Yesterday's Sail
 

"JimC" wrote
| Regarding the particular quote, it has been reported that the steering
| problem mentioned in that cite was a problem experienced in some early
| 26X models that has since been corrected. (The current model is the Mac
| 26M). Of course, the Mac isn't the only boat in which some owners have
| experienced problems over time. Re the comments of the particular
| technician, negative comments by mechanics about what they are working
| on, or about work done by others, are pretty common in my experience.

They should have recalled it and fixed it on ALL the boats. Are they gonna
let somebody drown first?

| Actually, if you read through the notes in the search you cited, most of
| the Mac owners quoted IN YOUR OWN SEARCH say that they are happy with
| their boats and haven't had any major problems. - See those quoted below
| for example.

Some people ain't too bright. Some people are happy with dangerous things.

| Again, anecdotes aren't the same thing as evidence, and they don't say

People telling other people how their boats broke and almost caused serious damage
or injury are valid to listen to. If you only listen to the glowing reports you don't get
the whole picture. Being so biased and defending a flimsy boat just because you have
one is dumb.

Cheers,
Ellen

Yesterday's Sail
 

You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
sold. How many of the 30,000 have had failures of the steering system
Ellen? Or, for that matter, failures of the running rigging, standing
rigging, or hull?

Jim



Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"JimC" wrote
| Regarding the particular quote, it has been reported that the steering
| problem mentioned in that cite was a problem experienced in some early
| 26X models that has since been corrected. (The current model is the Mac
| 26M). Of course, the Mac isn't the only boat in which some owners have
| experienced problems over time. Re the comments of the particular
| technician, negative comments by mechanics about what they are working
| on, or about work done by others, are pretty common in my experience.

They should have recalled it and fixed it on ALL the boats. Are they gonna
let somebody drown first?

You still haven't told us anything about the extent of this problem (if
there was a problem), or about its criticality or seriousness (e.g.,
whether or not a number of boats were disabled on the water). Also, if
there were an ongoing problem, you apparently don't know what MacGregor
did about it. (Neither do I, but I'm not the one bringing the
accusations.) - As a suggestion, you could qualify your statements by
admitting that you really don't know whether there were any serious
problems, or whether they amounted to a general problem affecting a
number of boats, but you did find some negative statements on the
internet from people who you really don't know anything about, talking
about situations that you also don't know much about, etc. Because
that's about all you have come up with Ellen.

| Actually, if you read through the notes in the search you cited, most of
| the Mac owners quoted IN YOUR OWN SEARCH say that they are happy with
| their boats and haven't had any major problems. - See those quoted below
| for example.

Some people ain't too bright.


- - Not too bright? You mean the folks who call the MacGregor a
dangerous pile of junk?


Some people are happy with dangerous things.

| Again, anecdotes aren't the same thing as evidence, and they don't say

People telling other people how their boats broke and almost caused serious damage
or injury are valid to listen to.


Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
boats.


If you only listen to the glowing reports you don't get
the whole picture. Being so biased and defending a flimsy boat just because you have
one is dumb.

Right. And similarly, if you only listen to the few who had major
problems with their Macs, you also don't get the whole picture.

I'm not defending a flimsy boat, and I'm not defending the Mac just
because I have one. As stated a number of times on this ng, I recognize
that the Macs have good and bad points (as do all boats), and that they
don't sail like a conventional fixed keel boat with a long waterline.
What I have said was that, as one of the few Mac owners on the ng, I
feel some obligation to provide a little balance to such discussions
from time to time. And calling it a "flimsy boat," with no meaningful
evidence whatsoever that there are any extensive problems (e.g.,
significant numbers of Macs failing or falling apart because of "flimsy"
construction) is certainly not a balanced statement or a fair treatment
of the subject. Again, how many of the 20,000-plus 26 Macs have failed
or come apart while being sailed Ellen? Do you have reports of over a
thousand? Or, perhaps, over 500? Surely you can cite over 100 serious
Mac accidents in the last several years, Ellen. - No? Then how about 50?

Since you are apparently accusing MacGregor of what is essentially gross
negligence regarding the 26X steering system and of not taking
appropriate corrective measures in a timely manner, you should probably
do some research relative to what actually happened (if it did) before
you post those kinds of accusations on the ng. I happen to be an
attorney, and I would suggest that you might want to consult your own
attorney before you accuse a company of gross negligence re a
potentially hazardous condition such as this ("flimsy construction" that
is putting people's lives at risk), if that's what you're actually saying.

Jim




Cheers,
Ellen

Yesterday's Sail
 

JimC wrote:
You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
sold.

You used to be emphatic the the 26M was a total redesign of the 26X,
and that no conclusion could be derived from the problems of the
earlier boats. Now you're lumping together every Mac ever made (and
the Ventures) and claiming that by their very numbers, they must be
good.

....

Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
boats.

Omigosh! I didn't realize it was that bad! You're saying that 15% of
Mac owners say it was a horrible blunder?

Yesterday's Sail
 

"JimC" wrote
| You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
| of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
| sold. How many of the 30,000 have had failures of the steering system
| Ellen? Or, for that matter, failures of the running rigging, standing
| rigging, or hull?

Oh my Gawd! It's worse than I thought. 30,000 sold = 30,000 people who don't
really care about their own safety..... (or who won't admit they made a big mistake ;-)

| You still haven't told us anything about the extent of this problem (if
| there was a problem), or about its criticality or seriousness (e.g.,
| whether or not a number of boats were disabled on the water). Also, if
| there were an ongoing problem, you apparently don't know what MacGregor
| did about it. (Neither do I, but I'm not the one bringing the
| accusations.) - As a suggestion, you could qualify your statements by
| admitting that you really don't know whether there were any serious
| problems, or whether they amounted to a general problem affecting a
| number of boats, but you did find some negative statements on the
| internet from people who you really don't know anything about, talking
| about situations that you also don't know much about, etc. Because
| that's about all you have come up with Ellen.

It's not up to me to prove anything to a disbeliever. You've made up your mind.
I think it's revealing how you go on and on about it. It's like your trying to justify it
in your own mind. Talk to any knowledgeable sailor and they'll tell you Magregor 26s
have a history of being flimsy. You don't like facts it's plain. Safety isn't high on
your list. That's plain too.....

| - - Not too bright? You mean the folks who call the MacGregor a
| dangerous pile of junk?

Now your putting words in my mouth. I never said they're a dangerous pile of junk. I just
said they're flimsy. They are flimsy and that's a well known fact.

| Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
| and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
| again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
| boats.

Good grief. People say they like things they really don't like for any number of
reasons. The main reason is they're too embarrassed to admit they made a bad choice.
Garage sales are full of bad choices. Who's honest enough to say *I didn't know
what I was doing. I bought that thing because I didn't know any better. It was a mistake*?
Maybe ten people in 30,000? What a silly way to try to prove something is quality built.


| Right. And similarly, if you only listen to the few who had major
| problems with their Macs, you also don't get the whole picture.

Anybody who hasn't had a problem with a MacGregor 26 just hasn't used it much...

| you post those kinds of accusations on the ng. I happen to be an
| attorney, and I would suggest that you might want to consult your own
| attorney before you accuse a company of gross negligence re a
| potentially hazardous condition such as this ("flimsy construction" that
| is putting people's lives at risk), if that's what you're actually saying.

Attorney? Well, that explains it. Your dumb as a box of rocks. Couldn't get a real
job, huh? I can say anything I want to say about any boat I want to say it about. Nobody
can censure my opinion. I say your biased. I say your stupid. I say you've a flimsy boat.
So sue me....

Cheers,
Ellen

Yesterday's Sail
 

Jeff wrote:
JimC wrote:

You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is
one of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over
30,000 sold.


You used to be emphatic the the 26M was a total redesign of the 26X, and
that no conclusion could be derived from the problems of the earlier
boats. Now you're lumping together every Mac ever made (and the
Ventures) and claiming that by their very numbers, they must be good.

...

Jeff, you need to avoid mixing up your apples and oranges. The Mac 26M
is the current model and does include a major redesign of the hull,
along with other improvements such as additional fiberglas in the hull,
a vertically retractable dagger board rather than a pivotal keel, a
rotatable mast, a traveler, chainplate redesign, etc. Accordingly, I
have said that if you are going to criticize the boat's handling and
rigging, you ought to talk about the current model rather than boats
they were building 15 years ago. However, the boats Ellen was talking
about (the one mentioned in the anecdote she dug up on the net) was one
of the older models. Also, her negative comments about "flimsy build"
apparently related to Macs in general. - AFAIK, she hasn't sailed one of
the new models and doesn't know much about them. Therefore, my reply
regarding the overall satisfaction of over 30,000 Mac owners and her
inability to dig up more than a handfull of reports of significant
structural or mechanical failures out of 30,000-plus Macs built over the
years is appropriate because it addressed what she was talking about.



Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their
boats, and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the
boat again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with
their boats.


Omigosh! I didn't realize it was that bad! You're saying that 15% of
Mac owners say it was a horrible blunder?


15% said it was a horrible blunder? - Nope. The 85% (positive) figure is
from a site in which owners of the Mac 26M were asked to comment on the
boat and indicate whether, based on their experience sailing the boat,
they would buy one again given the choice. - The majority of the
responses were highly positive. The 15% figure includes several who said
they couldn't predict whether or not they would buy a Mac again
(undecided); several who hadn't made up their mind yet because they
hadn't had the boat long enough to make a valid judgment; several who
said they realized that they needed a larger boat; and a very small
minority who didn't like the boat and would look for something else.

As I have said many times, I'm not trying to say the Mac is the greatest
boat on the water. - I'm just trying to provide a little balance to what
in the past has been an imbalanced Mac-bashing in which those with the
most negative comments have no substantive evidence to back up their
comments and usually have never even sailed one of the newer Macs. Of
course, the Macs have good and bad points (as do all boats), and I
wouldn't recommend one as a liveaboard or for anyone planning to make
extended crossings, for example. But calling it a flimsy boat not
adequately built for its size and weight isn't a rational or balanced
approach. And so far, NO ONE has been able to provide evidence or
statistics (not anecdotes) showing significant numbers of Mac failures
because of "flimsy" build, inadequate rigging, etc.

Plus, they're lots of fun to sail.

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

If you buy a burger at McDs, you're among millions who do so. And, I'm
guessing that 99% of the people are satisfied with the burger. But, that
doesn't say much for the quality of the meal.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
JimC wrote:
You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
sold.

You used to be emphatic the the 26M was a total redesign of the 26X, and
that no conclusion could be derived from the problems of the earlier
boats. Now you're lumping together every Mac ever made (and the Ventures)
and claiming that by their very numbers, they must be good.

...

Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat again,
it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their boats.

Omigosh! I didn't realize it was that bad! You're saying that 15% of Mac
owners say it was a horrible blunder?

Yesterday's Sail
 

Capt. JG wrote:
If you buy a burger at McDs, you're among millions who do so. And, I'm
guessing that 99% of the people are satisfied with the burger. But, that
doesn't say much for the quality of the meal.


This figure (over 30K Macs) was given in response to Ellen's quotes from
several people criticising the Mac. My point was that anecdotes and
quotes from a few people has little significance in light of the fact
that we are talking about over 30K boats. - It's a matter of logic and
statistics, Capt.

Please point to anything in my note that said that the fact that over
30K Macs were sold proves that the quality must be good.

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

"JimC" wrote
| Please point to anything in my note that said that the fact that over
| 30K Macs were sold proves that the quality must be good.

It proves 30,000 people aren't concerned about their own safety.....

Cheers,
Ellen

Yesterday's Sail
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:

"JimC" wrote
| You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
| of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
| sold. How many of the 30,000 have had failures of the steering system
| Ellen? Or, for that matter, failures of the running rigging, standing
| rigging, or hull?

Oh my Gawd! It's worse than I thought. 30,000 sold = 30,000 people who don't
really care about their own safety..... (or who won't admit they made a big mistake ;-)

Cute Ellen. But you still haven't addressed my point. - Which was that
in view of the fact that there were over 30K Macs sold, negative
comments from a few Mac Bashers on the web has little significance. If
you had four or five thousand reports from owners of Macs who were
complaining about their boats falling apart under sail, then you would
have information that would be statistically significant.


| You still haven't told us anything about the extent of this problem (if
| there was a problem), or about its criticality or seriousness (e.g.,
| whether or not a number of boats were disabled on the water). Also, if
| there were an ongoing problem, you apparently don't know what MacGregor
| did about it. (Neither do I, but I'm not the one bringing the
| accusations.) - As a suggestion, you could qualify your statements by
| admitting that you really don't know whether there were any serious
| problems, or whether they amounted to a general problem affecting a
| number of boats, but you did find some negative statements on the
| internet from people who you really don't know anything about, talking
| about situations that you also don't know much about, etc. Because
| that's about all you have come up with Ellen.

It's not up to me to prove anything to a disbeliever.

You were the one who introduced the criticisms of the Mac. It's up to
you to support your assertions.

You've made up your mind.

Well, I've made up my mind that the Mac has good and bad points, and
that most of them aren't falling apart under sail, and that lots of
those who criticize them don't actually have hands-on experience with
them, particularly the 26M. - Do you have any evidence (again, that's
evidence, as distinguished from anecdotes) that would contradict that
conclusion? If you do, then I'll be happy to reconsider my position.


I think it's revealing how you go on and on about it. It's like your trying to justify it
in your own mind.

I'm one of the few Mac owners on the ng and one of the few that has any
experience sailing the current model (the 26M) Mac. It's only reasonable
that I should step up from time to time and provide a little balance to
such discussions. (But you apparently don't like that. It sounds like
you want me to just turn tail and run. - Are my notes getting to you
Ellen?)

Talk to any knowledgeable sailor and they'll tell you Magregor 26s
have a history of being flimsy. You don't like facts it's plain.

Actually, I do like facts. It's slurs and second hand comments by people
who have little or no actual knowledge of what they are talking about
and no experience with the boat in question that I have a problem with.
The expression: "everybody knows....." usually comes from someone who is
too lazy to do their homework and get the facts. Is that you Ellen? Is
this discussion becoming just a little more difficult than you had
anticipated?


Safety isn't high on
your list. That's plain too.....

How ridiculous can you be Ellen? The Macs are one of the safest boats of
their class on the market. (ONCE AGAIN, where is your evidence and
statistics proving any extensive safety problems with the Macs? What
percentage of the over 30,000, have failed due to "flimsy" construction,
resulting in death or injury to any of the skippers or crew?)

(1) The Mac has positive flotation sufficient to keep it afloat even if
the hull is penetrated and the cabin filled with water. (2) It has a
double layer hull extending along most of the length of the boat, and a
puncture of the lower hull layer does not permit water to enter the
cabin. (3) It has no through-hulls (unless added by the owner) and no
through-hull valves, etc. No jammed through-hull valves, and no tubing
leaks. (4) Because it has no inboard motor, it needs no bore through the
hull for the shaft supporting the prop, and it needs no bushings, etc.,
sealing the shaft. (5) In the event the hull of a conventional vessel is
compromised and water enters the cabin, the massive keel of the boat can
quickly pull the boat under the surface and drag it down to the bottom
of the particular body of water. In some instances, conventional
sailboats have sunk in a manner of a few minutes after the hull was
compromised. In contrast, the Mac has a dagger board but no weighted
keel. Obviously, the Mac isn't built for extended ocean crossings, and
it's not comfortable in very heavy weather conditions. But it's still
one of the safest boats of its size out there.

Ellen, your statement that I don't care about safety because I sail a
Mac reveals once again that you really don't know what you are talking
about. You simply haven't done your homework.



| - - Not too bright? You mean the folks who call the MacGregor a
| dangerous pile of junk?

Now your putting words in my mouth. I never said they're a dangerous pile of junk. I just
said they're flimsy. They are flimsy and that's a well known fact.

Well now, are you saying that they're NOT a pile of junk, Ellen? Maybe
we're getting somewhere.


| Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
| and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
| again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
| boats.

Good grief. People say they like things they really don't like for any number of
reasons. The main reason is they're too embarrassed to admit they made a bad choice.
Garage sales are full of bad choices. Who's honest enough to say *I didn't know
what I was doing. I bought that thing because I didn't know any better. It was a mistake*?
Maybe ten people in 30,000? What a silly way to try to prove something is quality built.

Almost as silly as you claiming that you proved the Mac was flimsy and
unsafe because you found quotes from several people on the internet
criticizing them, or because "everybody knows that Macs are flimsy and
unsafe", right Ellen? Actually, from the Mac discussion groups I read,
lots of Mac owners are willing to criticize their boats from time to
time. Also, in my experience, there are lots of people who find the
internet a handy medium in which to blow off steam about problems they
are having with a particular company or product.


| Right. And similarly, if you only listen to the few who had major
| problems with their Macs, you also don't get the whole picture.

Anybody who hasn't had a problem with a MacGregor 26 just hasn't used it much...

Any evidence to back up that particular assertion, Ellen? No? I thought so.

(Actually, I rather think that owners of ANY boat are going to have some
kind of problems with them over time.)



| you post those kinds of accusations on the ng. I happen to be an
| attorney, and I would suggest that you might want to consult your own
| attorney before you accuse a company of gross negligence re a
| potentially hazardous condition such as this ("flimsy construction" that
| is putting people's lives at risk), if that's what you're actually saying.

Attorney? Well, that explains it. Your dumb as a box of rocks. Couldn't get a real
job, huh? I can say anything I want to say about any boat I want to say it about. Nobody
can censure my opinion. I say your biased. I say your stupid. I say you've a flimsy boat.
So sue me....

Obviously, this discussion is getting to you Ellen. - You're loosing it!

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

Never intended to claim that.

You said "great majority of reports from Mac owners are that they are happy
with their boats and would buy another one." Then, you went on to say how
many were sold, quoting a figure of 30K with some part of 15% saying they
were dissatisfied. I'm pointing out that some percentage of McD burger
eaters would say they didn't like the food, but the vast majority are
probably satisfied.

You claim that it's a good quality boat, right. So, citing a satisfaction
percentage of 85% isn't saying much.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JimC" wrote in message
. ..


Capt. JG wrote:
If you buy a burger at McDs, you're among millions who do so. And, I'm
guessing that 99% of the people are satisfied with the burger. But, that
doesn't say much for the quality of the meal.


This figure (over 30K Macs) was given in response to Ellen's quotes from
several people criticising the Mac. My point was that anecdotes and quotes
from a few people has little significance in light of the fact that we are
talking about over 30K boats. - It's a matter of logic and statistics,
Capt.

Please point to anything in my note that said that the fact that over 30K
Macs were sold proves that the quality must be good.

Jim