"Edgar" wrote
Not if they see their end coming and get the words out quickly enough,
according to you...


Not quite, Edgar. Just mouthing some words means nothing. You've got to be sincere
about it, too.

Cheers,
Ellen

"Edgar" wrote
So they were a bit slow on the draw, repentancewise?

It was too early for repentance then. God told them they couldn't do something but
they went ahead and did it. God punished them. From then on everybody was punished.
But later on God had mercy and went himself in the form of Jesus to do something so
sins could be forgiven. Jesus takes away the sins of mankind. But he only takes them away
from people who ask that he do so and believe he will do so.
Remember there was another tree in the garden that Adam and Eve were free to eat
from. It was the tree of life. But they were stupid and didn't eat from it right away. Instead
they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So they got kicked out and never again
got a chance to eat from the tree of life. That is until Jesus came along and offered the very
same thing.
Don't be stupid like Adam and Eve. You've got a chance again to eat from the tree of life. Get
on with it before it's too late.

Cheers,
Ellen

"Popeye" wrote in message
...

much meaningless drivel snipped

Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose.
Religion applied to groups leads to intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

You can cite exceptions to virtually any rule all day long, Pop. There will
always be exceptions to a general rule, including the moral foundations
wrought by Christianity. Pedophilic priests, avaricious TV preachers, the
Salem witch trials, etc. But they represent a tiny fraction of the total
influence of "modern" Roman Catholicism and the protestant factions. They
do not refute the essential fundamental influence of western religions upon
morality. Aristotle was essentially a moral man adrift in a sea of
immorality. He, too, was an exception. There will always be exceptions,
and those whose arguments fall flat will always cite them as *evidence*
supporting their unfounded claims.

Max

Maxprop wrote:


You can cite exceptions to virtually any rule all day long, Pop. There will
always be exceptions to a general rule, including the moral foundations
wrought by Christianity. Pedophilic priests, avaricious TV preachers, the
Salem witch trials, etc. But they represent a tiny fraction of the total
influence of "modern" Roman Catholicism and the protestant factions. They
do not refute the essential fundamental influence of western religions upon
morality. Aristotle was essentially a moral man adrift in a sea of
immorality. He, too, was an exception. There will always be exceptions,
and those whose arguments fall flat will always cite them as *evidence*
supporting their unfounded claims.

Max


So, is the Ten Commandments appearing in the Old Testament an exception
also?

The Old Testament must be an exception too.

So is it the New Testament that has brought the world into the light? Or
has Christianity brought the world into the light? What part or
mechanism or Christianity - the philosophy or the organization and
marketing of the beliefs?

Obviously it is not the teachings of the New Testament that has brought
the world into the light, for most of it basis is in the Old Testament
which is an exception.

The only thing left is the mass marketing of religion, whether forced or
voluntary as the mechanism that has brought the world into the light.

So there we have it, the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for
bringing morality to the world. Before the RC Church existed, morality
was not commonplace, the Ten Commandments were irrelevant, Judaism was
nothing, the Old Testament wasn't worth the paper it was written on,
the Code of Hammurabi was a hiccup, etc.

Code of Hammurabi:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

You can go read the Code of Hammurabi, it is etched in stone literally
and is about 4,000 years old.

Yet another exception to the long line of exceptions.

The Roman Catholics adopted a good chunk of Roman Law didn't they?

Who was it that introduced the cannibalistic ritual?


Popeye Serpiginuous choroiditis

Max,

I would like to remind all the Jesus people quoting what he said that he
was born a Jew, Lived and preached the Jewish Faith (He was a Jewish
Rabbi) be died a Jew on the Cross and was resurrected a Jew. He never
ever ONCE preached or attended a Christian Church.

The first followers of Jesus were Jews, still followers of the Jewish
Faith. Their leader was his Brother.

I wonder if anyone can tell us when, how, and where the Christian Church
came into being?

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ILLDRINKTOTHAT

"Thom Stewart" wrote
I wonder if anyone can tell us when, how, and where the Christian Church
came into being?

That's an easy one to answer. It's explained in Matthew 16 verses 13-19.

13 And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples:
who do people say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one
of the prophets.
15 Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: You are Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed are you, Simon son of Jona, because
flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall
bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose
upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Now, the Catholics use verse 18 as the start of the Catholic church. But, we
Protestants disagree with the Catholics. The Catholics think Jesus said Peter was
the rock on which the church was to be built but we believe Jesus was not talking
about Peter as the rock but rather the faith that Peter demonstrated. Upon this
demonstration of faith I will build my church. That's the beginning of Christianity.

Cheers,
Ellen

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote
That's an easy one to answer. It's explained in Matthew 16 verses 13-19.

13 And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples:
who do people say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one
of the prophets.
15 Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: You are Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed are you, Simon son of Jona, because
flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall
bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose
upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Now, the Catholics use verse 18 as the start of the Catholic church. But, we
Protestants disagree with the Catholics. The Catholics think Jesus said Peter was
the rock on which the church was to be built but we believe Jesus was not talking
about Peter as the rock but rather the faith that Peter demonstrated. Upon this
demonstration of faith I will build my church. That's the beginning of Christianity.

Cheers,
Ellen

I just wanted to add something. The verses above are from the Catholic Bible.
Some of us Protestants like the King James Version of the Bible better. I'm one of them.
Here it is...

16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and
others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the
living God.
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which
is in heaven.
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Thom Stewart wrote:
Max,

I would like to remind all the Jesus people quoting what he said that he
was born a Jew, Lived and preached the Jewish Faith (He was a Jewish
Rabbi) be died a Jew on the Cross and was resurrected a Jew. He never
ever ONCE preached or attended a Christian Church.

The first followers of Jesus were Jews, still followers of the Jewish
Faith. Their leader was his Brother.

I wonder if anyone can tell us when, how, and where the Christian Church
came into being?

This is a complex question. Clearly there were followers of Jesus
before the crucification. However, in those early days "Christianity"
was a Jewish sect and followed most the Jewish practices of the day.
The Gospels Matthew and Mark were clearly written to appeal to a
Jewish audience. Paul changed that, by creating communities that were
mainly Gentile, or formally "Pagan." So you could say that around 50
CE Christianity was a Jewish sect, but fifty years later most
Christians were probably not Jews.

One must keep in mind that that this was a very tiny group - It has
been estimated that there were less than 150 Christians in 100 CE.
Thus, its really difficult to say what the background of the majority
was at any time. To make it even harder to sort out, there were a
number of Christian sects, some mainly Jewish, some not, that did not
survive. The sect that led to "normative Christianity" was possibly a
minority in the early days. Following the Council of Nicea (325) the
dissenting sects were wiped out and their writing generally destroyed.

One must also keep in mind that there were certain political forces at
play. The Jews enjoyed a special status in the Roman Empire as an
"ancient religion." They were exempt from showing subservience to the
various local gods. If Christians were not Jews, they enjoyed no such
benefits. On the other hand, during the several Jewish revolts it
was not cool to be Jewish. You can find echoes of all of this in the
Gospels.

Curiously, this special status of the Jews was a significant factor.
Although they enjoyed a unique religious freedom, they were also
responsible to pay an extra tax to support the Temple in Jerusalem.
The major building program of Herod worsened this, and led to the
unrest that was prevalent in the time of Jesus.

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Thom Stewart" wrote
I wonder if anyone can tell us when, how, and where the Christian Church
came into being?

That's an easy one to answer. It's explained in Matthew 16 verses 13-19.

13 And Jesus came into the region of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples:
who do people say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one
of the prophets.
15 Jesus said to them: But who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: You are Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed are you, Simon son of Jona, because
flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall
bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose
upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Now, the Catholics use verse 18 as the start of the Catholic church. But, we
Protestants disagree with the Catholics. The Catholics think Jesus said Peter was
the rock on which the church was to be built but we believe Jesus was not talking
about Peter as the rock but rather the faith that Peter demonstrated. Upon this
demonstration of faith I will build my church. That's the beginning of Christianity.

Actually, the "rock" was an obvious pun on Peter's name, since the
Greek word for rock is "petros." And since Peter's real name is
Simon, it may be that his nickname was "Rocky."

Also, the word "church" only shows up in the Gospels here and in
chapter 18 in a discussion of how to resolve disputes. Its almost as
if Matthew, writing this 40 years later, knew that there would be a
church, and that Peter would be a major force in it.

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Edgar" wrote
Not if they see their end coming and get the words out quickly enough,
according to you...


Not quite, Edgar. Just mouthing some words means nothing. You've got
to be sincere
about it, too.

Nothing like the sight of a guy with a noose on the end of a rope to make
one sincerely sorry...