat


St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.

The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.

Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/p...703050344/1051



Here's a pic...

http://www.culturechange.org/cms/ind...95&Itemi d=41


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 5, 1:41 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ps.com...



imported by sailboat

St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.

The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.

Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/p...=/20070305/NEW...

They will still have to pay a crew modern wages and conditions so are
unlikely to make any profit unless they always get a fair wind- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The snob nosed ass gas sniffers will pay a premium to serve coffee
that's truly green, and delivered on a green ship.
It's like the people who eat coffee that cats **** out.

I think it's a brilliant marketing ploy and good for the sailing
community as a whole. I'm sure it will be a motor sailing vessel so it
can adhere to schedules and avoid spoilage.

Joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 5, 2:44 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ps.com...





imported by sailboat

St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.

The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.

Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/p...=/20070305/NEW...

Here's a pic...

http://www.culturechange.org/cms/ind...ontent&task=vi...

--
"j" ganz - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

20 tonnes of cargo seems a bit much for her. But at 12 dollars a pound
I see's 200K profit per trip.

Joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.


Heh- so they are going to use all organic materials in the schooner?
Cotton sails, etc etc? It will be a very very expensive hobby to keep
her sailing at all, and buying/shipping those "all natural materials"
will use more fossil fuel than using dacron & fiberglass.


The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.


In other words, he expects to charge a lot more for his "organically
imported" coffee.


Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."


But notice he doesn't mention any numbers.

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.



"Edgar" wrote:
They will still have to pay a crew modern wages and conditions so are
unlikely to make any profit unless they always get a fair wind

Yep

Plus they will spend a lot more time being refitted and paying the
amortization on the cost of the vessel & her equipment, on the profits
what few voyages she can complete within the given time period.

If shipping under sail could pay, then the big companies would do it.
They would work out much more efficient & less labor intensive ways to
propel the boat. I happen to like the kite sail idea myself, but have
not heard of any ships using it on voyages.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

Think they will start running slaves too?

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
...
Think they will start running slaves again?


Yes, from Iraq.

Scotty

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 5, 6:29 pm, wrote:
St. Marys, Ga. | The two-masted schooner, called the, used to be a
tour craft.

Now a company is refitting it in St. Marys to import organically grown
coffee from Central America in an environmentally friendly manner.

Heh- so they are going to use all organic materials in the schooner?
Cotton sails, etc etc? It will be a very very expensive hobby to keep
her sailing at all, and buying/shipping those "all natural materials"
will use more fossil fuel than using dacron & fiberglass.

Why not use dacron, you do not have to disclose that on your
advertising. The tree hugger will look at that bag of coffee with a
sailing ship on the wrapper and feel good, like all the feel good TV
commericals using sailboats to sell everything from tampons to
retirement funds.


The company - Blue & Green Packet Co. - also wants to import other
goods, including textiles, chocolate, nuts, beans, rice and tea.

The ship won't have the capability to carry nearly as much cargo as
modern vessels but can haul up to 70 tons. The average voyage will be
about three weeks but using the ship's sails will greatly reduce the
importing costs.

"The point is to prove it can be done," said John Siman, one of the
company's owners. "We can still trade commodities via sail."

He said there's a growing demand for products that are organically
produced and are imported in a way that has as little negative impact
to the environment as possible.

In other words, he expects to charge a lot more for his "organically
imported" coffee.


EXACTLY i found several site that sell organic coffee, it goes for 12
bucks a pound. Since this is super dupper way cooler green dude, it
worth 15 a pound. Come on Doug...get with the program. The only
advantage is the small cargo ship VS the evil oil empire.

Rising shipping costs for imported goods should mean importing by sail
will be a profitable venture, said Paul Flowers, another company
owner.

"The price of oil will continue to go up," he said. "At the same time,
container-ship shipping becomes more and more unaffordable. It's a
huge cost difference."

But notice he doesn't mention any numbers.


Numbers sumbers...Do the math Doug. A crew of 3 4-5 trips a year.

The schooner will be renamed Emancipator after renovations are
completed in about a year.

"Edgar" wrote:
They will still have to pay a crew modern wages and conditions so are
unlikely to make any profit unless they always get a fair wind

Yep

Plus they will spend a lot more time being refitted and paying the
amortization on the cost of the vessel & her equipment, on the profits
what few voyages she can complete within the given time period.

Houston to Peru & back.... 8 weeks.

If shipping under sail could pay, then the big companies would do it.

Not so. Why play with nickles and dimes when you are raking in the big
bucks.


They would work out much more efficient & less labor intensive ways to
propel the boat. I happen to like the kite sail idea myself, but have
not heard of any ships using it on voyages.

You engineers types can screw up anything. We have the current tech
to be profitabe is the cargo is right.

Joe


Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

Joe,

Why don't you call Starbucks and see how much they will pay for a few bales
of coffee run in a sailboat. Just think you could load up our boat and
you're in business.

Amen!

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

20 tonnes of cargo seems a bit much for her. But at 12 dollars a pound
I see's 200K profit per trip.

That much? I'm just curious how you came to those numbers. It seems
that a small coffee company could do quite well with much profit. If
they make say 4 trips a year and get a good loyal following they could
have a nice year. I have heard of people that really like coffee
buying it from special Hawaiian distributors and paying something like
15-20 a pound. As long as its good coffee I don't see how this could
be such a bad idea.

Bill

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 6, 4:49 pm, "Bob Crantz" wrote:
Joe,

Why don't you call Starbucks and see how much they will pay for a few bales
of coffee run in a sailboat. Just think you could load up our boat and
you're in business.

Amen!

Screw that, insert another mast and a 20'X12' cargo bay amidship
RedCloud and launch a web-site, blog, ect catering to the Greenies.

Just take a picture of a group of sailors in tie dye T shirts with
long hair sipping coffee, sell it all mail-order. Why give Starbucks a
slice? Starbucks has become the man, liberal and greenies hate the
man. Hype the green side of sail delivered coffee not tainted by the
evil oil companies and war mongers.

Would you like to invest?

http://www.koacoffee.com/organic.html 30 dollars + a pound

http://www.motherearthcoffeetea.com/...ea-Coffee.aspx
15 - a pound

You can find a many, but all tainted by evil oil...delivered in
pollution emitting vessels fouling the flavor and true aroma while
murdering dolphins and other sea critters.

Joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 6, 5:05 pm, "Bill" wrote:
20 tonnes of cargo seems a bit much for her. But at 12 dollars a pound
I see's 200K profit per trip.

That much? I'm just curious how you came to those numbers. It seems
that a small coffee company could do quite well with much profit. If
they make say 4 trips a year and get a good loyal following they could
have a nice year. I have heard of people that really like coffee
buying it from special Hawaiian distributors and paying something like
15-20 a pound. As long as its good coffee I don't see how this could
be such a bad idea.

Bill

Ok 20 US tons of coffee = 40,000 pounds.

40,000 X 12 dollars a pound = 480,000 dollars retail

X 6 trips a year = 2,880,000.00

Crew 150K yr including food
Insurance 30K yr
Coffee investment 600K-800K (looking at a futures mkt, better to cut a
deal with a grower)
Boat maintance 10-20K yr
Pkg & Sales shipping facility 75K
Fuel 3000
Coffee roasting ect?

We will just round it off a 1.4 million operating expenses

That leaves 1,450,000.00 profit, or at 6 trips a year 241,666.66
profit a trip.

Would you like to invest ;0) ?

Joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

Ok 20 US tons of coffee = 40,000 pounds.

40,000 X 12 dollars a pound = 480,000 dollars retail

X 6 trips a year = 2,880,000.00

Crew 150K yr including food
Insurance 30K yr
Coffee investment 600K-800K (looking at a futures mkt, better to cut a
deal with a grower)
Boat maintance 10-20K yr
Pkg & Sales shipping facility 75K
Fuel 3000
Coffee roasting ect?

We will just round it off a 1.4 million operating expenses

That leaves 1,450,000.00 profit, or at 6 trips a year 241,666.66
profit a trip.

Would you like to invest ;0) ?

Joe

Do you think they could make 6 trips a year? I mean even without it
they seem to be able to make a profit. I think they could get more
than $12 a pound if the coffee is good. at least $15. That makes the
profit much higher. 400K per trip because the other expenses stay the
same. If they went that way I might buy a few shares in the company.
I'm an environmentalist but I wouldn't mind some good returns on the
investment either. It just depends on if the company can pull this
off.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

You're quoting retail "street price" for the commodity you're shipping
in bulk. That makes no sense at all.

Coffee that sells for $10 a pound roasted up here goes for $2 a pound
unroasted, in 1320 lb pallets delivered here in New England. In
Central/South America that would be $1 a pound or less. Essentially,
the price doubles every time it passes through a hand or is processed.

Even though I buy in small lots, 2 to 5 pounds, because I buy
unroasted green bean I pay only half of the "street price." For
instance, I just bought Kona direct from the farmer for $13/lb
delivered. When I buy from a small lot distributer he's making a 100%
markup, as did the broker that sold to him.

BTW, the "organic coffee" market is a bit of a scam. Most small
farmers are close to being organic because they do not typically use
significant amounts of chemicals. They simply can't afford them, and
they are willing to do the manual work to properly manage the farm.
However, they are financially unable to take the fields out of
production for the three years to be certified organic. However,
large investors can clearcut a rain forest, usually in Peru, and have
it declared organic because is it virgin soil. The quality is not
particularly good. If you buy "Organic Blend" it means there is a
small amount of quality beans to give it some flavor, but the bulk is
low quality grown in a clear cut rain forest.



* Joe wrote, On 3/6/2007 7:03 PM:
On Mar 6, 5:05 pm, "Bill" wrote:
20 tonnes of cargo seems a bit much for her. But at 12 dollars a pound
I see's 200K profit per trip.
That much? I'm just curious how you came to those numbers. It seems
that a small coffee company could do quite well with much profit. If
they make say 4 trips a year and get a good loyal following they could
have a nice year. I have heard of people that really like coffee
buying it from special Hawaiian distributors and paying something like
15-20 a pound. As long as its good coffee I don't see how this could
be such a bad idea.

Bill

Ok 20 US tons of coffee = 40,000 pounds.

40,000 X 12 dollars a pound = 480,000 dollars retail

X 6 trips a year = 2,880,000.00

Crew 150K yr including food
Insurance 30K yr
Coffee investment 600K-800K (looking at a futures mkt, better to cut a
deal with a grower)
Boat maintance 10-20K yr
Pkg & Sales shipping facility 75K
Fuel 3000
Coffee roasting ect?

We will just round it off a 1.4 million operating expenses

That leaves 1,450,000.00 profit, or at 6 trips a year 241,666.66
profit a trip.

Would you like to invest ;0) ?

Joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

* Bill wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:09 PM:
....

Do you think they could make 6 trips a year? I mean even without it
they seem to be able to make a profit. I think they could get more
than $12 a pound if the coffee is good. at least $15. That makes the
profit much higher. 400K per trip because the other expenses stay the
same. If they went that way I might buy a few shares in the company.
I'm an environmentalist but I wouldn't mind some good returns on the
investment either. It just depends on if the company can pull this
off.

In that's the case, I have a bridge you might be interested in. Its,
uh, organic, of course.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 6, 7:12 pm, Jeff wrote:
You're quoting retail "street price" for the commodity you're shipping
in bulk. That makes no sense at all.

It makes sence if you are also the roaster, retailer. That what makes
it work.

Notice I alloted 75K for the facility and a couple workers a year,
that may be low, maybe not.

We have a burger joint here at my dock that has failed as a resturant
5-6 times.
It would make a perfect processing pkg facility, dock the boat right
next to it.

Coffee that sells for $10 a pound roasted up here goes for $2 a pound
unroasted, in 1320 lb pallets delivered here in New England. In
Central/South America that would be $1 a pound or less. Essentially,
the price doubles every time it passes through a hand or is processed.

I just looked at the commodies market an Coffee sells bulk for around
1.00 a pound.


Even though I buy in small lots, 2 to 5 pounds, because I buy
unroasted green bean I pay only half of the "street price." For
instance, I just bought Kona direct from the farmer for $13/lb
delivered. When I buy from a small lot distributer he's making a 100%
markup, as did the broker that sold to him.

With the internet, and modern marketing ways ... you can cut them out
of the picture

BTW, the "organic coffee" market is a bit of a scam. Most small
farmers are close to being organic because they do not typically use
significant amounts of chemicals. They simply can't afford them, and
they are willing to do the manual work to properly manage the farm.
However, they are financially unable to take the fields out of
production for the three years to be certified organic. However,
large investors can clearcut a rain forest, usually in Peru, and have
it declared organic because is it virgin soil. The quality is not
particularly good. If you buy "Organic Blend" it means there is a
small amount of quality beans to give it some flavor, but the bulk is
low quality grown in a clear cut rain forest.

I would make arrangements to purchace product from an outfit like
this: http://www.ecologicfinance.org/index.html

Joe

* Joe wrote, On 3/6/2007 7:03 PM:



On Mar 6, 5:05 pm, "Bill" wrote:
20 tonnes of cargo seems a bit much for her. But at 12 dollars a pound
I see's 200K profit per trip.
That much? I'm just curious how you came to those numbers. It seems
that a small coffee company could do quite well with much profit. If
they make say 4 trips a year and get a good loyal following they could
have a nice year. I have heard of people that really like coffee
buying it from special Hawaiian distributors and paying something like
15-20 a pound. As long as its good coffee I don't see how this could
be such a bad idea.

Bill

Ok 20 US tons of coffee = 40,000 pounds.

40,000 X 12 dollars a pound = 480,000 dollars retail

X 6 trips a year = 2,880,000.00

Crew 150K yr including food
Insurance 30K yr
Coffee investment 600K-800K (looking at a futures mkt, better to cut a
deal with a grower)
Boat maintance 10-20K yr
Pkg & Sales shipping facility 75K
Fuel 3000
Coffee roasting ect?

We will just round it off a 1.4 million operating expenses

That leaves 1,450,000.00 profit, or at 6 trips a year 241,666.66
profit a trip.

Would you like to invest ;0) ?

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

In that's the case, I have a bridge you might be interested in. Its,
uh, organic, of course.

Hey I said if they could pull this off. If they can then great I'm
all for making a profit but it is never quite that simple now is it?
I don't drink coffee anyways. Someone is trying to do this so I guess
we will see if it works. If one company can pull it off maybe it will
be more popular in the future. Maybe the age of sail V 2.0 will be at
hand. You never know.

Bill

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 6, 7:09 pm, "Bill" wrote:
Ok 20 US tons of coffee = 40,000 pounds.

40,000 X 12 dollars a pound = 480,000 dollars retail

X 6 trips a year = 2,880,000.00

Crew 150K yr including food
Insurance 30K yr
Coffee investment 600K-800K (looking at a futures mkt, better to cut a
deal with a grower)
Boat maintance 10-20K yr
Pkg & Sales shipping facility 75K
Fuel 3000
Coffee roasting ect?

We will just round it off a 1.4 million operating expenses

That leaves 1,450,000.00 profit, or at 6 trips a year 241,666.66
profit a trip.

Would you like to invest ;0) ?

Joe

Do you think they could make 6 trips a year?

Easy. 2000 miles from Houston to Colombia , average just 100 miles a
day or 5 kts and you have 10 days to load and offload per mo.

I mean even without it
they seem to be able to make a profit. I think they could get more
than $12 a pound if the coffee is good. at least $15. That makes the
profit much higher. 400K per trip because the other expenses stay the
same. If they went that way I might buy a few shares in the company.

I've learned to plan for the worst and fight for the best.

I'm an environmentalist but I wouldn't mind some good returns on the
investment either. It just depends on if the company can pull this
off.

I just like money and sailing and coffee.

Joe


- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

* Joe wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:35 PM:
On Mar 6, 7:12 pm, Jeff wrote:
You're quoting retail "street price" for the commodity you're shipping
in bulk. That makes no sense at all.

It makes sence if you are also the roaster, retailer. That what makes
it work.

Lipton was able to create a vertically integrated tea business, but it
doesn't work very well for coffee, especially on a small scale. The
goal of the small specialty shops is to always have the highest
quality, which means constantly shifting suppliers.


Notice I alloted 75K for the facility and a couple workers a year,
that may be low, maybe not.

We have a burger joint here at my dock that has failed as a resturant
5-6 times.
It would make a perfect processing pkg facility, dock the boat right
next to it.
Coffee that sells for $10 a pound roasted up here goes for $2 a pound
unroasted, in 1320 lb pallets delivered here in New England. In
Central/South America that would be $1 a pound or less. Essentially,
the price doubles every time it passes through a hand or is processed.

I just looked at the commodies market an Coffee sells bulk for around
1.00 a pound.

That would be in container loads. Most high quality farmers don't
come close to that amount in a year, so you're limiting yourself to
low quality beans, suitable for Maxwell House and Starbucks.


BTW, I posted the following 5 years ago; I guess its time again:

In the old days, of course, coffee was transported by sailing ship.
The long voyage from the Dutch East Indies would have a natural
sweating" affect on the coffee in the hold. As a result, the coffee
turned a rare shade of brown that brought a premium at auction. It
was believed that it greatly improved the flavor and body. Captains
that brought in "extra brown" were given a bonus. Coffee brought by
sail was termed "ex-sailing ships."

Unlike tea, where there was a premium for fast voyages, coffee usually
traveled on slow ships. The Dutch style was favored - they were
described by one writer as "a hundred feet long, a hundred feet wide,
and a hundred feet high. Sometimes she sailed forwards, sometimes
backwards, and sometimes sideways. After dark, the lights were put
out, all sail was taken in, and all hands turned in for the night."
Towards the end of this era the Dutch ships were largely replaced by
Norwegian vessels.

After the turn of the century, there were attempts to duplicate the
browning process by steam heating coffee brought in by steamships.
The Pure Food authorities got involved, and the demand for brown
coffee fell off. The last coffee-carrying sailing ship to dock in New
York was on Christmas Day, 1914.

reference - "All About Coffee" by William H. Ukers 2nd ed. 1935

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 6, 8:36 pm, Jeff wrote:
* Joe wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:35 PM:

On Mar 6, 7:12 pm, Jeff wrote:
You're quoting retail "street price" for the commodity you're shipping
in bulk. That makes no sense at all.

It makes sence if you are also the roaster, retailer. That what makes
it work.

Lipton was able to create a vertically integrated tea business, but it
doesn't work very well for coffee, especially on a small scale. The
goal of the small specialty shops is to always have the highest
quality, which means constantly shifting suppliers.

That's OK follow the good coffee in S. America's east coast



Notice I alloted 75K for the facility and a couple workers a year,
that may be low, maybe not.

We have a burger joint here at my dock that has failed as a resturant
5-6 times.
It would make a perfect processing pkg facility, dock the boat right
next to it.
Coffee that sells for $10 a pound roasted up here goes for $2 a pound
unroasted, in 1320 lb pallets delivered here in New England. In
Central/South America that would be $1 a pound or less. Essentially,
the price doubles every time it passes through a hand or is processed.

I just looked at the commodies market an Coffee sells bulk for around
1.00 a pound.

That would be in container loads. Most high quality farmers don't
come close to that amount in a year, so you're limiting yourself to
low quality beans, suitable for Maxwell House and Starbucks.

If you check my figures I alloted 800K for coffee investment giving me
over 5 bucks a pound to pay the grower...Thats 10 time the average
price they get, with that kind of jack, you could source the best.


BTW, I posted the following 5 years ago; I guess its time again:

In the old days, of course, coffee was transported by sailing ship.
The long voyage from the Dutch East Indies would have a natural
sweating" affect on the coffee in the hold. As a result, the coffee
turned a rare shade of brown that brought a premium at auction. It
was believed that it greatly improved the flavor and body. Captains
that brought in "extra brown" were given a bonus. Coffee brought by
sail was termed "ex-sailing ships."

Unlike tea, where there was a premium for fast voyages, coffee usually
traveled on slow ships. The Dutch style was favored - they were
described by one writer as "a hundred feet long, a hundred feet wide,
and a hundred feet high. Sometimes she sailed forwards, sometimes
backwards, and sometimes sideways. After dark, the lights were put
out, all sail was taken in, and all hands turned in for the night."
Towards the end of this era the Dutch ships were largely replaced by
Norwegian vessels.

After the turn of the century, there were attempts to duplicate the
browning process by steam heating coffee brought in by steamships.
The Pure Food authorities got involved, and the demand for brown
coffee fell off. The last coffee-carrying sailing ship to dock in New
York was on Christmas Day, 1914.

reference - "All About Coffee" by William H. Ukers 2nd ed. 1935

Thanks thats good info.

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 6, 10:04 pm, "Joe" wrote:
On Mar 6, 8:36 pm, Jeff wrote:

* Joe wrote, On 3/6/2007 8:35 PM:

On Mar 6, 7:12 pm, Jeff wrote:
You're quoting retail "street price" for the commodity you're shipping
in bulk. That makes no sense at all.

It makes sence if you are also the roaster, retailer. That what makes
it work.

Lipton was able to create a vertically integrated tea business, but it
doesn't work very well for coffee, especially on a small scale. The
goal of the small specialty shops is to always have the highest
quality, which means constantly shifting suppliers.

That's OK follow the good coffee in S. America's east coast





Notice I alloted 75K for the facility and a couple workers a year,
that may be low, maybe not.

We have a burger joint here at my dock that has failed as a resturant
5-6 times.
It would make a perfect processing pkg facility, dock the boat right
next to it.
Coffee that sells for $10 a pound roasted up here goes for $2 a pound
unroasted, in 1320 lb pallets delivered here in New England. In
Central/South America that would be $1 a pound or less. Essentially,
the price doubles every time it passes through a hand or is processed.

I just looked at the commodies market an Coffee sells bulk for around
1.00 a pound.

That would be in container loads. Most high quality farmers don't
come close to that amount in a year, so you're limiting yourself to
low quality beans, suitable for Maxwell House and Starbucks.

If you check my figures I alloted 800K for coffee investment giving me
over 5 bucks a pound to pay the grower...Thats 10 time the average
price they get, with that kind of jack, you could source the best.





BTW, I posted the following 5 years ago; I guess its time again:

In the old days, of course, coffee was transported by sailing ship.
The long voyage from the Dutch East Indies would have a natural
sweating" affect on the coffee in the hold. As a result, the coffee
turned a rare shade of brown that brought a premium at auction. It
was believed that it greatly improved the flavor and body. Captains
that brought in "extra brown" were given a bonus. Coffee brought by
sail was termed "ex-sailing ships."

Unlike tea, where there was a premium for fast voyages, coffee usually
traveled on slow ships. The Dutch style was favored - they were
described by one writer as "a hundred feet long, a hundred feet wide,
and a hundred feet high. Sometimes she sailed forwards, sometimes
backwards, and sometimes sideways. After dark, the lights were put
out, all sail was taken in, and all hands turned in for the night."
Towards the end of this era the Dutch ships were largely replaced by
Norwegian vessels.

After the turn of the century, there were attempts to duplicate the
browning process by steam heating coffee brought in by steamships.
The Pure Food authorities got involved, and the demand for brown
coffee fell off. The last coffee-carrying sailing ship to dock in New
York was on Christmas Day, 1914.

reference - "All About Coffee" by William H. Ukers 2nd ed. 1935

Thanks thats good info.

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

OK, what will REALLY be in those bags of coffee? Coffee smell masking
something from the dogs, I'd say square grouper fer sure.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic foot?

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic
foot?

If you can't cram anything into a square foot there would be no such
thing as a square foot full of light. All square feet would be too dark
to see. So you have made an incorrect statement.

Wilbur Hubbard

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

On Mar 7, 3:45 am, "Edgar" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ups.com...


How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic foot?

Yeah a cubic foot.

joe

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

* Joe wrote, On 3/7/2007 10:16 AM:
On Mar 7, 3:45 am, "Edgar" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ups.com...


How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.
Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?
Joe
You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic foot?

Yeah a cubic foot.

The specific gravity of loose green coffee beans (that is, not
roasted) is around 0.85. In other words, a cubic foot is about 50
pounds of coffee.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic
foot?

If you can't cram anything into a square foot there would be no such
thing as a square foot full of light. All square feet would be too dark
to see. So you have made an incorrect statement.

Wilbur Hubbard

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic
foot?

If you can't cram anything into a square foot there would be no such
thing as a square foot full of light. All square feet would be too dark
to see. So you have made an incorrect statement.

Wilbur Hubbard

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go into
something that only exists in two dimensions.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go into
something that only exists in two dimensions.



The concept of divergence (used in geometrical calculus) is a measure of any
type of flux crossing a surface as the enclosed volume goes to zero. As the
limit is taken, the enclosed volume shrinks to zero faster than the surface
area. The divergence is a measure of flux crossing a surface of zero
enclosed volume.

In the case of a beam of light entering an enclosed surface, the divergence
would be zero as the light source is external to the enclosed volume. The
total flux entering and leaving the surface (even if it is flat consider
both sides) is zero.

A sphere does exist in two dimensions, for instance in both angle and
radius. Only two dimensions needed to define the surface or volume. Not all
coordinate systems are cartesian or orthogonal.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet
of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic
foot?

If you can't cram anything into a square foot there would be no such
thing as a square foot full of light. All square feet would be too
dark
to see. So you have made an incorrect statement.

Wilbur Hubbard

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go into
something that only exists in two dimensions.

Wrong again, Edgar. A square exists in two-dimensions. A photon at rest
exists also only in two dimensions. It is only when a photon travels
that it exists in three dimensions. A photon in a square is not
traveling. It cannot travel in two dimensions. But it exists. Therefore
it is IN the square.
I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Capt RB" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go into
something that only exists in two dimensions.



The concept of divergence (used in geometrical calculus) is a measure of
any
type of flux crossing a surface as the enclosed volume goes to zero. As
the
limit is taken, the enclosed volume shrinks to zero faster than the
surface
area. The divergence is a measure of flux crossing a surface of zero
enclosed volume.

In the case of a beam of light entering an enclosed surface, the
divergence
would be zero as the light source is external to the enclosed volume. The
total flux entering and leaving the surface (even if it is flat consider
both sides) is zero.

A sphere does exist in two dimensions, for instance in both angle and
radius. Only two dimensions needed to define the surface or volume. Not
all
coordinate systems are cartesian or orthogonal.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Capt RB" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go into
something that only exists in two dimensions.



The concept of divergence (used in geometrical calculus) is a measure of
any
type of flux crossing a surface as the enclosed volume goes to zero. As
the
limit is taken, the enclosed volume shrinks to zero faster than the
surface
area. The divergence is a measure of flux crossing a surface of zero
enclosed volume.

In the case of a beam of light entering an enclosed surface, the
divergence
would be zero as the light source is external to the enclosed volume. The
total flux entering and leaving the surface (even if it is flat consider
both sides) is zero.

I said that in considerably fewer words...

A sphere does exist in two dimensions, for instance in both angle and
radius.

No , it does not exist in two dimensions since it is a solid shape and has
volume.

Only two dimensions needed to define the surface or volume.

No, that is not right. You only have to define one thing, namely the radius
of a sphere, not any angle, but the radius itself means nothing unless you
add to the definition the word _sphere_ , which is by definition a three
dimensional shape since the radius is not limited to just the x and y
coordinates.

Not all coordinate systems are cartesian or orthogonal

Can't comment on that. those two are enough for me..

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square feet
of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean cubic
foot?

If you can't cram anything into a square foot there would be no such
thing as a square foot full of light. All square feet would be too
dark
to see. So you have made an incorrect statement.

Wilbur Hubbard

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go into
something that only exists in two dimensions.

Wrong again, Edgar. A square exists in two-dimensions. A photon at rest
exists also only in two dimensions. It is only when a photon travels
that it exists in three dimensions. A photon in a square is not
traveling. It cannot travel in two dimensions. But it exists. Therefore
it is IN the square.
I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

No, you are wrong again by your own words.
The square exists. The photon exists. Both are two dimensional (I'll take
your word for that about the photon for the purpose of this discussion).
So as the photon lies there on the square everything is two dimensional and
there is no volume. So you still have nowhere to park something which has a
volume.

Sailing Cargo Ships making comeback maybe?...Thank the tree huggers
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

How much do you think a square foot of coffee weighs?
A 20' addition to Redcloud could carry just over 2000 square
feet
of
cargo.

Could you cram 20 pounds into a square foot?

Joe

You cannot cram anything _into_ a square foot. Do you mean
cubic
foot?

If you can't cram anything into a square foot there would be no
such
thing as a square foot full of light. All square feet would be too
dark
to see. So you have made an incorrect statement.

Wilbur Hubbard

No I haven't. You are confusing _into_ and _onto_.
Your beam of light only goes onto a square foot. Nothing can go
into
something that only exists in two dimensions.

Wrong again, Edgar. A square exists in two-dimensions. A photon at
rest
exists also only in two dimensions. It is only when a photon travels
that it exists in three dimensions. A photon in a square is not
traveling. It cannot travel in two dimensions. But it exists.
Therefore
it is IN the square.
I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

No, you are wrong again by your own words.
The square exists. The photon exists. Both are two dimensional (I'll
take
your word for that about the photon for the purpose of this
discussion).
So as the photon lies there on the square everything is two
dimensional and
there is no volume. So you still have nowhere to park something which
has a
volume.

Now you're side-stepping. You said you can't cram anything _into_ a
square foot.
I said you can. The word _into_ does not have to have three dimensions
to apply. You can put something into a square. As long as what you put
into the square has only two dimensions it will fit into the square. A
square exists and has no volume. Will you not agree that one can put
many small squares into a larger square? Sure, you can. Same thing with
photons of light. They have no volume unless they travel.

Wilbur Hubbard