"Capt. JG" wrote
| Poor Mooron. He has so much anger. So far, he can't do anything but call
| people bad names.



Maybe some people deserve to be called bad names. Your not exactly acting
like a gentleman ya know. I think CM makes a lot more sense than you do. I can tell
your just a beginner compared to him. You say some dumb things and expect people
not to question you. Duh! You should listen to him. He might be exaggerating a little
but he's basically right about how easy it is to haul a boat up by the anchor line.
It's hard to get it going but once its going it tends to keep going for a while. You
just add some steady pull and it goes right along. Then, like he says. If it really
is too hard you can use a winch or windlass.

Cheers,
Ellen

silverback wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message

The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is
about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up.

That statement is without fact, merit nor credence.

I'm just quoting from the ABYC ground tackle load table.

Actually, if you can keep the boat aligned perfectly to the wind, the
wind would be load would be a lot less, but the anchor loading table
assumes a fair amount of yaw. On the other hand, if you're hauling
the boat out and a gust comes in from 20 degrees off line ...

And the force of the sails must be considerable, and would add to the
tendency to yaw.

I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One
of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded
anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I
could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that
was probably 500 pounds on the rode.

A complete load of hogwash Jeff. Even if the forces approched such herculean
parameters.... the winches would compensate easily.

Ah, winches! I thought you were doing this hand over hand! Yes, give
me a fulcrum ...



I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to
overcome is inertia....
With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are
probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't
going to do much.

What is it about inertia you people can't seem top fathom? Once the vessel
starts moving in a direction it is easier to maintain that movement. It's
not a matter of strenght... it's a matter of smarts

There is no way a 30 or even 40 ft sailboat places a 700lb static load to a
mooring when into the wind. Surge loads are not viable for this equation
since they can be timed out.

Actually, its the yaw that increases the projected area to create the
high force. Surge was not included, but Van Dorn and others predict
surge in storm doubles the loading again. Of course, I hope you're
not doing this in a storm surge, but any surge (or current) would not
help the inertia thing at all.

Its actually pretty easy to see it for a larger boat: the frontal area
gets up over 100 feet. Add another 40 or 50 for the mast, rigging,
lifelines. Drag coefficient is easily 1, may higher for a cruising
boat. Dynamic pressure is 3 pounds per square foot at 30 knots. So
before we consider yaw or the sails we're up to 450 pounds or more.

BTW, Dynamic pressure goes down to 1.3 lb/ft**2 in 20 knots, so if its
just gusting to 30, then this gets a lot easier.

And I did admit that there probably was a way to do it. Its just not
as easy is you make it sound.


Now here is the kicker Jeff... I indeed have hand over handed my 6 ton
sailboat into 30 kt winds from a lee dock in Great Slave Lake. It wasn't
really that difficult.

Gotcha! Before you claimed you did it all the time, now you're
admitting maybe you did it once.

And its well known that the dynamic pressure of the wind that far
north is a lot less. Coriolis force and all that. Ask Jax.



If you say it's not possible... I have to assume you've never actually
attempted it. Until you do... refrain from further input. You know not of
what you speak.

Actually, I was doing it on my smaller boat, but fired up the engine
because the anchorage was crowded and my crew very inexperienced.

But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that
this is the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off
the dock? Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in
and sail it away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push.

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him.



Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff language because it makes him feel good to say
it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he expects people will understand that it's just
theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out.
Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd maybe not take it personally. What you
say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as colorful.

Cheers,
Ellen

Hahaha... now that's a pun I can sail with.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:34:52 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

He's so angry, he can't stop. It's quite pathetic.

That's why Ellen is attracted to him. She has a lot of anchor, too.

CWM

Mooron speaks from experience.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:gM0Pg.20178$E67.182@clgrps13...
Geez Chuck.... you and Ganz should take this off line and get a room.

CM-

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:34:52 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

He's so angry, he can't stop. It's quite pathetic.

That's why Ellen is attracted to him. She has a lot of anchor, too.

CWM

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him.


Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people out for
myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe you
should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him. You
know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being crabby and
crabby gets you crabby.

Cheers,
Ellen

Capt. JG wrote:
Mooron is an angry guy with no social skills or life. He just can't stand it
when confronted by someone who actually sails.

Whatever. Nonetheless, he's right. What he says is a perfectly viable
technique. It WILL work, has worked and isn't difficult to do.

Really, Jon, I can't see why you'd bother disputing it. It may not be
in your particular technique inventory, it might not be in your books,
but all that proves is that both are incomplete.

I remember reading a translation of the account of the first transit of
Magellan Straits. They did this all the time including cutting anchors
free whan there wasn't time to retrieve them.

PDW

He's right that it's possible. He's not right that it's usually necessary.
If it were, it would be in the standard books. However, if you wouldn't mind
showing me a book or lesson plan that it is in, I'd be happy to concede that
someone out there is teaching it to others.

Regarding historical sailing, I'm sure they did lots of things that we no
longer do. I'm pretty certain that there are lots of things that Mooron does
when (if he ever) sails that not be what those of years gone by have done.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Peter" wrote in message
oups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
Mooron is an angry guy with no social skills or life. He just can't stand
it
when confronted by someone who actually sails.

Whatever. Nonetheless, he's right. What he says is a perfectly viable
technique. It WILL work, has worked and isn't difficult to do.

Really, Jon, I can't see why you'd bother disputing it. It may not be
in your particular technique inventory, it might not be in your books,
but all that proves is that both are incomplete.

I remember reading a translation of the account of the first transit of
Magellan Straits. They did this all the time including cutting anchors
free whan there wasn't time to retrieve them.

PDW

So, I must deserve it. Is that you're judgement? Well golly gee miss molly.
Who give a flying crap what you think? You know nothing much about sailing,
and certainly nothing much about me or Mooron. Buzz off.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Poor Mooron. He has so much anger. So far, he can't do anything but call
| people bad names.



Maybe some people deserve to be called bad names. Your not exactly
acting
like a gentleman ya know. I think CM makes a lot more sense than you do. I
can tell
your just a beginner compared to him. You say some dumb things and expect
people
not to question you. Duh! You should listen to him. He might be
exaggerating a little
but he's basically right about how easy it is to haul a boat up by the
anchor line.
It's hard to get it going but once its going it tends to keep going for a
while. You
just add some steady pull and it goes right along. Then, like he says. If
it really
is too hard you can use a winch or windlass.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ummm dummy, maybe he's just what I said, and angry guy who can't take
responsibility for his own actions. And, like I said previously, who cares
what you think.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person.
Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him.



Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff
language because it makes him feel good to say
it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he
expects people will understand that it's just
theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out.
Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd
maybe not take it personally. What you
say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as colorful.

Cheers,
Ellen