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Jeff December 16th 06 03:33 AM
The Dana 24
 
wrote:
Isolators are a waste of energy, combiners mean the starter bank is
overcharged.

Somewhat agreed, depends on the charge source & duration. A combiner is
nice & simple, low voltage drop (more efficient). It doesn't
necessarily mean that one or the other bank is going to be overcharged
though.

Not necessarily, of course. But in my case, my starting batteries (I
have twin engines) are never discharged more than 1 or 2%. They are
AGM, so they don't self-discharge much, and my Yanmars always fire
within 2 seconds. They are essentially 100% charged, 100% of the
time. My house bank, on the other hand, often runs between 80% and
50% discharged on a daily basis. It is charged up with a 100 Amp
Alternator with a fairly aggressive charge profile. Other times it is
charged with a 100 Amp shore power charger (sometimes through a small
genset) that is almost as aggressive.

In other words, the charge profile the house bank sees is exactly
wrong for the starting batteries, and that is why I don't like using a
combiner. I have a combiner, but mainly I use the EchoCharge instead.

Jeff wrote:
These are two separate issues. The EchoCharge can tie in on the hot
side of the house bank, and thus is connected to all of the charge
sources. Its output goes to the starter bat as its only charge
source. This ensures that the starter bat get its appropriate
(normally trickle) charge even if the house bank is receiving a voltage.


Your alternator has an echo charger?

No, I have a standalone EchoCharger attached to all of the charge
sources (two alternators, solar panels, shore charger) and the house
bank. The output of the EchoCharger is the combiner which feeds the
two starting batteries.


A combiner is generally used only on the alternator output, which is a
shourt duration charge source and not likely to seriously overcharge
the battery ...unless the voltage regulator is FU or the battery(s) are
hot. A better charge regulator, external to the alternator (with temp
compensation) is a very good upgrade.

What if the alternator is really being used to charge a seriously
discharged house bank? The question here is the meaning of "short
duration" - for me that's an hour or more every day while cruising.


I have only seen echo chargers on 120V chargers; a better set-up
available now is completely seperate regulation available on seperate
legs.

This is true if you're shore power based, not if you live on the hook.
The EchoChargers that are built into Xantrex chargers were first
developed as standalone devices, and although they are a bit pricier
than combiners, they do the job properly.




The other issue is that most engines have a strap directly between the
alternator and the solenoid, and on to the battery switch. In my
setup (actually refer to Nigel Calder's book for this) you want the
alternator to feed the house bank, and the solenoid fed by the starter
battery. Thus, the strap must be removed.

The way that most older boats are set up, the alternator/solenoid
strap is at the "common" of the Big Red A/B switch. Current thinking
is that the starter and the house system should be separate circuits.

Well, they should have been all along, but it's cheap and simple and it
works for weekending (most of the time).

True, but most of the weekender's have a story about the time they
forgot to flip the switch ... I have a few.

Jeff December 16th 06 03:56 AM
The Dana 24
 
Steve Dooley wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:34:30 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Steve Dooley wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:35:44 -0500, Jeff wrote:
...
Batteries are quite simple. A small dedicated starting battery, plus
a large house bank, sized to handle at least two days' usage, the
bigger the better. Allow for cross-connecting in a crisis. Hook all
charge outputs directly to the house bank, feed the starter bat with
an Echo-Charge (this means the strap between the alternator and
starter solenoid should be broken).

Isolators are a waste of energy, combiners mean the starter bank is
overcharged.

I have no idea how a "delta configuration" would apply to batteries
(as opposed to motors or transformers).
If I run an automatic water making system should I turn it off when
discharging the head/holding tank?
maybe.

Steve Dooley (I do not even know who Tom Dooley is)
Hang down your head!
What is the Echo-Charge strap connected to on the alternator and
starter? It can't be the ground strap can it? What does breaking it
do? Are you talking about hooking the alternator directly to the
starter battery? I'm confused on this one.


I went to this web site:

http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm

and I'm trying to follow what you have said, so questions are
interspersed.

Its a nice combiner, though as I explain elsewhere, I'm not a fan of
the concept.



These are two separate issues. The EchoCharge can tie in on the hot
side of the house bank, and thus is connected to all of the charge
sources.

Don't you mean charge "sinks" instead of sources?

No, the input of the EchoCharger can be any source on my boat - two
alternators, 3 solar panels (actually through one regulator), or
shorepower. Of course, it is also ties at the same point as the house
bank (which is both source and sink) and the primary sinks, the fridge
and the house system (lights, instruments, TV etc.).



Its output goes to the starter bat as its only charge
source. This ensures that the starter bat get its appropriate
(normally trickle) charge even if the house bank is receiving a voltage.


The output of the alternator goes to the starter battery as the only
direct connection to a battery(from the alternator) and the alternator
is connected to the "master" combiner which feeds all the subsidiary
combiners. The "master" combiner is necessary to isolate the
potentially dissimiliar battery banks when fully charged. Am I
getting this right so far?

This may be the way Yandina describes their setup, and it works for
simple systems. I don't think its the best for a larger system where
a you are running an engine for an hour or more a day to charge a
house bank.






The other issue is that most engines have a strap directly between the
alternator and the solenoid, and on to the battery switch. In my
setup (actually refer to Nigel Calder's book for this) you want the
alternator to feed the house bank, and the solenoid fed by the starter
battery. Thus, the strap must be removed.


In this case you are talking about feeding the starter battery from
the alternator through a combiner and the battery directly going to
the starter. But I thought you said otherwise in the preceding
paragraph. Help me out here.

Well, the alternator never actually "feeds the starter," its that
builders presume that the battery used to start the engine is the same
as the one that will be charged. In my setup, the EchoCharger is the
source for charging the starter battery, the vast bulk of the
alternator output goes to the house bank. While the EchoCharger can
be replaced with a combiner, that presumes that the two banks desire
similar charge profiles, which is not the case.



The way that most older boats are set up, the alternator/solenoid
strap is at the "common" of the Big Red A/B switch. Current thinking
is that the starter and the house system should be separate circuits.

I can see why and appreciate the pun. You want to keep them separate
so one failure does not go into the other system.

More than that, there may be numerous differences in the systems.


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