"Jeff" wrote
Whenever I hear someone claim they must "accept this or that as the only path to salvation" I am offended. It is the
work of the Devil!


Jesus said exactly what you said up there offends you. Your saying Jesus is the work of the devil?
My oh my. Heaven help you, Jeff.
You must accept his offer-God's offer-or you'll not have everlasting life. Jesus lived. He died. He
came back to life. He did this after telling people he would do it and how he would do it. It that's not
proof enough he's God then may God have mercy on your soul....

Cheers,
Ellen

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:36:43 -0500, Ellen MacArthur wrote
(in article ews.net):


"Jeff" wrote
Whenever I hear someone claim they must "accept this or that as the only
path to salvation" I am offended. It is the
work of the Devil!


Jesus said exactly what you said up there offends you. Your saying
Jesus is the work of the devil?
My oh my. Heaven help you, Jeff.
You must accept his offer-God's offer-or you'll not have everlasting
life. Jesus lived. He died. He
came back to life. He did this after telling people he would do it and how he

would do it. It that's not
proof enough he's God then may God have mercy on your soul....

Cheers,
Ellen



For someone who bases everything on fact you sure leave your self dangling
with lots of hope...good luck with that.

--
Mundo, The Captain who is a bully and an ass

"Mundo" wrote in message

For someone who bases everything on fact you sure leave your self dangling
with lots of hope...good luck with that.

That's pretty much a definition of *faith.* Are you implying that you never
do anything on faith? Do you take risks? Or do you live such a monastic
(definition #2) lifestyle that nothing can bring harm to you?

Max

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:46:31 -0500, Maxprop wrote
(in article . net):


"Mundo" wrote in message

For someone who bases everything on fact you sure leave your self dangling
with lots of hope...good luck with that.

That's pretty much a definition of *faith.* Are you implying that you never
do anything on faith? Do you take risks? Or do you live such a monastic
(definition #2) lifestyle that nothing can bring harm to you?

Max



Quite the opposite. The post however was focused towards Neil who forever
quotes and stands behind "fact" yet seems to be able to go baseless into gut
feelings, the realm of god and heaven. Pure faith. No Fact. He is an enigma.

--
Mundo, The Captain who is a bully and an ass

"Mundo" wrote in message
. net...
On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:46:31 -0500, Maxprop wrote
(in article . net):


"Mundo" wrote in message

For someone who bases everything on fact you sure leave your self
dangling
with lots of hope...good luck with that.

That's pretty much a definition of *faith.* Are you implying that you
never
do anything on faith? Do you take risks? Or do you live such a monastic
(definition #2) lifestyle that nothing can bring harm to you?

Max



Quite the opposite. The post however was focused towards Neil who forever
quotes and stands behind "fact" yet seems to be able to go baseless into
gut
feelings, the realm of god and heaven. Pure faith. No Fact. He is an
enigma.

There is little or no fact where religion is concerned. Only faith. If
you're waiting for a Christian to provide evidence (facts) of God, you're in
for a long wait. But you are of course right--to a Christian, his belief
*is* fact. That's part and parcel of the faith business.

Max

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Whenever I hear someone claim they must "accept this or that as the only path to salvation" I am offended. It is the
work of the Devil!


Jesus said exactly what you said up there offends you.

You have absolutely no idea what Jesus actually said. You only have
the myth and rumor that was written down at least 30-40 years after
the fact.

Your saying Jesus is the work of the devil?

Jesus was probably a reasonable guy. Many people have added layers to
his teachings, some reasonable, some not.

Its the misguided people who insist that their version is the only
path for everyone that are doing a disservice to his memory.

My oh my. Heaven help you, Jeff.
You must accept his offer-God's offer-or you'll not have everlasting life. Jesus lived. He died. He
came back to life. He did this after telling people he would do it and how he would do it. It that's not
proof enough he's God then may God have mercy on your soul...

You've just proven my point.

"Jeff" wrote
You have absolutely no idea what Jesus actually said. You only have the myth and rumor that was written down at least
30-40 years after the fact.

Wrong! You don't have to hear somebody say something for it to be true.
I never heard Kennedy say, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what
you can do for your country." But I know he said it. There's historical records and
probably video tapes. But they can be faked. You can believe or not believe.
The Bible is an historical record. It's based on what people did and what people saw.
There's no reason to call Jesus and his followers liars just because you weren't there.
That's dumb, Jeff, dumb! Before there was writing there was oral tradition. People
were in charge of telling history. It was passed down from generation to generation.
American indians did it that way. It doesn't make it false.

Jesus was probably a reasonable guy. Many people have added layers to his teachings, some reasonable, some not.

The authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all added the same layers?
Fascinating.... Prophesy come true written hundreds of years prior to Jesus even
being born was people adding layers. Incredible... Oh, and Jesus was a guy but he
was also God. But, he was anything but reasonable. He said it's his way or you never
have eternal life. I believe him. There's nothing to lose by believing him and everything
to gain.

You've just proven my point.

No sweat. It's easy to prove your ignorant, Jeff.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
You have absolutely no idea what Jesus actually said. You only have the myth and rumor that was written down at least
30-40 years after the fact.

Wrong! You don't have to hear somebody say something for it to be true.
I never heard Kennedy say, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what
you can do for your country." But I know he said it. There's historical records and
probably video tapes. But they can be faked. You can believe or not believe.
The Bible is an historical record. It's based on what people did and what people saw.
There's no reason to call Jesus and his followers liars just because you weren't there.
That's dumb, Jeff, dumb! Before there was writing there was oral tradition. People
were in charge of telling history. It was passed down from generation to generation.
American indians did it that way. It doesn't make it false.

It doesn't make it literally true, either. It was common practice in
Greek history to completely make up speeches and dialog. The Greeks
(that is, the educated Romans in the Eastern Mediterranean) would
never have guessed that the Gospels were were the actual spoken words
of Jesus.



Jesus was probably a reasonable guy. Many people have added layers to his teachings, some reasonable, some not.

The authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all added the same layers?

Duh! Have you not read the Gospels?

Fascinating.... Prophesy come true written hundreds of years prior to Jesus even
being born was people adding layers. Incredible...

Odd, these "prophesies" were mostly not considered prophetic by the
people who made them. The early Christians had a small industry going
in trying to show that they were the "fulfillment" of the Jewish
destiny. That way, they would inherit the benefits that Jews had, as
an "Ancient Religion" in the Roman Empire. This was evident in the
letters of Paul, which were written before the Gospels (except
possibly Mark). Its pretty clear that much of the New Testament was
written to appear as fulfillment.

But, believe what you must.

Oh, and Jesus was a guy but he
was also God. But, he was anything but reasonable. He said it's his way or you never
have eternal life. I believe him. There's nothing to lose by believing him and everything
to gain.

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs. But you really should
study your sacred texts a bit. That way, you might not sound like a
little child parroting the comments of her Sunday School teacher.

Jeff,

Well stated. Bible history and Biblical history should be a combined
study. Jesus was a wonderful teacher for that time of world development.

Faith is a wonderful thing but should be tempered with Knowledge. Blind
Faith can be a dangerous thing.

I like your approach

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ILLDRINKTOTHAT

"Thom Stewart" wrote

Well stated. Bible history and Biblical history should be a combined
study. Jesus was a wonderful teacher for that time of world development.

That's typical what your saying, Tom. People dismiss Jesus by calling him a wonderful
teacher. That's so soo soooo shallow of people to attempt to diminish him like that. You and
others say. "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a wonderful teacher but I'm not gonna accept his
claim that he's God." Duh!
That's the very thing you shouldn't say. Why? It's pretty obvious to me. Anybody who
was just plain human and said the things Jesus said wouldn't be a wonderful moral teacher.
Nope, he'd be a raving lunatic or he'd be the devil incarnate.
You've got to choose one thing or the other. Either Jesus was what he said he was - God -
or he was a wack job nut case man or even the devil himself. So stop with the patronizing crap
about Jesus being just a wonderful teacher. It's an insult. That's not the choice he gave us.
Either believe he's what he says he is or reject him outright as a fraud. That's the choice he
demands of us. Don't try to diminish him by insulting him.

Cheers,
Ellen