Hey Oz--
 

Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.


.... By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.



Joe wrote:
Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together.

Talk is cheap, Joe. You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves. Many had 40' of
breaker on top. They were unusually steep because of a
countering current... no surfing, you'd just fall from the
crest straight down. From what I have read, it was a more
violent storm than a U.S. east coast (or gulf) hurricane.



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.


Now there, I agree totally.

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.


.... By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.



Joe wrote:
Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together.

Talk is cheap, Joe.

What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves.

The size is not as important and spacing IMO

Many had 40' of
breaker on top.

well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.


They were unusually steep because of a
countering current... no surfing, you'd just fall from the
crest straight down. From what I have read, it was a more
violent storm than a U.S. east coast (or gulf) hurricane.

Rita produced 98 fters and Cat 5 winds.



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.


Now there, I agree totally.

And that is my whole beef...There are some things which cannot be
learned quickly or bought, and time.....which is all we have.......
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.

Joe



DSK

Hey Oz--
 

Talk is cheap, Joe.


Joe wrote:
What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.


Or guys who like to call themselves "Captain" because they
can wrote a check.

... You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves.


The size is not as important and spacing IMO



Right,and by all reports the '98 Hobart storm (as mentioned
earlier) were viciously steep & close together. The worst
were generated over a shallow area with a tidal current
running counter to the wind.





Rita produced 98 fters and Cat 5 winds.


One anecdote from the '98 Hobart storm was that one of the
rescue helicopters was flying low, trying to spot one of the
yachts, had SAR crewman leaning out the hatch looking
down... suddenly he pulled his head in and yelled "PULL UP!"
The pilot, seeing 110' on his altimeter, did so anyway by
reflex and felt the top of a wave grab the wheels as it went
under them.

Generally, people were too busy to take accurate
measurements of waves. Once they get higher than the mast,
what's the point?



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

Now there, I agree totally.

And that is my whole beef...There are some things which cannot be
learned quickly or bought, and time.....which is all we have.......
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.


Yep. But on the other hand, gaining mastery of a difficult &
complex subject is time well spent.

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Maxprop wrote:
We plan to take another look at the boat we're considering, possibly this
coming weekend. If so, I'll take a few shots of Sayonara and email 'em
to you.


OK
It would be interesting to hear a boat shopping report too.

If it comes to fruition, I'll post a full report. No point getting the cart
before the horse. We have several hurdles to clear with the current owner
before it's a done deal.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

Maxprop wrote:


I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

I assure you the layfette Skiff is lighter buildt than an Maxi,

Hmmm. I'd doubt that. I saw the photo you provided, and the skiff looked
to be a work boat, which are generally built for the long haul = stout.

infact
as I mentioned I was out with the owner right before I bought the boat,
as the seas buildt he wanted to transfer to an oil rig and ditch the
boat,

I'd have thought that would be more a decision based upon length,
displacement, and seakindliness than construction integrity.

Knowing it was going to extreamly dangerious to try to get on a
rig I told him then and there if he did I was going to claim salvage on
the boat and not give him a penney for it...

Yup. I would have done similarly under the circumstances.

I've been through hurricane-force winds and
very closely-spaced seas of 30' or more on a 767' bulk freighter
(sistership
to the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald), but never felt that my life was in
jeopardy.


Why would you in 30 ftrs on a 767ft ship?

My wife and I booked passage on a bulk freighter out of Burns Harbor, IN,
upbound for Duluth, MN, two years ago. It was an amazing experience, but
the weather got quite nasty on Lake Superior for the last third of the trip.
Even a few experienced crewmen became ill.


Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm. By converse reasoning it
would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion
of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.

Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain.

That may very well be. Many said he had no business being on that boat.
Oh, except that he owned it. But the storm was the worst ever, IIRC, in
Sydney-Hobart history.

He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together. You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

IIRC, Larry kept his feelings to himself. After winning the race, he
compared his impressions with those of his crew and many others apparently
felt they would not survive the storm, either. But you are basically right
about rich boys who like to play at ocean racing--they get what they want
with a check, not with qualifications.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that. Sayonara was fast enough to
beat the worst of the storm. The heavy Winston Churchill wasn't, sadly.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...


What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

I don't recall that Ellison behaved any differently than anyone else on his
boat. In fact, I believe one of his crew were injured and he was very
concerned for his well being.


The size is not as important and spacing IMO

I doubt if most professional sailors would entirely agree.


well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.

I believe the crew of the Andrea Gale witnessed something like that rather
near the end of their lives.


Max

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
"Joe" wrote
.... Terry(my
wife) rode out Hurricane alicia on a 60 ft shrimpboat that had every
port and window smashed in with every wave putting at least a ft of
water in the wheelhose, waves in the 40 -60 ft range.


Sounds exciting. One thing I have noticed about most shrimpers, they do
believe in have good pumps aboard.


Maxprop wrote:
I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

Interesting way to put it. But it also reveals a fallacy in thinking about
the issue of structural integrity of boats (or any vehicle).

In basic physics, when you're figuring out how much force is generated (or
absorbed in an impact), velocity is squared. In boats this means that
going 10 knots generates four times the force of going 5 knots. Another
side of the problem is that impact loads are spread over time... hitting
waves faster means higher peak loads on the structure.

So maxi racers are far from underbuilt. They are built very very strong,
if not they would crumble from the forces generated in driving them under
normal sailing conditions. Successful racing boats are generally built
much stronger than cruising boats... they are also subjected to
exponentially higher forces. This is why the structural failures on racing
boats tend to be more sudden & dramatic... like the difference between a
2400psi express header multi-fuel boiler and 60psi fire tube boiler with a
wood furnace built into one end.

How many cruising boats sailed through the '98 Hobart Race storm?

I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.
Considering the force of the wind and the speed at which boats plunged off
those monstrous, steep waves, the forces applied to hull and rig were
exponentially greater than what might be normally encountered in typical
"bad" weather.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

Maxprop wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...


What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

I don't recall that Ellison behaved any differently than anyone else on his
boat. In fact, I believe one of his crew were injured and he was very
concerned for his well being.


Well he should be.....

The size is not as important and spacing IMO

I doubt if most professional sailors would entirely agree.

What pro sailors?




well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.

I believe the crew of the Andrea Gale witnessed something like that rather
near the end of their lives.

zYou have watched to much dumb **** TV...sorry.

Joe
Max

Hey Oz--
 

You have a good point Joe. Lots of people have
the money for boats they don't have the skills to
merit.

I see it all the time. The one that first comes to mind
is a Baltic 44 owner dressed up in what he thought
were yachtsman cloths. He had hired a skipper to bring
his boat to Bermuda and then, when he took over was
afraid to leave in a perfect weather window. I'm sure
I told you that story.

You could see the gas coming out of him when
he said he was waiting for a good weather window
and people were choking back the laughter.

Ellison is, I've heard, a good sailor. He certainly knows
how to build a boat. He is smart. I would not place him
in that pompous category. And I don't blame him a bit for
not coming back, except that it seems that when you have
that much money invested in a project, you HAVE to follow
through and race, even if perhaps you should bail out. Ellison
places more pressure on himself than anyone else ever could.

I admire the guy. I'd like to meet him.

Joe wrote:
Geeeze, what a bunch of pussies.

But that shows you many men who can afford Hoybart yachts are lubber's
to start with, who bought thier way to sea. To bad not many real
sailors can afford 60 ft ocean sleads.

Hey Oz--
 

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_19/b3680008.htm

Larry Ellison's Brush with Death aboard Sayonara
''We certainly thought it was possible we wouldn't make it''

For Oracle Corp. Chairman Lawrence J. Ellison, competing head-to-head
with the likes of Microsoft Chairman William H. Gates III in the
roiling software industry isn't enough of a thrill. For extra kicks, he
races yachts on the high seas. But when a typhoon struck during a
sailing race off the coast of Australia in December, 1998, it was
anything but fun for Ellison or his compatriots. Six sailors from other
boats died. While the worst injuries sustained on his 78-foot Sayonara
were broken bones, Ellison was shaken by the experience. He went on to
win that race, and he has sailed competitively since. But he has rarely
talked in detail about what it was like to nearly lose everything. We
asked if the experience had changed him. Here is Ellison's answer:

It shook up all 24 of us. That crew was the same crew that was on Black
Magic, which won the America's Cup for New Zealand [in 1995]. It's an
amazingly professional crew. All those guys were shook up. I've known
for a long time that life is glorious and fragile and short. This
reemphasized it -- it didn't really change me.

It was amazing. We certainly thought it was possible we wouldn't make
it. The waves were 40-feet high. They were vertical. They were walls.
If you didn't wear a cable, you'd just be blown off the back of the
boat. There were four guys with broken bones. We were driving onto this
thing. If you didn't let go of the wheel, it would be pulled off the
pedestal. You let go and grabbed back onto the wheel.

UP AN ELEVATOR. You'd just bury yourself in the wave. It was like going
up an elevator. Normally, the dangerous part of a wave is sliding down
the back. You start surfing. You can actually turn side-on and roll the
boat. But we didn't have that problem. The back of the wave was so
steep that you'd just exit the wave and fall straight down like a ball
in an elevator shaft -- one, one thousand; two, one thousand; three,
one thousand. Crash! It was like being dropped off a four-story
building onto asphalt every 45 seconds. That happened for three hours.
It was very bad.

We thought we'd break the bow, lose a rudder. Any number of things
could have caused us to sink. We had such a huge lead in the race. We
were far off the coast. If we went into the water, the closest thing
would have been a Navy frigate 24 hours away. We would have had about
an hour of life in water that cold.

There wasn't palpable fear on the boat. You're so busy doing your job
that there's no time to think about dying. The end was incredible. No
sleep for three days. No eating for three days. You arrive in the
Derwent. It's a river on the way up to the capital of Tasmania, Hobart.
It's a short sail up there. It's a beautiful sunrise. The sky is pink
and amber and Prussian blue. It's gorgeous. There's heather on the
hills. It's a Scottish community. A small boat pulls up next to you,
and with bagpipes, greets the winner. Incredibly somber bagpipe music
is playing. Gorgeous sunrise. Beautiful.

TOUGH GUYS CRYING. It's something I'll never forget in my entire life.
The glory, the wonder of being alive. The boat coasts in. The thing
about New Zealand sailors -- most American sailors are kind of preppy,
wealthy kids, but in New Zealand there are more sailboats than there
are cars. Everyone sails. It's a blue-collar sport. These are tough
guys -- rugby players, car mechanics. They're professional sailors.
They're a little bit older: mid-30s. They were expressionless from
exhaustion.

We arrive at the dock and everyone sees their wife or girlfriend. There
was not a single dry eye among all those very tough guys. It was an
amazing moment. I'll never forget the experience. And the explanation
contained therein of what it means to be a human being. It was
incredible. But philosophically changed? Have I changed my life? Do I
do things differently? No. Not really. I sure love those guys though.

By Steve Hamm in New York

Hey Oz--
 

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ellison is, I've heard, a good sailor. He certainly knows
how to build a boat. He is smart. I would not place him
in that pompous category. And I don't blame him a bit for
not coming back,

Nor do I, Bart. Larry E. won the Hobart in '98, and considering the typical
lousy weather every year during that event, I'd pass on it, too. One win
would suffice. There are other mountains to scale.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

Don't you think it would have been more fun
to surf that boat downwind in that storm?

I think they could have kept it between the
waves. Obviously, there would be less apparent
wind too.

It would have been interesting to know how his
description would have changed if they had
changed tactics.

Maxprop wrote:
Nor do I, Bart. Larry E. won the Hobart in '98, and considering the typical
lousy weather every year during that event, I'd pass on it, too. One win
would suffice. There are other mountains to scale.

Hey Oz--
 

Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Considering the force of the wind and the speed at which boats plunged off
those monstrous, steep waves, the forces applied to hull and rig were
exponentially greater than what might be normally encountered in typical
"bad" weather.


And those tremendous forces were due to conditions, not the
design or build of the boats. *Any* vessel would be
stressed, any small (by which I mean 50 tons & less)
cruising sailboat probably would have fared worse. As you
pointed out, the closest thing to a crab-crusher in that
fleet sank.

Most of the skippers in that fleet were sailors of long
experience. They were sailing superbly equipped boats with
skilled crews. Once the game becomes survival (which becamse
apparent to all fairly soon), then if would have been better
to lie-to a sea anchor, or run bare poles with a drogue,
they'd have done that (IIRC a few did use drogues for a
while at the peak of the storm).

Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.

Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh
Hardly a racing vessel but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.

In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.
Better I'd motored away from the storm and say screw the race, it's
just a game no one is at risk unless they put themselfs at risk.

Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.

Joe


DSK

Hey Oz--
 

Joe wrote:
DSK wrote:
Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.

Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh
opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu

Hardly a racing vessel but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.

In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.
Better I'd motored away from the storm and say screw the race, it's
just a game no one is at risk unless they put themselfs at risk.

Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.

Joe


DSK

Hey Oz--
 

The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Joe wrote:
Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh

opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu


You been paying attention at all? Did you read my post about
rescuing guys off an oil platform in the North Sea? That was
the time waves were ripping 2" welded fittings off the deck.





Hardly a racing vessel

Ya think?
I wonder what the PHRF rating is?

but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.



Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.


A lot of boats were too far out into the Bass Strait to come
back and anchor. Probably would have if they could have.



In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.


You must not be paying attention, or else your Boosprit
gland is being hyperactive.

These guys weren't dumb. These guys weren't ill-equipped. If
they would have been better off under drogue, they would
have been.

Get it thru your head Joe... the sea is powerful enough to
destroy any vessel. Storms have sunk U.S. Navy warships...
not often, thank goodness. But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.


Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.


Yeah, like the weather forecast is always 100% accurate.

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:45:53 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98
Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that. Sayonara was fast enough
to
beat the worst of the storm. The heavy Winston Churchill wasn't, sadly.

Max

That's true.
IIRC, Sayonara was the furthest boat out to sea and ahead of the
fleet.
The main inpact of the storm slipped inside her and caught the bulk of
the fleet.

Considering the beating that Sayonara took, the rest of the fleet must have
thought they'd died and gone to hell.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...


And those tremendous forces were due to conditions, not the design or
build of the boats. *Any* vessel would be stressed, any small (by which I
mean 50 tons & less) cruising sailboat probably would have fared worse.

I'm not sure how you can infer this. What's your rationale?

As you pointed out, the closest thing to a crab-crusher in that fleet
sank.

She was a wooden boat, for starters. And apparently some planks were sprung
and leaking prior to the race. She should never have left port.


Most of the skippers in that fleet were sailors of long experience. They
were sailing superbly equipped boats with skilled crews. Once the game
becomes survival (which becamse apparent to all fairly soon), then if
would have been better to lie-to a sea anchor, or run bare poles with a
drogue, they'd have done that (IIRC a few did use drogues for a while at
the peak of the storm).

I'm doubtful that even lying ahull or riding a sea anchor would have
provided much benefit in a storm of that magnitude.


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally considered a
gung-ho racing tactic ;)

But an infinitely preferable survival tactic. I'd have been pulling for the
cut and run option, has I been aboard.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
"Joe" wrote
.... Terry(my
wife) rode out Hurricane alicia on a 60 ft shrimpboat that had every
port and window smashed in with every wave putting at least a ft of
water in the wheelhose, waves in the 40 -60 ft range.


Sounds exciting. One thing I have noticed about most
shrimpers, they do believe in have good pumps aboard.


It was an ice boat, so had massave PTO pumps off the main. The
Capt/owner about 6-8 mo later was in the engine room and the boat
exploded, So bad an explosion it blew the decks and cabin off the
boat..needless to say he died a few days later...he was Terry's first
husband. She said the boat was 85 ft not 60.


Maxprop wrote:
I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

Interesting way to put it. But it also reveals a fallacy in
thinking about the issue of structural integrity of boats
(or any vehicle).

In basic physics, when you're figuring out how much force is
generated (or absorbed in an impact), velocity is squared.
In boats this means that going 10 knots generates four times
the force of going 5 knots. Another side of the problem is
that impact loads are spread over time... hitting waves
faster means higher peak loads on the structure.

So maxi racers are far from underbuilt. They are built very
very strong, if not they would crumble from the forces
generated in driving them under normal sailing conditions.
Successful racing boats are generally built much stronger
than cruising boats... they are also subjected to
exponentially higher forces. This is why the structural
failures on racing boats tend to be more sudden &
dramatic... like the difference between a 2400psi express
header multi-fuel boiler and 60psi fire tube boiler with a
wood furnace built into one end.

Tell that to team Philips remember that huge cat?

Joe

How many cruising boats sailed through the '98 Hobart Race
storm?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Joe wrote:
Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh

opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu


You been paying attention at all? Did you read my post about
rescuing guys off an oil platform in the North Sea?

Yeah I read it, and I read you think the only vessels made for extreme
weather are submarines. Oil platforms stand still, they do not give, so
they rip. I was paying attention.

Example: When the Ocean Ranger went down in the Hyberina field a
supply boat was on location and suffered no damage, rescued a few guys,
but lost most to hypothermia. There is an old saying in the N. Sea" The
sea is poision, you drink it your going to die, you fall in it your
going to die, and if you work on it your going to die"

That was
the time waves were ripping 2" welded fittings off the deck.





Hardly a racing vessel

Ya think?

Well I take that back, I've raced a many of em..anytime two boats are
going the same way it's a race....right ;0)

I wonder what the PHRF rating is?

but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.

The fleet tugs are just as stout. Same builders.



Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.


A lot of boats were too far out into the Bass Strait to come
back and anchor. Probably would have if they could have.



In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.


You must not be paying attention, or else your Boosprit
gland is being hyperactive.

These guys weren't dumb. These guys weren't ill-equipped. If
they would have been better off under drogue, they would
have been.

Get it thru your head Joe... the sea is powerful enough to
destroy any vessel. Storms have sunk U.S. Navy warships...
not often, thank goodness. But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.

I never said anything like that...is your bubbles gland impacted?


Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.


Yeah, like the weather forecast is always 100% accurate.

Doug...it's a game they were playing, some lost. But when people kick
off with sprung planks, fragile bulb keelers, ect for the open ocean in
an area famous for bad weather bad knowing it's going to be 50kt's and
building stuff is going to happen. Even here during the Harvest moon
that we race, it amazes me some of the crap people take offshore, and
some of the idiots that it's plain and clear that the only time they
sail is racing, it's more about gagets, matching suits, and big bucks.
Last Harvest moon a fellow de-masted trying to get out the jetties fer
crikes sake, another about 40 miles south, one ran up on the
beachrunning a rumb line. And like the Hobart the harvest is known for
it's foul weather, mid Oct here is when the really strong northerners
start training thru.

You say these guys are good sailors, and your right for the
billionaires they can buy guys who sail for a living, but the average
millionaires are using friends ect and I'm sure most have less time at
sea..... than the time needed to get a 6 pack ticket.

Joe



DSK

Hey Oz--
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:06:43 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


Considering the beating that Sayonara took, the rest of the fleet must
have
thought they'd died and gone to hell.

Max

It was one of the most intense storme ever recorded on the coast...it
was much worse at sea.

A mate of mine is a Sea King chopper pilot. he was touched by a wave
when hovering just under 100' off the wet deck.
He had a man on the string at the time and thought he'd lost him.
The chopper landed after a couple of hours duty with the engine
intakes so clogged with salt that they needed to divert to another
closer landing site because power had dropped well below critical
levels.

I have a lot of respect for the blokes that fly those rescue choppers. That
must be one sphincter-clinching experience.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

Joe wrote:
Well I take that back, I've raced a many of em..anytime two boats are
going the same way it's a race....right ;0)


Agreed



Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.


The fleet tugs are just as stout. Same builders.


I don't know if the fleet tugs are built to the same
standard of having to withstand explosions; but anyway they
would have an advantage in seaworthiness over a warship
because they would not have large heavy radars & weapons on
the deck & superstructure.... better stability.





... But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.


I never said anything like that...

Yes, you did Joe. Perhaps you weren't paying attention, but
you used that exact word (which is why I used it).



Doug...it's a game they were playing, some lost. But when people kick
off with sprung planks, fragile bulb keelers

"Fragile bulb keelers" that happen to be much stronger than
your boat, yeah.

FWIW I agree that if the WINSTON CHURCHILL was leaking at
the dock, she should not have set off.

... ect for the open ocean in
an area famous for bad weather bad knowing it's going to be 50kt's and
building stuff is going to happen. Even here during the Harvest moon
that we race, it amazes me some of the crap people take offshore, and
some of the idiots that it's plain and clear that the only time they
sail is racing, it's more about gagets, matching suits, and big bucks.

Yes, for some it is. They're easy to spot. But it certainly
is not true of all racing sailors.




You say these guys are good sailors, and your right for the
billionaires they can buy guys who sail for a living

Most of the fleet is middle or working class guys who own
shares of the boat they are sailing on. Perhaps you have
gotten the idea that the Sydney-Hobart race is all maxi
sleds? It isn't.


... but the average
millionaires are using friends ect and I'm sure most have less time at
sea..... than the time needed to get a 6 pack ticket.


Frankly I would rate the seamanship of a guy who regularly
races offshore as *MUCH* higher than that of a guy whose
main claim is that he has a 6-pac license. After all, look
at how bad most people drive, and they all have licenses. ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King