silverback wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message

But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is
the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock?
Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it
away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push.

What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no
more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be
completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my
statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket
denouncement.

If you read my original comment about the forces, it was not a
denouncement, its was a statement of fact. Yes, those forces included
some yaw, but Ellen was talking about hauling the boat sideways to the
wind. If I could do it with my 25 footer (and I was truly a skinny
wimp back then) I have no doubt that a stronger person could do it
with a 30 footer. Its just not easy.


I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all.
Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't
like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind
on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent
searoom is a recipe for disaster.

I have no doubt that you can construct a scenario where it would be
the preferred method. But it would have to be very constrained if the
wind was on the bow. You should need more than a boatlength to get
the boat going. And, in that thread, we were specifically talking
about Ellen's boat, which is a tad smaller than a Rhodes 19. I've
sailed them off the dock hundreds of times, in all manner or
conditions, without drama.


Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and smartly
executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To arrbitrarily
denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state that any vessel
can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to superior sailing
skills is ludicrous.

I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you
describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have
a workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to
maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction.

There's a large boat at my marina that sits at the end of a dock and
sets his anchor to hold him off. While it makes sense in strong
winds, it's an annoyance to have an anchor line sticking out all the time.


I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor
and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand
is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any
experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a
resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered
illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a
pompous little asshole.

He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that.


To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under sail
is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when
planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I can
tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions required it
because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground tackle to sail
into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most secure method to
undertake the required positioning to execute that maneuver.

Yes, I had to do that once.


Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have
used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels
ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife
requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate
it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the
curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it.

Indeed, another instructor who had never done it.


Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling.
Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This
isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel
to compliment the ground tackle aboard.

Kedging off a sandbank or setting a second anchor is a pretty common
thing, but as I've said, I've never seen a small boat do it from the dock.


Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a while.


I'm going sailing, eventually.

"Jeff" wrote in message
I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you
describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a
workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to
maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction.

Oddly enough Jeff... neither had I until I was faced with a season of
sailing without auxilliary. It had been explained to me by the fishermen I
worked with as a youth and I also remembered the advise given me by my
betters about planning departure/arrivals and having a back-up plan to that.
I practised the manuevers and familiarized myself with the capabilities and
limitations of my vessel. I realized that year that an auxilliary was much
like any other conveinience aboard a boat. Not required but easier. I think
every course in sailing should incorporate a large portion on boat handling
without an engine. This is not currently taught that I know of and it leads
to opinions like Ganz's.

He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that.

I only agree that it isn't taught.... Jon's position is that it is
arbitarily inconsequential... that is the idiotic statement that I take
offense to. Instead of trying to learn... he condemns and preaches about a
subject he has no experience with. He displays his ignorance as a badge of
merit.

I'm going sailing, eventually.

Good for you... I've just secured a mooring and storage at Shining Waters
Marina for when I return from the work site. They have a travel lift and so
I won't have to endure the cluster**** of a crane launch. It will also allow
me to extend my sailing time. Maybe I'll get to do some winter sailing this
year. I love sailing in a fresh snowfall. Then again I'm Canadian so cold
weather isn't the impediment it is to you southern sailors. :-)

CM

Jeff, you're debating someone who will eventually start calling you names as
soon as you disagree with him a couple of more times. You know that right?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:nRcPg.28914$E67.11290@clgrps13...

"Jeff" wrote in message
I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you
describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a
workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to
maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction.

Oddly enough Jeff... neither had I until I was faced with a season of
sailing without auxilliary. It had been explained to me by the fishermen I
worked with as a youth and I also remembered the advise given me by my
betters about planning departure/arrivals and having a back-up plan to
that. I practised the manuevers and familiarized myself with the
capabilities and limitations of my vessel. I realized that year that an
auxilliary was much like any other conveinience aboard a boat. Not
required but easier. I think every course in sailing should incorporate a
large portion on boat handling without an engine. This is not currently
taught that I know of and it leads to opinions like Ganz's.

He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that.

I only agree that it isn't taught.... Jon's position is that it is
arbitarily inconsequential... that is the idiotic statement that I take
offense to. Instead of trying to learn... he condemns and preaches about a
subject he has no experience with. He displays his ignorance as a badge of
merit.

I'm going sailing, eventually.

Good for you... I've just secured a mooring and storage at Shining Waters
Marina for when I return from the work site. They have a travel lift and
so I won't have to endure the cluster**** of a crane launch. It will also
allow me to extend my sailing time. Maybe I'll get to do some winter
sailing this year. I love sailing in a fresh snowfall. Then again I'm
Canadian so cold weather isn't the impediment it is to you southern
sailors. :-)

CM