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modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:32:39 -0400, "Scout" scribbled thusly: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout No. You make some excellent points. Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Scout wrote:
OzOne wrote in message ... On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:32:39 -0400, "Scout" scribbled thusly: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout No. You make some excellent points. Scout He's so succinct in his answers.... |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"katy" wrote in message
... Scout wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:32:39 -0400, "Scout" scribbled thusly: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout No. You make some excellent points. Scout He's so succinct in his answers.... I think it I read it in a Matt Collie discussion, but I can't seem to find it and I can't remember if this was Matt's position or someone else's. If you're out there Matt . . . Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Scout wrote:
"katy" wrote in message ... Scout wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:32:39 -0400, "Scout" scribbled thusly: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout No. You make some excellent points. Scout He's so succinct in his answers.... I think it I read it in a Matt Collie discussion, but I can't seem to find it and I can't remember if this was Matt's position or someone else's. If you're out there Matt . . . Scout People sailed to wind before the wing....s;oops have been around for awhile...and didn't schooners sail to wind? I know that aquare riggers, etc. were inefficient going to wind. Bet Bart knows the answer. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"katy" wrote in message
... Scout wrote: "katy" wrote in message ... Scout wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:32:39 -0400, "Scout" scribbled thusly: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout No. You make some excellent points. Scout He's so succinct in his answers.... I think it I read it in a Matt Collie discussion, but I can't seem to find it and I can't remember if this was Matt's position or someone else's. If you're out there Matt . . . Scout People sailed to wind before the wing....s;oops have been around for awhile...and didn't schooners sail to wind? I know that aquare riggers, etc. were inefficient going to wind. Bet Bart knows the answer. Ok, I just hope it's not "no" - lol Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Scout" wrote in message ... Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout Right you are Scout. The first heavy lift gliders came about before 1800. You can see that the technology existed in planes before it got around to sailboats. http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/...e/firstair.htm Most of the people here are not knowledgeable in the ways of science. It was once said that science was too important to be left for the scientists. But laymen have neither the training or the inclination for scientific thought. I will no longer sit back and allow non science opinion, non science indoctrination and the international non science conspiracy to sap and irrationalize our precious scientific thought. Have you ever seen a non scientist drink water? Distilled, pure, ion free water? That's right, your typical non scientist does not drink pure distilled water. Their precious bodily fluids are impure and their capacity for scientific thought is impaired. This all became apparent to me during the act of calculating. I assure you my scientific essence remains pure, though I deny non scientists the benefits of my calculations. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote in message ... I think you may be overlooking the dhow with it's lateen rigs from some 2000 years ago. You may be overlooking the fact the had no keel and sailed at best with the wind abeam, not into the wind. Show me proof. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:09:13 -0600, "Gilligan" scribbled thusly: "Scout" wrote in message ... Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout Right you are Scout. The first heavy lift gliders came about before 1800. You can see that the technology existed in planes before it got around to sailboats. http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/...e/firstair.htm Most of the people here are not knowledgeable in the ways of science. It was once said that science was too important to be left for the scientists. But laymen have neither the training or the inclination for scientific thought. I will no longer sit back and allow non science opinion, non science indoctrination and the international non science conspiracy to sap and irrationalize our precious scientific thought. Have you ever seen a non scientist drink water? Distilled, pure, ion free water? That's right, your typical non scientist does not drink pure distilled water. Their precious bodily fluids are impure and their capacity for scientific thought is impaired. This all became apparent to me during the act of calculating. I assure you my scientific essence remains pure, though I deny non scientists the benefits of my calculations. For all your bluff blunder and bull****, I think you may be overlooking the dhow with it's lateen rigs from some 2000 years ago. The ones sailing the Nile? Joe Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Joe" wrote in message ps.com... I think you may be overlooking the dhow with it's lateen rigs from some 2000 years ago. The ones sailing the Nile? Yes, just like the Egyptian gliders of the time: http://www.catchpenny.org/model.html http://www.huge-entity.com/2005/10/a...g-machine.html The development of the glider lead to sailboats sailing into the wind. Crickey! |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Gilligan wrote: "Joe" wrote in message ps.com... I think you may be overlooking the dhow with it's lateen rigs from some 2000 years ago. The ones sailing the Nile? Yes, just like the Egyptian gliders of the time: http://www.catchpenny.org/model.html http://www.huge-entity.com/2005/10/a...g-machine.html The development of the glider lead to sailboats sailing into the wind. That is clearly a early Windex or wind vane, put atop a sailing mast. It was found with a boat and mast BTW. Joe Crickey! |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote in message ... I would suggest that using this hypothesis, a ball can fly. Yes it can if it has backspin because it would exhibit aerodynamic lift. Check out the magnus effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect Man was flying 2500 years ago: http://luban.quickseek.com/ Still before the dhow. Try again. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:51:51 -0600, "Gilligan" scribbled thusly: OzOne wrote in message . .. I think you may be overlooking the dhow with it's lateen rigs from some 2000 years ago. You may be overlooking the fact the had no keel and sailed at best with the wind abeam, not into the wind. Show me proof. You may have overlooked the fact that many boats without keels have very good windward performance. My cats and dhows with leeboards included Question: if a square rig's sails could be turned 90 deg (with the wind abeam), and a centerboard or sideboard were dropped to resist sideways movement, and enough ballast were present to prevent capsize, could the boat move in a track that is more perpendicular relative to the wind? I.e., is it only the "lift" that makes a boat move forward when not going downwind? Scout - (prepares himself for 2 one word answers) |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Gilligan" wrote in message . ..
"Scout" wrote in message ... Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout Right you are Scout. The first heavy lift gliders came about before 1800. You can see that the technology existed in planes before it got around to sailboats. http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/...e/firstair.htm Most of the people here are not knowledgeable in the ways of science. It was once said that science was too important to be left for the scientists. But laymen have neither the training or the inclination for scientific thought. I will no longer sit back and allow non science opinion, non science indoctrination and the international non science conspiracy to sap and irrationalize our precious scientific thought. Have you ever seen a non scientist drink water? Distilled, pure, ion free water? That's right, your typical non scientist does not drink pure distilled water. Their precious bodily fluids are impure and their capacity for scientific thought is impaired. This all became apparent to me during the act of calculating. I assure you my scientific essence remains pure, though I deny non scientists the benefits of my calculations. It would not be difficult Mein Fuhrer! . . . I'm sorry, Mr. President. Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Scout wrote:
Question: if a square rig's sails could be turned 90 deg (with the wind abeam), and a centerboard or sideboard were dropped to resist sideways movement, and enough ballast were present to prevent capsize, could the boat move in a track that is more perpendicular relative to the wind? More perpedicular? More perpendicular than what? Since a square rigger can sail on a beam reach 90 deg to the wind without much problem, the answer would be no. You can't get any more perpendicular than 90 deg. Somehow I don't think this is what you are asking... I.e., is it only the "lift" that makes a boat move forward when not going downwind? No, there are other forces like current and waves that make the boat go in certain directions. Somehow I don't think this is what you are asking either... //Walt |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Scotty wrote:
OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter There are far too many Italian restaurants in the world anyway...and the preponderance serve bad food...I like Tuscan cuisine but finding food restaurants that serve it well is difficult... |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"katy" wrote in message ... Scotty wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter There are far too many Italian restaurants in the world anyway...and the preponderance serve bad food...I like Tuscan cuisine but finding food restaurants that serve it well is difficult... Ugh, ever been to an Olive Garden? there food is OK, a bit mediocre IMO, but there is always a line to get into the place. Guess nobody cooks anymore. Scotty |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Scotty wrote:
"katy" wrote in message ... Scotty wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter There are far too many Italian restaurants in the world anyway...and the preponderance serve bad food...I like Tuscan cuisine but finding food restaurants that serve it well is difficult... Ugh, ever been to an Olive Garden? there food is OK, a bit mediocre IMO, but there is always a line to get into the place. Guess nobody cooks anymore. Scotty Franchise restaurants very rarely have good food (IMO) When I go out to eat, I want the food to be worth the money I spent. You don't expect good food at Olive Garden, you just go there because it's convenient and cheap. Same goes for places like Appleby's and Fridays... |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:51:02 -0400, katy wrote: Scotty wrote: "katy" wrote in message ... Scotty wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter There are far too many Italian restaurants in the world anyway...and the preponderance serve bad food...I like Tuscan cuisine but finding food restaurants that serve it well is difficult... Ugh, ever been to an Olive Garden? there food is OK, a bit mediocre IMO, but there is always a line to get into the place. Guess nobody cooks anymore. Scotty Franchise restaurants very rarely have good food (IMO) When I go out to eat, I want the food to be worth the money I spent. You don't expect good food at Olive Garden, you just go there because it's convenient and cheap. Same goes for places like Appleby's and Fridays... You can't expect much from places where the "chefs" are high school kids working for minimum wage. CWM True. My in-laws used to hit those places almost every night when they retired. Thing was, their food was better than anything my m-i-l could prepare. You see many senior citizens who go that route...and the Jimmy Dean place...guess it's better than Meals on Wheels... |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Are you calling Oz a Pom?
"Scotty" wrote in message ... OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Joe" wrote in message ps.com... I think you may be overlooking the dhow with it's lateen rigs from some 2000 years ago. The ones sailing the Nile? Joe No, they are not dhows but are calle djaishers (?spelling). They have very high sailplans to catch the wind above the Nile's banks. Dhows are the ones sailing the trade route from the Persian Gulf to East Africa and back. They did not go to windward but waited until the monsoon changed around to give them a fair wind where they wanted to go. They were, and are, fast on a reach , but not much good to windward. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:51:02 -0400, katy wrote: Scotty wrote: "katy" wrote in message ... Scotty wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... Can I answer that in the morning, went to a new Italian restaurant opening tonight.. They won't survive........ Bad food or too expensive? The whine was good! you whine too much! Scooter There are far too many Italian restaurants in the world anyway...and the preponderance serve bad food...I like Tuscan cuisine but finding food restaurants that serve it well is difficult... Ugh, ever been to an Olive Garden? there food is OK, a bit mediocre IMO, but there is always a line to get into the place. Guess nobody cooks anymore. Scotty Franchise restaurants very rarely have good food (IMO) When I go out to eat, I want the food to be worth the money I spent. You don't expect good food at Olive Garden, you just go there because it's convenient and cheap. Same goes for places like Appleby's and Fridays... You can't expect much from places where the "chefs" are high school kids working for minimum wage. CWM The food was much better when oil field geologists and engineers where the chefs. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Edgar" wrote in message ... Dhows are the ones sailing the trade route from the Persian Gulf to East Africa and back. They did not go to windward but waited until the monsoon changed around to give them a fair wind where they wanted to go. They were, and are, fast on a reach , but not much good to windward. How could that be? The great and powerful Oz has spoken! Shall we pay no attention to the man behind the curtain? |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Walt" wrote in message
... Scout wrote: Question: if a square rig's sails could be turned 90 deg (with the wind abeam), and a centerboard or sideboard were dropped to resist sideways movement, and enough ballast were present to prevent capsize, could the boat move in a track that is more perpendicular relative to the wind? More perpedicular? More perpendicular than what? Since a square rigger can sail on a beam reach 90 deg to the wind without much problem, the answer would be no. You can't get any more perpendicular than 90 deg. Somehow I don't think this is what you are asking... Then that is my misunderstanding, I thought a square rigger could sail downwind only, or on a broad reach, at best. Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Scout wrote:
Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout So this discussion tweaked my curiosity about just how weatherly the old square riggers were. Some of the modern square riggers actually do fairly well, with modern sailcloth and yards setup for getting to about 45 degrees off the wind, with modest leeway. However, the old ships couldn't come close to this. There was certainly a huge variation, and many ships could not go upwind at all, but most of the ships made for exploration and general commerce (as opposed to specific routes) could go upwind to a limited degree. And there are famous stories of long and tedious beats to windward. But what was the standard? Texts from 200 years ago, such as Bowditch and Darcy, list six points as the closest you can make to the wind. This is 67.5 degrees. Some ships, such as the USS Constitution, were considered quite weatherly, and did somewhat better, perhaps as much as a point in ideal conditions, but this was a fairly recently development. And how much leeway? Bowditch summarizes several other earlier writers and claims: "1st. When a ship is Close-Hauled, with all her sails set, the water smooth, and a moderate gale of wind, she is then supposed to make little or no lee-way. 2d. Allow 1 point, when the top-gallant sails are taken in. 3d. Allow 2 points, when the top-sails must be close-reefed." And so on. So in ideal conditions, 6 points net off the wind might be held, but if sails have to be taken in, the leeway is 1 point (11 1/4 degrees) or more. Bowditch finishes the navigation text section of his book with an example journal of dead reckoning, "The journal of a Voyage from Boston to Madeira." It includes all of the log entries shown with speed, wind, and leeway estimates, along with notes on how to do the various computations. All of the close hauled sailing is at 6 points off the wind, with leeway estimates of zero, a half point, or a full point. When footed off to 7 points, generally there is no leeway, but a few entries list half a point. BTW, Bowditch was famous for the high accuracy of his dead reckoning, so this technique, although it seems crude, must be effective. Ans what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6 points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3 knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could be lost. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Jeff" wrote in message
. .. Scout wrote: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout So this discussion tweaked my curiosity about just how weatherly the old square riggers were. Some of the modern square riggers actually do fairly well, with modern sailcloth and yards setup for getting to about 45 degrees off the wind, with modest leeway. However, the old ships couldn't come close to this. There was certainly a huge variation, and many ships could not go upwind at all, but most of the ships made for exploration and general commerce (as opposed to specific routes) could go upwind to a limited degree. And there are famous stories of long and tedious beats to windward. But what was the standard? Texts from 200 years ago, such as Bowditch and Darcy, list six points as the closest you can make to the wind. This is 67.5 degrees. Some ships, such as the USS Constitution, were considered quite weatherly, and did somewhat better, perhaps as much as a point in ideal conditions, but this was a fairly recently development. And how much leeway? Bowditch summarizes several other earlier writers and claims: "1st. When a ship is Close-Hauled, with all her sails set, the water smooth, and a moderate gale of wind, she is then supposed to make little or no lee-way. 2d. Allow 1 point, when the top-gallant sails are taken in. 3d. Allow 2 points, when the top-sails must be close-reefed." And so on. So in ideal conditions, 6 points net off the wind might be held, but if sails have to be taken in, the leeway is 1 point (11 1/4 degrees) or more. Bowditch finishes the navigation text section of his book with an example journal of dead reckoning, "The journal of a Voyage from Boston to Madeira." It includes all of the log entries shown with speed, wind, and leeway estimates, along with notes on how to do the various computations. All of the close hauled sailing is at 6 points off the wind, with leeway estimates of zero, a half point, or a full point. When footed off to 7 points, generally there is no leeway, but a few entries list half a point. BTW, Bowditch was famous for the high accuracy of his dead reckoning, so this technique, although it seems crude, must be effective. Ans what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6 points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3 knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could be lost. Jeff, Thanks for the details - great reading! Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
Read Alan Villiers "The set of the sails" (qv.)
"My progress was one long dour beat. To wind'ard! To wind'ard! Day after day. week after week: sometimes after a week's hard beating I had made sixty miles..." "Jeff" wrote in message . .. Scout wrote: Read that somewhere recently. I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight? Scout So this discussion tweaked my curiosity about just how weatherly the old square riggers were. Some of the modern square riggers actually do fairly well, with modern sailcloth and yards setup for getting to about 45 degrees off the wind, with modest leeway. However, the old ships couldn't come close to this. There was certainly a huge variation, and many ships could not go upwind at all, but most of the ships made for exploration and general commerce (as opposed to specific routes) could go upwind to a limited degree. And there are famous stories of long and tedious beats to windward. But what was the standard? Texts from 200 years ago, such as Bowditch and Darcy, list six points as the closest you can make to the wind. This is 67.5 degrees. Some ships, such as the USS Constitution, were considered quite weatherly, and did somewhat better, perhaps as much as a point in ideal conditions, but this was a fairly recently development. And how much leeway? Bowditch summarizes several other earlier writers and claims: "1st. When a ship is Close-Hauled, with all her sails set, the water smooth, and a moderate gale of wind, she is then supposed to make little or no lee-way. 2d. Allow 1 point, when the top-gallant sails are taken in. 3d. Allow 2 points, when the top-sails must be close-reefed." And so on. So in ideal conditions, 6 points net off the wind might be held, but if sails have to be taken in, the leeway is 1 point (11 1/4 degrees) or more. Bowditch finishes the navigation text section of his book with an example journal of dead reckoning, "The journal of a Voyage from Boston to Madeira." It includes all of the log entries shown with speed, wind, and leeway estimates, along with notes on how to do the various computations. All of the close hauled sailing is at 6 points off the wind, with leeway estimates of zero, a half point, or a full point. When footed off to 7 points, generally there is no leeway, but a few entries list half a point. BTW, Bowditch was famous for the high accuracy of his dead reckoning, so this technique, although it seems crude, must be effective. Ans what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6 points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3 knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could be lost. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
That's what happens when you're too proud to fire up the engine!
Edgar wrote: Read Alan Villiers "The set of the sails" (qv.) "My progress was one long dour beat. To wind'ard! To wind'ard! Day after day. week after week: sometimes after a week's hard beating I had made sixty miles..." .... And what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6 points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3 knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could be lost. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
OzOne wrote in message ... On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 16:33:29 -0600, "Gilligan" scribbled thusly: "Edgar" wrote in message ... Dhows are the ones sailing the trade route from the Persian Gulf to East Africa and back. They did not go to windward but waited until the monsoon changed around to give them a fair wind where they wanted to go. They were, and are, fast on a reach , but not much good to windward. How could that be? The great and powerful Oz has spoken! Shall we pay no attention to the man behind the curtain? You're an obnoxious SOB aren't you!? Are you asking or telling? |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
|
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Gilligan" wrote in message
... http://www.siege-engine.com/seuss/taunters.jpg so you're saying a flying, diseased cow sparked the revolution if sail design? Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Scout" wrote in message . .. "Gilligan" wrote in message ... http://www.siege-engine.com/seuss/taunters.jpg so you're saying a flying, diseased cow sparked the revolution if sail design? Scout No thanks, we've already got one. Actually the Chinese Junk sails are the first use of a airfoil shape for sailing. The sails are battened. They can also sail into the wind. Aircraft wings are rigid, the are not loose fitting. Parachutes and paragliders are like that. Kites are rigid airfoils. The Chinese invented kites and human size gliders over 2500 years ago. I would say that theChinese airfoil designs may have influenced their sailboats. Another innovation using a foil is the fin keel and the articulated rudder of Antonius Flettner. These innovations happened about the time of modern flight. The notion that a diseased, rotted, flying cow ushered in any type of sailing innovation is udder nonsense. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Gilligan" wrote in message
. .. "Scout" wrote in message . .. "Gilligan" wrote in message ... http://www.siege-engine.com/seuss/taunters.jpg so you're saying a flying, diseased cow sparked the revolution if sail design? Scout No thanks, we've already got one. Actually the Chinese Junk sails are the first use of a airfoil shape for sailing. The sails are battened. They can also sail into the wind. Aircraft wings are rigid, the are not loose fitting. Parachutes and paragliders are like that. Kites are rigid airfoils. The Chinese invented kites and human size gliders over 2500 years ago. I would say that theChinese airfoil designs may have influenced their sailboats. Another innovation using a foil is the fin keel and the articulated rudder of Antonius Flettner. These innovations happened about the time of modern flight. The notion that a diseased, rotted, flying cow ushered in any type of sailing innovation is udder nonsense. I hear the Chinese like gliding off their big wall. It was considered good luck to yell "I fart in your general direction!" before jumping. I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Scout" wrote in message ... I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. Scout Think of this. The sail has the most power delivered to it when the residual wind velocity is zero after interacting with the sail. Any leftover wind velocity is wasted energy, just like left over stean in a steam engine. The most efficient sail design reuses the wind velocity, similar to the stages on a turbine engine. The most efficient sail design of all time was developed in Northern Italy. The design was lost during the early Renaissance, only to be recently uncovered during and archeological dig in a shallow bay. The sails reused the wind many times over with each "stage" adjusted for the reduced wind velocity. The sails are a series of "slats" with multiple gaps and adjustable angles of attack. They are referred to as Venetian Sails. |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Gilligan" wrote in message
. .. "Scout" wrote in message ... I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. Scout Think of this. The sail has the most power delivered to it when the residual wind velocity is zero after interacting with the sail. Any leftover wind velocity is wasted energy, just like left over stean in a steam engine. The most efficient sail design reuses the wind velocity, similar to the stages on a turbine engine. The most efficient sail design of all time was developed in Northern Italy. The design was lost during the early Renaissance, only to be recently uncovered during and archeological dig in a shallow bay. The sails reused the wind many times over with each "stage" adjusted for the reduced wind velocity. The sails are a series of "slats" with multiple gaps and adjustable angles of attack. They are referred to as Venetian Sails. One would think that the sheer volume of air would make its efficient use a non-issue. Unless the point is the area of the cross-section of air available to a given size boat is limited. If that makes any sense. Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions
creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. When you say "experimenting with different fluids" do you mean like sulfur dioxide? Does it increase or decrease the efficiency of sails? Think of this. The sail has the most power delivered to it when the residual wind velocity is zero after interacting with the sail. I think that's a mistaken assumption. The sail has the most power delivered to it when it is developing max differential pressure theoretically possible for it's density & initial velocity. The most efficient sail design reuses the wind velocity, similar to the stages on a turbine engine. True. That's why the America's Cup racers all have to be limited by rule as for how many masts they can rig. It got to be a PITA inventing new terms for the fifteenth & sixteenth mizzen. The most efficient sail design of all time was developed in Northern Italy. The design was lost during the early Renaissance, only to be recently uncovered during and archeological dig in a shallow bay. The sails reused the wind many times over with each "stage" adjusted for the reduced wind velocity. The sails are a series of "slats" with multiple gaps and adjustable angles of attack. They are referred to as Venetian Sails. Now that was a very illuminating little essay Scout wrote: One would think that the sheer volume of air would make its efficient use a non-issue. Unless the point is the area of the cross-section of air available to a given size boat is limited. If that makes any sense. Congrats, you've re-invented the term "sail area" ;) Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"DSK" wrote in message
. .. I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. When you say "experimenting with different fluids" do you mean like sulfur dioxide? Does it increase or decrease the efficiency of sails? Think of this. The sail has the most power delivered to it when the residual wind velocity is zero after interacting with the sail. I think that's a mistaken assumption. The sail has the most power delivered to it when it is developing max differential pressure theoretically possible for it's density & initial velocity. The most efficient sail design reuses the wind velocity, similar to the stages on a turbine engine. True. That's why the America's Cup racers all have to be limited by rule as for how many masts they can rig. It got to be a PITA inventing new terms for the fifteenth & sixteenth mizzen. The most efficient sail design of all time was developed in Northern Italy. The design was lost during the early Renaissance, only to be recently uncovered during and archeological dig in a shallow bay. The sails reused the wind many times over with each "stage" adjusted for the reduced wind velocity. The sails are a series of "slats" with multiple gaps and adjustable angles of attack. They are referred to as Venetian Sails. Now that was a very illuminating little essay Scout wrote: One would think that the sheer volume of air would make its efficient use a non-issue. Unless the point is the area of the cross-section of air available to a given size boat is limited. If that makes any sense. Congrats, you've re-invented the term "sail area" ;) Fresh Breezes- Doug King Welcome back Doug! By "experimenting with different fluids" I meant air and water, but in Gilly's case, he may need to understand the subtleties of sulfur sailing on the lava lakes! Scout |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"DSK" wrote in message . .. I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. When you say "experimenting with different fluids" do you mean like sulfur dioxide? Does it increase or decrease the efficiency of sails? The USS Constitution demonstrated that in light air, the speed of the ship could be increased by spraying water on the sails. Documented he http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/e...a/const-es.htm Not only that the USS Constitution clearly demonstrated she could sail directly into the wind: http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...955_3_56.shtml If that is not enough, here the USS Constitution is the first US warship to to have propellers: http://www.usni.org/navalhistory/art...ingtonApr.html Think of this. The sail has the most power delivered to it when the residual wind velocity is zero after interacting with the sail. I think that's a mistaken assumption. The sail has the most power delivered to it when it is developing max differential pressure theoretically possible for it's density & initial velocity. The maximum pressure differential occurs for any given windspeed when the airspeed on the low pressure side of the sail is zero. If the velocity on the "low pressure side" equals the velocity on the high pressure side there is no lift. The most efficient sail design reuses the wind velocity, similar to the stages on a turbine engine. True. That's why the America's Cup racers all have to be limited by rule as for how many masts they can rig. It got to be a PITA inventing new terms for the fifteenth & sixteenth mizzen. They should be allowed to put masts out the sides. The most efficient sail design of all time was developed in Northern Italy. The design was lost during the early Renaissance, only to be recently uncovered during and archeological dig in a shallow bay. The sails reused the wind many times over with each "stage" adjusted for the reduced wind velocity. The sails are a series of "slats" with multiple gaps and adjustable angles of attack. They are referred to as Venetian Sails. Now that was a very illuminating little essay Glaring, indeed. Scout wrote: One would think that the sheer volume of air would make its efficient use a non-issue. Unless the point is the area of the cross-section of air available to a given size boat is limited. If that makes any sense. Congrats, you've re-invented the term "sail area" ;) Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
modern sails spun off mechanical flight technology?
"Scout" wrote in message . .. "DSK" wrote in message . .. I guess once people got the idea of fluid movement around restrictions creating usable pressure differentials, it became just a matter of experimenting with different shapes and fluids. When you say "experimenting with different fluids" do you mean like sulfur dioxide? Does it increase or decrease the efficiency of sails? Think of this. The sail has the most power delivered to it when the residual wind velocity is zero after interacting with the sail. I think that's a mistaken assumption. The sail has the most power delivered to it when it is developing max differential pressure theoretically possible for it's density & initial velocity. The most efficient sail design reuses the wind velocity, similar to the stages on a turbine engine. True. That's why the America's Cup racers all have to be limited by rule as for how many masts they can rig. It got to be a PITA inventing new terms for the fifteenth & sixteenth mizzen. The most efficient sail design of all time was developed in Northern Italy. The design was lost during the early Renaissance, only to be recently uncovered during and archeological dig in a shallow bay. The sails reused the wind many times over with each "stage" adjusted for the reduced wind velocity. The sails are a series of "slats" with multiple gaps and adjustable angles of attack. They are referred to as Venetian Sails. Now that was a very illuminating little essay Scout wrote: One would think that the sheer volume of air would make its efficient use a non-issue. Unless the point is the area of the cross-section of air available to a given size boat is limited. If that makes any sense. Congrats, you've re-invented the term "sail area" ;) Fresh Breezes- Doug King Welcome back Doug! By "experimenting with different fluids" I meant air and water, but in Gilly's case, he may need to understand the subtleties of sulfur sailing on the lava lakes! Scout Don't forget lava can be considered a liquid too. |
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