Yesterday's Sail
 

JimC wrote:
Joe wrote:
JimC wrote:

Don't include me in the bark-o-lounger group. - I was out on my Mac 26M
most of yesterday afternoon. We had 15-mph winds, gusts over 20.

Jim


Were you sailing off Kemah Jim?
Yesterday morning was calm as glass but it sure did build up nice in
the afternoon.

Joe


This was Monday, from Kemah, around 1:30 to 5:30. Were you out there also?

No ;0(

Have to finish up some projects and hope to sail to Port Mansfield
around the new years.

Also need to haul and do a bottom job first. January sailing is nice
around Mansfield, weather in the 70's and perfect fishing and exploring
on the Padre islands, all the tourists are gone, crystal clear water,
salty oyster reefs, great local people. Spent a year there in the Oil
patch and fell in love with the place. House values are very low right
now there, the channel is silted in and nothing over 5-6 ft draft can
get into port. Might find a nice cottage to buy.

Have you noticed all the high rise condo going in this side of the
lake? That big indoor marina was bought for 25 million, marker 1 was
just bought for 25 million, and two other spots are getting high rises.
I'm sure they have tried to buy this marina, and if so like the other
marinas I will get 30 days notice to leave. Not to crazy about any of
the other marinas on the lake so I figure it's time to buy land with a
dock. The condo highrise they are building just to stbd is averging 1
floor a day, they are on floor 12 going to 35. The other marinas bought
were on the tax roll at 3-8 million, this one is 3.5 million and if
offered 25+million I'm not sure if the owner will pass on such an
offer. You've seen my dock, it's the perfect set-up beside owning my
own.

Joe



Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

Scotty wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
om...

My intended point was Scotty's monotonous,

same-ole-same-ole approach. -

Always the same message.



What message is that, Jim?


The message essentially is that Macs are garbage, a pile of junk,
dangerously underbuilt, sailed only by novices, etc. And also, anyone
who enjoys sailing a Mac doesn't know anything about sailing.

But I may have to modify my previous remarks to a degree. - In reviewing
some of your past comments, I note the following:

"Watch it Skitchy, I have fond memories of that Mac. really, it's not a
bad little boat if you sail it within it's limits. I sailed farther on
that Mac than some P30 owners have sailed."
Scotty

Glad to see that you enjoyed your own Mac when you had it Scotty. - And
if you had owned one of the 26M's instead of your old, obsolete model,
you might like them even more.

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

Joe wrote:



Have to finish up some projects and hope to sail to Port Mansfield
around the new years.

Also need to haul and do a bottom job first. January sailing is nice
around Mansfield, weather in the 70's and perfect fishing and exploring
on the Padre islands, all the tourists are gone, crystal clear water,
salty oyster reefs, great local people. Spent a year there in the Oil
patch and fell in love with the place. House values are very low right
now there, the channel is silted in and nothing over 5-6 ft draft can
get into port. Might find a nice cottage to buy.

Have you noticed all the high rise condo going in this side of the
lake? That big indoor marina was bought for 25 million, marker 1 was
just bought for 25 million, and two other spots are getting high rises.
I'm sure they have tried to buy this marina, and if so like the other
marinas I will get 30 days notice to leave. Not to crazy about any of
the other marinas on the lake so I figure it's time to buy land with a
dock. The condo highrise they are building just to stbd is averging 1
floor a day, they are on floor 12 going to 35. The other marinas bought
were on the tax roll at 3-8 million, this one is 3.5 million and if
offered 25+million I'm not sure if the owner will pass on such an
offer. You've seen my dock, it's the perfect set-up beside owning my
own.

Joe

Too bad you don't own part of your marina. But there are other possible
options in the area. It would still be cheaper than renting an
apartment or buying a house, although its quite some distance to the
blue water.

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

JimC wrote:

Macs are garbage, a pile of junk,
dangerously underbuilt, sailed only by novices, etc. And also, anyone
who enjoys sailing a Mac doesn't know anything about sailing.

Don't be to hard on yourself Jim. After all, its how you use the boat
that counts. It may not be my favorite, but if it helps you find
enjoyment on the water, be my guest!

Yesterday's Sail
 

Jeff wrote:

JimC wrote:


Macs are garbage, a pile of junk, dangerously underbuilt, sailed only
by novices, etc. And also, anyone who enjoys sailing a Mac doesn't
know anything about sailing.


Don't be to hard on yourself Jim. After all, its how you use the boat
that counts. It may not be my favorite, but if it helps you find
enjoyment on the water, be my guest!

Jeff,

As one of the few Mac sailors on the ng, I feel some responsibility to
provide a little balance to discussions of the Macs' characteristics and
capabilities from time to time. As previously discussed, I have
experience sailing a number of larger, conventional, weighted keel boats
(the Mac 26M has an internal, water ballast), so I'm well aware of the
limitations of the Mac when compared to such larger vessels. I'm also
aware of some of the limitations of conventional, weighted keel vessels.

As you say, the main issue is whether we are enjoying the sailing
experiences we get on our respective boats.

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

"JimC" wrote in message
...


Jeff wrote:

JimC wrote:


Macs are garbage, a pile of junk, dangerously underbuilt, sailed only by
novices, etc. And also, anyone who enjoys sailing a Mac doesn't know
anything about sailing.


Don't be to hard on yourself Jim. After all, its how you use the boat
that counts. It may not be my favorite, but if it helps you find
enjoyment on the water, be my guest!

Jeff,

As one of the few Mac sailors on the ng, I feel some responsibility to
provide a little balance to discussions of the Macs' characteristics and
capabilities from time to time. As previously discussed, I have experience
sailing a number of larger, conventional, weighted keel boats (the Mac 26M
has an internal, water ballast), so I'm well aware of the limitations of
the Mac when compared to such larger vessels. I'm also aware of some of
the limitations of conventional, weighted keel vessels.

As you say, the main issue is whether we are enjoying the sailing
experiences we get on our respective boats.
Jim

Jim,
You are exactly right.
Scout

Yesterday's Sail
 

"JimC" wrote
| As you say, the main issue is whether we are enjoying the sailing
| experiences we get on our respective boats.


They taught us safety was the main issue.... I like MacGregors's but everybody knows
they're built flimsy.... They're not as safe as they could be. They need to make them better.

Cheers,
Ellen

Yesterday's Sail
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"JimC" wrote
| As you say, the main issue is whether we are enjoying the sailing
| experiences we get on our respective boats.


They taught us safety was the main issue.... I like MacGregors's but everybody knows
they're built flimsy.... They're not as safe as they could be. They need to make them better.

Cheers,
Ellen

Do you have any statistics or evidence to support your claim that the
Macs are built "flimsy", Ellen? - Or are you just going to say that you
don't have to provide any evidence because "Everybody knows....." Or
that you don't have any evidence of multiple Mac failures, but you
would just feel more comforatable if they were built heavier and had
standing rigging like a 40-ft Valiant, ODay, Tartan, etc. The facts are
that the Macs are light boats, and, accordingly, their rigging is light.
Obviously, it's not the same as rigging needed for a larger, heavier
boat. Also, the Macs are not sold as boats suitable for blue water
crossings.

- On the other hand, if you don't have evidence that lots of them are
failing or falling apart because "they're built flimsy....", then maybe
you should tell us that and qualify your statements. There are over 20K
Macs still sailing. - What percentage of them have failed because of
inadequate rigging or hull construction?

Please provide evidence that lots of Macs are failing because their
rigging is not adequate for the particular application.

Jim

Yesterday's Sail
 

"JimC" wrote
| Do you have any statistics or evidence to support your claim that the
| Macs are built "flimsy", Ellen? - Or are you just going to say that you
| don't have to provide any evidence because "Everybody knows....." Or
| that you don't have any evidence of multiple Mac failures, but you
| would just feel more comforatable if they were built heavier and had
| standing rigging like a 40-ft Valiant, ODay, Tartan, etc. The facts are
| that the Macs are light boats, and, accordingly, their rigging is light.
| Obviously, it's not the same as rigging needed for a larger, heavier
| boat. Also, the Macs are not sold as boats suitable for blue water
| crossings.


All you have to do is Google it. You'll find lots of things that say flimsy! Here's one:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...79239908e0a744

"Actually two different things were failing simultaneously. The cheap
steering helm "warped". This would appear to be due to the fact that
it is designed for small power boats, and is NOT designed to handle
the stress of feedback from rudders. This did not, of course, happen
instantly, but when it finally died it did it big time. This problem
can be remedied by replacing the stock helm with a good steel one,
available from a number of marine supply houses. You have to replace
both the helm and the cable. The mechanic who did the installation
for me could not believe that Macgregor had used such inadequate
hardware. The second problem related to having non-stainless mounting
hardware that corroded. A side item that we discovered later is that
one of the rudder brackets was cracking. There are numerous other
problems relating to the whole arrangement, including an inabliltiy to
get an adequate range of motion from the engine. The system needs a
complete redesign. "

There are lots more discussions. Lot's of stuff is built flimsy and breaks on MacGregor 26 sailboat.
Everybody knows about it. Here's the Google search from news groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Ma...roups&ct=title
Not very safe when so many things wear out or break. Safety should come
first out on the water. You can drown just as easy near the shore as off shore. Duh!

Cheers,
Ellen

Yesterday's Sail
 

Ellen,

Isolated anecdotes don't constitute evidence or statistics. - And that's
what I asked for - not anecdotes.

There are thousands of Macs still sailing in all kinds of waters all
over the world, and the great majority of reports from Mac owners are
that they are happy with their boats and would buy another one.
Regarding the particular quote, it has been reported that the steering
problem mentioned in that cite was a problem experienced in some early
26X models that has since been corrected. (The current model is the Mac
26M). Of course, the Mac isn't the only boat in which some owners have
experienced problems over time. Re the comments of the particular
technician, negative comments by mechanics about what they are working
on, or about work done by others, are pretty common in my experience.

Actually, if you read through the notes in the search you cited, most of
the Mac owners quoted IN YOUR OWN SEARCH say that they are happy with
their boats and haven't had any major problems. - See those quoted below
for example.

Again, anecdotes aren't the same thing as evidence, and they don't say
much about the typical experience of the thousands of Mac owners. - Even
less significant are the sarcastic remarks and second-hand hearsay
comments from owners of other boats who have little or no experience
with the Macs, much less having sailed the current model.

Jim




Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"JimC" wrote
| Do you have any statistics or evidence to support your claim that the
| Macs are built "flimsy", Ellen? - Or are you just going to say that you
| don't have to provide any evidence because "Everybody knows....." Or
| that you don't have any evidence of multiple Mac failures, but you
| would just feel more comforatable if they were built heavier and had
| standing rigging like a 40-ft Valiant, ODay, Tartan, etc. The facts are
| that the Macs are light boats, and, accordingly, their rigging is light.
| Obviously, it's not the same as rigging needed for a larger, heavier
| boat. Also, the Macs are not sold as boats suitable for blue water
| crossings.


All you have to do is Google it. You'll find lots of things that say flimsy! Here's one:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...79239908e0a744

"Actually two different things were failing simultaneously. The cheap
steering helm "warped". This would appear to be due to the fact that
it is designed for small power boats, and is NOT designed to handle
the stress of feedback from rudders. This did not, of course, happen
instantly, but when it finally died it did it big time. This problem
can be remedied by replacing the stock helm with a good steel one,
available from a number of marine supply houses. You have to replace
both the helm and the cable. The mechanic who did the installation
for me could not believe that Macgregor had used such inadequate
hardware. The second problem related to having non-stainless mounting
hardware that corroded. A side item that we discovered later is that
one of the rudder brackets was cracking. There are numerous other
problems relating to the whole arrangement, including an inabliltiy to
get an adequate range of motion from the engine. The system needs a
complete redesign. "


- - This, again is merely an anecdotal report about one boat. - What Mac
was this, how old was it, and what percentage of Macs purchased in the
past ten years have had this problem? If it was an early year 26X model,
the steering linkage was changed long ago. - -


" We've owned both a 26 and a 26X. I disagree with your comment about the 26
sailing better than the 26X. I've sailed the 26X on Lake Superior for the
last 3 years, not only is it quicker under sail but it is much more stable.
As for the outboard, we run a Yamaha 15hp, which works well. The guys that
run the 50HP can sure go fast, but you can't put enough fuel on the boat to
make the engine useable for any type of cruising.
Ventures and Macgragors are built "less-expensively" but are pretty well
engineered. Remember a lighter boat imposes less strain on it's
structure and rig; furthermore there are literally dozens of thousands
of them that have been happily sailing for years."

- This is what I was saying. --


" I don't own one myself, but two of my best sailing friends have the
older Mac 26 and get a lot of enjoyable sailing and cruising out of
them. But they just don't have any "snob appeal"....."

"We've loved both of the Mac's we've owned, definitely a great sailing,
AFFORDABLE boat. As for the snob appeal, I'd rather have none than have to
worry about a $1000 boat payment every month."


"Flimsy to me implies not strong enough for the intended purpose and/or
likely to fall apart quickly. Neither is true of the 26X--like other
Macs,the 26X aren't experiencing structural failures. I expect the 26Xs
willstill be out on the water offending the purists 20 or 25 years from
now just like the old Ventures."

------------------
(Again, a few comments taken from your own search.)