First off: Bubbles--this is not intended to be a bashing session aimed at
your boat. It is only a personal observation. Sorry if it contradicts your
personal beliefs.

This past weekend we examined a 38s5 (1992) in Racine, WI. This is the next
larger boat in the Beneteau line designed by the same pair of designers that
did Bubble's boat. My observations:

1) the boat is very tender. The winds at the dock were roughly ten to
twelve knots abeam, and the boat was heeling about 5 to 10 degrees to
leeward under bare pole. Walking around the perimeter of the deck caused
the boat to list. My wife weighs in at roughly 105 and she caused it to
list almost as much as the broker or I did. This is a boat upon which the
old adage, "reef early and reef often," would apply. This boat has a
shallow-draft keel.

2) there is a false deck atop the house, ostensibly to hide the lines that
run aft to the cockpit from the base of the mast. This false deck is a thin
fiberglass lay-up which flexes substantially when walked upon. I suspect
that a heavy person jumping on this false deck could crack, craze, or
perhaps fracture it. Very flimsy, and of no real value in hiding the
aft-running lines.

3) the interior, designed by someone named Philippe Starcke, is not
particularly aesthetic. It is spartan, cold, and uninviting. The bulkheads
and cabin doors are finished in a dark mahogany stain and the white fabric
cushions and brushed aluminum fiddles, table supports, and door trim present
a glaring contrast. The white cushions were badly stained, both from use
and from leaks in numerous locations. The cabin sole was scuffed--not the
builder's fault--but would be difficult to refinish due to the thinness of
the teak veneer (the builder's fault). The aft cabin has a rather lengthy
double quarter berth, but it would take a very tiny person who does not
suffer from claustrophobia to sleep under the cockpit sole. There is
minimal clearance. The vee berth was not quite as long, but pinches to a
very tight point at the bow end. Again, unacceptable for taller folks,
unless they like to entwine their feet while sleeping. The general
appearance of the interior was of cut corners and cheapness, the sole
exception being the white marble countertops, which were badly marred. The
galley appears to be an afterthought. One would be challenged to do much
beyond heating up a can of soup in this diminutive arrangement.

4) the major flaw with the interior of this boat is that I--at 5'
11.5"--could not stand up without my head hitting the overhead ceiling. At
the companionway, my hair brushed the liner, and walking forward required me
to drop my head forward substantially by the mast support. This boat has no
more headroom than an early Catalina 30.

5) nothing topside had the appearance of quality--only cut corners and cheap
hardware. This boat at 14 years of age has not aged well. Certainly
neglectful owners are partly to blame, but so is the builder who obviously
didn't overbuild or reinforce much of the structure, and utilized
second-rate components throughout.

We spent less than 20 minutes on this sorry excuse for a racer/cruiser.
According to Bubbles, the French-built boats of this period were
substantially better constructed and appointed than those originating in the
USA of late. Frankly I'm not seeing it. While the later Beneteaus are not
particularly impressive, they do seem to have a substantial edge over this
example in both quality of construction and hardware.

We walked away with a new mindset regarding Chantiers Beneteau. How well or
poorly a manufacturer's boats age is most telling, and this one told
volumes.

Max

Nice troll, but Bob has already stated that *his* Benne was
built to a higher standard than 'the other' Benes.

Scotty


"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...
First off: Bubbles--this is not intended to be a bashing
session aimed at
your boat. It is only a personal observation. Sorry if
it contradicts your
personal beliefs.

This past weekend we examined a 38s5 (1992) in Racine, WI.
This is the next
larger boat in the Beneteau line designed by the same pair
of designers that
did Bubble's boat. My observations:

1) the boat is very tender. The winds at the dock were
roughly ten to
twelve knots abeam, and the boat was heeling about 5 to 10
degrees to
leeward under bare pole. Walking around the perimeter of
the deck caused
the boat to list. My wife weighs in at roughly 105 and
she caused it to
list almost as much as the broker or I did. This is a
boat upon which the
old adage, "reef early and reef often," would apply. This
boat has a
shallow-draft keel.

2) there is a false deck atop the house, ostensibly to
hide the lines that
run aft to the cockpit from the base of the mast. This
false deck is a thin
fiberglass lay-up which flexes substantially when walked
upon. I suspect
that a heavy person jumping on this false deck could
crack, craze, or
perhaps fracture it. Very flimsy, and of no real value in
hiding the
aft-running lines.

3) the interior, designed by someone named Philippe
Starcke, is not
particularly aesthetic. It is spartan, cold, and
uninviting. The bulkheads
and cabin doors are finished in a dark mahogany stain and
the white fabric
cushions and brushed aluminum fiddles, table supports, and
door trim present
a glaring contrast. The white cushions were badly
stained, both from use
and from leaks in numerous locations. The cabin sole was
scuffed--not the
builder's fault--but would be difficult to refinish due to
the thinness of
the teak veneer (the builder's fault). The aft cabin has
a rather lengthy
double quarter berth, but it would take a very tiny person
who does not
suffer from claustrophobia to sleep under the cockpit
sole. There is
minimal clearance. The vee berth was not quite as long,
but pinches to a
very tight point at the bow end. Again, unacceptable for
taller folks,
unless they like to entwine their feet while sleeping.
The general
appearance of the interior was of cut corners and
cheapness, the sole
exception being the white marble countertops, which were
badly marred. The
galley appears to be an afterthought. One would be
challenged to do much
beyond heating up a can of soup in this diminutive
arrangement.

4) the major flaw with the interior of this boat is that
I--at 5'
11.5"--could not stand up without my head hitting the
overhead ceiling. At
the companionway, my hair brushed the liner, and walking
forward required me
to drop my head forward substantially by the mast support.
This boat has no
more headroom than an early Catalina 30.

5) nothing topside had the appearance of quality--only cut
corners and cheap
hardware. This boat at 14 years of age has not aged well.
Certainly
neglectful owners are partly to blame, but so is the
builder who obviously
didn't overbuild or reinforce much of the structure, and
utilized
second-rate components throughout.

We spent less than 20 minutes on this sorry excuse for a
racer/cruiser.
According to Bubbles, the French-built boats of this
period were
substantially better constructed and appointed than those
originating in the
USA of late. Frankly I'm not seeing it. While the later
Beneteaus are not
particularly impressive, they do seem to have a
substantial edge over this
example in both quality of construction and hardware.

We walked away with a new mindset regarding Chantiers
Beneteau. How well or
poorly a manufacturer's boats age is most telling, and
this one told
volumes.

Max

First off: Bubbles--this is not intended to be a bashing session aimed
at
your boat. It is only a personal observation. Sorry if it contradicts
your
personal beliefs.


It's not the same boat of course. I find it hard to believe you can't
stand up. Could the 38s5 be more of a all out racer than the 35s5? My
line cover is solid as a rock and shows no crazing. For that matter
none of the glasswork shows crazing.
Headroom on my boat is just shy for my 6'3, by a fraction. Everyone
else can stand up. The aft cabin is under the cockpit, just like every
other aft cabin boat in her class that has a big bed. Could the 38s5 be
smaller?
Well, it aint my boat and pics of my vessel and interior shows that
I've been honest across the board.
I do agree about the floorboards. But in so many other ways she trumps
the so called quality of Tartan's, Sabres and C&Cs we looked at.

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...

First off: Bubbles--this is not intended to be a bashing session aimed
at
your boat. It is only a personal observation. Sorry if it contradicts
your
personal beliefs.


It's not the same boat of course. I find it hard to believe you can't
stand up. Could the 38s5 be more of a all out racer than the 35s5? My
line cover is solid as a rock and shows no crazing. For that matter
none of the glasswork shows crazing.

I assumed that it was just the next larger boat in the Starcke lineup, not
really much different than your boat, but longer and somewhat beamier. If
it is a different concept (more racer vs. more cruiser) I'm unaware of it.
To be fair, the line cover didn't show any damage, but it certainly flexed a
lot when anyone walked on it. Even my 105 lb. wife complained about it.

Headroom on my boat is just shy for my 6'3, by a fraction. Everyone
else can stand up.

This boat couldn't have been more than 6'1" at the companionway and no more
than 5' 9" at the mast support. To say the least we were surprised by the
lack of headroom.

The aft cabin is under the cockpit, just like every
other aft cabin boat in her class that has a big bed. Could the 38s5 be
smaller?

The berth was quite long--I'm guessing about 7'--but the portion of the bed
under the cockpit had only about 2 feet of clearance. I wouldn't be able to
roll over without hitting my shoulder against the liner under the cockpit.

Well, it aint my boat and pics of my vessel and interior shows that
I've been honest across the board.

Never doubted that. But it does seem unlikely that the 38' boat would be
smaller in several dimensions than the 35 footer.

I do agree about the floorboards. But in so many other ways she trumps
the so called quality of Tartan's, Sabres and C&Cs we looked at.

I suspect that's a subjective evaluation and probably not the consensus
among most sailors. Glad you're happy with your boat. The 38s5 we saw was
junk when it left the factory. It was nothing I would want, even when new.

Max

To be fair, the line cover didn't show any damage, but it certainly
flexed a
lot when anyone walked on it. Even my 105 lb. wife complained about
it.

Well our's certainly does not flex and I weigh twice what your wife
does.


This boat couldn't have been more than 6'1" at the companionway and no more
than 5' 9" at the mast support. To say the least we were surprised by
the
lack of headroom.


Well, the 35s5 is listed with headroom of 6'3, so then the 38s5 must
have less for some reason.


The berth was quite long--I'm guessing about 7'--but the portion of
the bed
under the cockpit had only about 2 feet of clearance. I wouldn't be
able to
roll over without hitting my shoulder against the liner under the
cockpit.

Again, this sounds like it's tighter than our boat.


Never doubted that. But it does seem unlikely that the 38' boat
would be
smaller in several dimensions than the 35 footer.

But clearly it is, notably in headroom.


I suspect that's a subjective evaluation and probably not the
consensus
among most sailors.

Reputations are generated by people and they're not always correct. We
looked at the Sabre 34 and Tartan 34 and the J34c. They all showed what
I felt were DRASTIC cost cutting measures. Perhaps only the J34c was
true to her design goal with a small, but neatly done interior. The
35s5 had the better fit and finish over the Sabre and Tartan. I
couldn't stand up behind the wheel of the Tartan because the backstay
was in the way! So much for good design. The Sabre's deck layout was
great however.

Glad you're happy with your boat. The 38s5 we saw was
junk when it left the factory. It was nothing I would want, even when
new.

Well, I suspect you'll see a lot of so-so stuff out there. You might
want to look at a First 38 that has been updated. Like the 35s5, they
are extremely well regarded and have quite a following compared to the
newer Beneteau's. And how about some of the C&Cs and Pearsons from the
later years. If you have the bucks, I really dig the newest Tartans.
Keep looking...no rush.


RB

Nice review but you failed to mention the boat's best atribute .....
the swim platform.

35s5 always bringing up the rear

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

To be fair, the line cover didn't show any damage, but it certainly
flexed a
lot when anyone walked on it. Even my 105 lb. wife complained about
it.

Well our's certainly does not flex and I weigh twice what your wife
does.


This boat couldn't have been more than 6'1" at the companionway and no
more
than 5' 9" at the mast support. To say the least we were surprised by
the
lack of headroom.


Well, the 35s5 is listed with headroom of 6'3, so then the 38s5 must
have less for some reason.


The berth was quite long--I'm guessing about 7'--but the portion of
the bed
under the cockpit had only about 2 feet of clearance. I wouldn't be
able to
roll over without hitting my shoulder against the liner under the
cockpit.

Again, this sounds like it's tighter than our boat.


Never doubted that. But it does seem unlikely that the 38' boat
would be
smaller in several dimensions than the 35 footer.

But clearly it is, notably in headroom.


I suspect that's a subjective evaluation and probably not the
consensus
among most sailors.

Reputations are generated by people and they're not always correct. We
looked at the Sabre 34 and Tartan 34 and the J34c. They all showed what
I felt were DRASTIC cost cutting measures. Perhaps only the J34c was
true to her design goal with a small, but neatly done interior. The
35s5 had the better fit and finish over the Sabre and Tartan. I
couldn't stand up behind the wheel of the Tartan because the backstay
was in the way! So much for good design. The Sabre's deck layout was
great however.

Glad you're happy with your boat. The 38s5 we saw was
junk when it left the factory. It was nothing I would want, even when
new.

Well, I suspect you'll see a lot of so-so stuff out there. You might
want to look at a First 38 that has been updated. Like the 35s5, they
are extremely well regarded and have quite a following compared to the
newer Beneteau's. And how about some of the C&Cs and Pearsons from the
later years. If you have the bucks, I really dig the newest Tartans.
Keep looking...no rush.

Next in line for inspection is a Passport 40, a true blue-water cruiser.
Not terribly fast, but has a fair turn of speed for a voyager. We'll see .
.. .

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
To be fair, the line cover didn't show any damage, but it certainly
flexed a
lot when anyone walked on it. Even my 105 lb. wife complained about
it.

Well our's certainly does not flex and I weigh twice what your wife
does.


This boat couldn't have been more than 6'1" at the companionway and no
more
than 5' 9" at the mast support. To say the least we were surprised by
the
lack of headroom.


Well, the 35s5 is listed with headroom of 6'3, so then the 38s5 must
have less for some reason.


The berth was quite long--I'm guessing about 7'--but the portion of
the bed
under the cockpit had only about 2 feet of clearance. I wouldn't be
able to
roll over without hitting my shoulder against the liner under the
cockpit.

Again, this sounds like it's tighter than our boat.


Never doubted that. But it does seem unlikely that the 38' boat
would be
smaller in several dimensions than the 35 footer.

But clearly it is, notably in headroom.


I suspect that's a subjective evaluation and probably not the
consensus
among most sailors.

Reputations are generated by people and they're not always correct. We
looked at the Sabre 34 and Tartan 34 and the J34c. They all showed what
I felt were DRASTIC cost cutting measures. Perhaps only the J34c was
true to her design goal with a small, but neatly done interior. The
35s5 had the better fit and finish over the Sabre and Tartan. I
couldn't stand up behind the wheel of the Tartan because the backstay
was in the way! So much for good design. The Sabre's deck layout was
great however.

Glad you're happy with your boat. The 38s5 we saw was
junk when it left the factory. It was nothing I would want, even when
new.

Well, I suspect you'll see a lot of so-so stuff out there. You might
want to look at a First 38 that has been updated. Like the 35s5, they
are extremely well regarded and have quite a following compared to the
newer Beneteau's. And how about some of the C&Cs and Pearsons from the
later years. If you have the bucks, I really dig the newest Tartans.
Keep looking...no rush.

Next in line for inspection is a Passport 40, a true blue-water cruiser.
Not terribly fast, but has a fair turn of speed for a voyager. We'll see .
. .

Max


Out of abject curiosity...why are you looking for a new boat?

Next in line for inspection is a Passport 40, a true blue-water
cruiser.
Not terribly fast, but has a fair turn of speed for a voyager.



Beautiful boat and not slow by any means. It's a much different
animal...really on another level above most Beneteau's. They tend to be
horribly overpriced and not updated much (at least the 2 i've seen).
What about the Robin Hood, built on the Cape Dory 36 lines...is that an
option, or too small?


RB
35s5
NY

"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
To be fair, the line cover didn't show any damage, but it certainly
flexed a
lot when anyone walked on it. Even my 105 lb. wife complained about
it.

Well our's certainly does not flex and I weigh twice what your wife
does.


This boat couldn't have been more than 6'1" at the companionway and
no more
than 5' 9" at the mast support. To say the least we were surprised by
the
lack of headroom.


Well, the 35s5 is listed with headroom of 6'3, so then the 38s5 must
have less for some reason.


The berth was quite long--I'm guessing about 7'--but the portion of
the bed
under the cockpit had only about 2 feet of clearance. I wouldn't be
able to
roll over without hitting my shoulder against the liner under the
cockpit.

Again, this sounds like it's tighter than our boat.


Never doubted that. But it does seem unlikely that the 38' boat
would be
smaller in several dimensions than the 35 footer.

But clearly it is, notably in headroom.


I suspect that's a subjective evaluation and probably not the
consensus
among most sailors.

Reputations are generated by people and they're not always correct. We
looked at the Sabre 34 and Tartan 34 and the J34c. They all showed what
I felt were DRASTIC cost cutting measures. Perhaps only the J34c was
true to her design goal with a small, but neatly done interior. The
35s5 had the better fit and finish over the Sabre and Tartan. I
couldn't stand up behind the wheel of the Tartan because the backstay
was in the way! So much for good design. The Sabre's deck layout was
great however.

Glad you're happy with your boat. The 38s5 we saw was
junk when it left the factory. It was nothing I would want, even when
new.

Well, I suspect you'll see a lot of so-so stuff out there. You might
want to look at a First 38 that has been updated. Like the 35s5, they
are extremely well regarded and have quite a following compared to the
newer Beneteau's. And how about some of the C&Cs and Pearsons from the
later years. If you have the bucks, I really dig the newest Tartans.
Keep looking...no rush.

Next in line for inspection is a Passport 40, a true blue-water cruiser.
Not terribly fast, but has a fair turn of speed for a voyager. We'll see
. . .

Max
Out of abject curiosity...why are you looking for a new boat?

1) larger, 2) more capacity, storage, fuel capacity, range, speed, 3)
offshore capable, 4) money burning a hole in the pocket.

Max