On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:00:02 +0100, "Capt. Scumbalino"
wrote:

Ellen MacArthur wrote:

How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you
talked about one of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the
result fit the definition of overtake?

A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel
from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, ...

You have described the course that each vessel is on, the subtraction of one
from the other being 28 degrees - but this doesn't pertain to the direction
from the beam of the vessel being overtaken. You didn't define their
positions, only their courses, and stated that their courses look like they
will converge (which, for colreg purposes, is close enough to be considered
a potential collision situation).

"The one catching up is going on a course of 180 degrees" If they are
to converge "the direction from the beam of the vessel being
overtaken" must be less than 28 degrees.

So, we have a boat on 208deg, and another (catching up on the first) on
180deg, with a convergence point ahead if they maintain these courses.
Whether the catching boat is 22.5deg abaft of the other boat's beam is
unknown - they could be on a collision course, or not, depending on their
positions. See...

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/826...48327613VRqQxV

In the left-hand diagram, the green boat is overtaking the red one, but it
isn't in the right-hand diagram because it's ahead of the green one's
imaginary line representing 22.5deg abaft her beam. Until you define their
positions, it cannot be said for sure that the situation is an overtaking
one.

In lieu of that, I would say that the windward boat has to keep clear.

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:12:02 +0100, Goofball_star_dot_etal
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:00:02 +0100, "Capt. Scumbalino"
wrote:

Ellen MacArthur wrote:

How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you
talked about one of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the
result fit the definition of overtake?

A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel
from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, ...

You have described the course that each vessel is on, the subtraction of one
from the other being 28 degrees - but this doesn't pertain to the direction
from the beam of the vessel being overtaken. You didn't define their
positions, only their courses, and stated that their courses look like they
will converge (which, for colreg purposes, is close enough to be considered
a potential collision situation).

"The one catching up is going on a course of 180 degrees" If they are
to converge "the direction from the beam of the vessel being
overtaken" must be less than 28 degrees.

Oops! 90+ 14...


So, we have a boat on 208deg, and another (catching up on the first) on
180deg, with a convergence point ahead if they maintain these courses.
Whether the catching boat is 22.5deg abaft of the other boat's beam is
unknown - they could be on a collision course, or not, depending on their
positions. See...

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/826...48327613VRqQxV

In the left-hand diagram, the green boat is overtaking the red one, but it
isn't in the right-hand diagram because it's ahead of the green one's
imaginary line representing 22.5deg abaft her beam. Until you define their
positions, it cannot be said for sure that the situation is an overtaking
one.

In lieu of that, I would say that the windward boat has to keep clear.

Goofball_star_dot_etal wrote:

"The one catching up is going on a course of 180 degrees" If they are
to converge "the direction from the beam of the vessel being
overtaken" must be less than 28 degrees.

Whether or not they converge is a function of their current positions, their
courses and their speeds. Have a look at my diagram linked to elsewhere. If
the red boat is doing 1kt, and the green one 100kts, then the green one will
be past the red one - will pass over the red boat's projected course - long
before the red boat gets to the same point.

The direction from the beam has nothing to do with convergence, but is a
means of defining whether the situation is an overtaking one.


--
Capt Scumbalino

"Capt. Scumbalino" wrote

| In lieu of that, I would say that the windward boat has to keep clear.

Right, the windward boat must stay clear. Both are on the starboard
tack and it's not overtaking by definition. It's a crossing situation.

Cheers,
Ellen

Nope. You're wrong. It's not a crossing situation.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. Scumbalino" wrote

| In lieu of that, I would say that the windward boat has to keep clear.

Right, the windward boat must stay clear. Both are on the starboard
tack and it's not overtaking by definition. It's a crossing situation.

Cheers,
Ellen

Hey, Scumbalino! You were quickly in my killfile when you first appeared
here but I am pleased to see you are right on topic now and you are right.

"Capt. Scumbalino" wrote in message
...
Ellen MacArthur wrote:

How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you
talked about one of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the
result fit the definition of overtake?

A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another
vessel
from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, ...

You have described the course that each vessel is on, the subtraction of
one
from the other being 28 degrees - but this doesn't pertain to the
direction
from the beam of the vessel being overtaken. You didn't define their
positions, only their courses, and stated that their courses look like
they
will converge (which, for colreg purposes, is close enough to be
considered
a potential collision situation).

So, we have a boat on 208deg, and another (catching up on the first) on
180deg, with a convergence point ahead if they maintain these courses.
Whether the catching boat is 22.5deg abaft of the other boat's beam is
unknown - they could be on a collision course, or not, depending on their
positions. See...

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/826...48327613VRqQxV

In the left-hand diagram, the green boat is overtaking the red one, but it
isn't in the right-hand diagram because it's ahead of the green one's
imaginary line representing 22.5deg abaft her beam. Until you define their
positions, it cannot be said for sure that the situation is an overtaking
one.

In lieu of that, I would say that the windward boat has to keep clear.


--
Capt Scumbalino

Edgar wrote:

Hey, Scumbalino! You were quickly in my killfile when you first
appeared here but I am pleased to see you are right on topic now and
you are right.

Why on earth you decided to killfile me when I first appeared is a mystery,
since the thrust of my initial posts was to tell a few flonkers just how
dumb they really were, and to make my views on Neal's involvement with them,
and that ****ed-up hoor he made the mistake of getting in tow with, quite
plain. In other words, I did nothing other than uphold the way in which this
group has operated for a long time before the aforementioned saddos tried to
have a go at screwing it up.


--
Capt Scumbalino

The angles have nothing to do with it if it's an overtaking situation. Are
you going to be out there with a protractor measuring? If the first boat is
ahead of the other boat (doesn't have to be directly inline), that boat has
stand-on status as far as I'm concerned. The other boat is burdoned and must
not cause a collision. The boat being overtaken must hold course. The other
boat must give-way.

Joe is right. But it's too easy for a point. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote

| That's not worth an ASA point.


How come? You got it wrong too when in your other post you talked
about one
of the boats being overtaken.

I see you people need a hint: Subtract the angles. Does the result
fit the
definition of overtake?

Cheers,
Ellen

Because the course difference is less then 67.5 degrees, the qualifies
as an overtaking situation. According to Rule 14,
"Notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 through 18, any
vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel
being overtaken."

In other words, it doesn't matter that one or both are sailboats, or
small, the overtaking boat must stay clear.



Ellen MacArthur wrote:
A little sailboat with no motor is on the starboard tack catching up with another
little sailboat with no motor on the starboard tack. The one catching up is going
on a course of 180 degrees. The one getting caught is going 208 degrees.

Which one has to change course if it looks like they're going to hit each other?

Cheers,
Ellen

Jeff wrote:
Because the course difference is less then 67.5 degrees, the qualifies
as an overtaking situation. According to Rule 14,
"Notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 through 18, any
vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel
being overtaken."

My understanding is that it isn't about differences in course, per-se, but
must also include the bearing from the vessel that is being caught, to the
vessel that is catching.


--
Capt Scumbalino