"DSK" wrote in message .. .
| | Is electricity the only thing in the universe which will
| | produce heat?
|
|
| Paladin wrote:
|
| No but it's the only thing on earth I know of that has the ability to cause a propeller attached
| to a yacht to boil water.
|
| Really? Ever heard of "fire"? It's the latest technology,
| great for producing heat.

But you can burn a boat to the waterline all day long and it will
never get the water around the propeller to boil. There's just
too much water to heat.

| And now, just to show how truly impossible it is to actually
| teach you something, I will continue to demonstrate how
| wrong you are about "boiling"!

Oh, I just can't wait for yet another display of speculation...

| | | When people who live in the mountains make their tea and/or
| | | coffee, do they boil their water or does the lower
| | | atmospheric pressure mean that they are "vaporizing" it?
| |
| |
| | Paladin wrote:
| | They are adding heat only so they are boiling it.
| |
| | What about the energy expended in carrying it up the
| | mountainside?
|
|
| What if it came down the mountain stream? Your question
| and mine are equally nonsensical as neither are part of
| the equation.
|
| What equation? So far you have insisted that whole issue can
| be explained in plain English. Efforts to introduce math &
| science have been rejected by you in favor of the dictionary
| (and it's not even THE Scrabble Dictionary). Maybe you have
| a problem with math? Anyway, I'm putting it in plain simple
| English.

The equation figurative speaking. You seem to have a real
problem with the English language. You've no imagination,
little comprehension and even less vocabulary. I suppose
I need to use simple 8th grade words so I can communicate
with you.

| Energy has been added to the water. If it "came down the
| mountain stream" then the Sun carried it up there. Either
| way, the kettle on a mountain top is at a higher energy
| state than water at atmospheric pressure at sea level.

Well, whoop-de-doo! You still need to heat the water up
in order to get it to boil.

| The lower pressure means that less *additional* energy has
| to be added to make it boil. But that energy has been added,
| or the water would never boil

Sorry, but energy is to vague a term. What if you put the
water into a container and onto a rail job and took it to
the drag strip and accelerated it to 200mph? It would have
more energy (kinetic) but it would be no closer to boiling.
Stick with "heat" as that's the word used in the definition
of boil. You're confusing yourself with your substituting
energy for heat. Heat is a form of energy but there are
lots of different kinds of energy.

| Wait a minute, let me back up a step for you. It takes a
| fixed amount of energy to raise a given amount of water a
| given temp, did you know that? Look up the term "specific
| heat" in your dictionary.

And what's this sidetrack got to do with boiling water or
more specifically the definition of boiling? If one could
put a cup of water in a rocketship and accelerate it to
99.9% of the speed of light one would be adding almost
infinite energy (E+mc2) but the water would be no closer
to boiling until one added heat. (BTUs). So please get
out of here with all this energy crap. It'll only confuse
you more...

| |
| | .... The lower
| | atmospheric pressure only means they are able to boil water
| | using fewer BTUs because the boiling point temp is lowered.
| |
| |
| | Hmm... and heat is energy... so therefore, if a propeller
| | adds energy to the water, and by doing so lowers the
| | pressure enough that the boiling point temp is lowered....

As I stated above heat is a form of energy but energy isn't
necessarily heat. You seem to equate the two.

If the definition of boil was to heat to the vaporization
point by adding energy as I stated above the cup of water
going 99.9% of the speed of light has almost infinite energy
but is no closer to boiling than it was at rest.

| Paladin wrote:
|
| Boiling temp. There's that boil word again. You're still guilty
| of using a word that means to add heat.
|
| Heat is energy. Did you know that?

Heat is a form or category of energy, yes. Since you seem to
like math equations, here's what you're saying: "Heat = energy."
Like any good math equation this can also be expressed as,
Energy = heat." WRONG! This proves the original equation is
incorrect as well. If you're gonna equate terms they'd damned
well be equal.

| .... You can combine it
| with another word but that doesn't change the meaning of
| the word boil.
|
|
| I'm not changing the meaning of the word, I am pointing out
| how it is applicable in cases where you don't think it is.

And I've pointed out by my 99.9% of C (speed of light) how
wrong you are...

| If water can be boiled at a lower temp on a mountain top,
| then it can be boiled at a lower temp by a propeller,

No, it cannot because the prop doesn't boil the water. The
low pressure zone created by the prop vaporizes water.
What's happening around a prop does not meet the definition
of boil.


| unless
| your dictionary either defines a minimum possible temp or
| specifically excludes propellers. Does it?

Yes, it does exclude propellers as there is no mention of
propellers and it's been made abundantly clear that props
cannot add enough heat to the water to boil it.

| What about in a
| balloon far above the mountain top, that would be at a lower
| pressure and thus lower temp even yet.... correct?

The boiling point of the water would be lower, yes! But,
you still need to add heat to get it to boil...

| Now look at the another situation: ever hear of a cracking
| column? It is how gasoline and diesel fuel are made. The
| official name is "fractional distilling." Look it up in your
| dictionary. A cracking column has heated fluid (such as
| crude oil) pumped into it and then released into a lower
| pressure vessel. Does it boil? You better believe it does,
| if it didn't you'd be sitting in the dark instead of reading
| this!

That's because heat has been added so therefore it boils.
If no heat had been added before the pressure was lowered
it would not boil.

| ... As I argued with Gilligan, and he finally concurred
|
|
| Actually, I don't think he concurred at all. I think he
| preferred to retire from the discussion instead of showing
| your folly.

Wrong! Gilligan has a keen intellect. He was able to see my
point and could not see any way to refute it. After all this
entire discussion is about a dictionary definition. You cannot
argue with words once you accept their definition.

You cannot call vaporization of water boiling of water and
that's what your who argument is attempting to do. Boiling,
by definition, means to vaporize by adding heat and not
to vaporize by lowering pressure...

| a propeller does not add enough heat to the water to boil it. It
| only lowers pressure in some cases enough to vaporize water and
| cause cavitation, so to say a propeller boils water is just plain wrong
| according to the definition of the verb "to boil".
|
|
| Wrong
|
| Water (or any fluid) can be boiled at a wide range of temps
| & pressures. We agreed on this.

Water at sea level upon which a yacht propeller operates cannot
be boiled by a propeller. Never has never will...

| At low pressure, very little heat need be added. You agreed
| that it takes less heat to boil water at the top of a
| mountain because of the lower pressure. Now you are
| insisting that there is some definite ratio of heat added to
| pressure reduced or somehow it isn't "boiling."

We're still talking about lowering pressure and not adding heat,
or at least not enough heat to bring the water to it's boiling point
which is dependent upon the atmospheric pressure at the
propeller. Sure, there is a modicum of heat added because the
water molecules are set in higher motion than before they were
agitated by the prop but this does not make enough heat to raise
the water to its boiling point under more than an atmosphere of
pressure (the depth of the water adds a % of an atmosphere).
As long as we're talking about vaporization via low pressure
we're, by definition, not talking about boiling.

| Is that what your dictionary says? That it's only boiling if
| X amount, or greater, of heat is added?

The dictionary defines boil this way: "to heat or become heated to a temperature (boiling point) at which vapor is formed and rises
in bubbles water ~s and changes to steam..."

|
| | BTW I can think of a simple test to prove you are or are not
| | the Crapton®. Explain, in your own words, the term 'hull speed.'
|
| For a displacement boat, a heavy deep-keel boat, the maximum speed a given hull can attain from wind power is called "hull
speed" and is largely dependent on the waterline length of the boat. Hull speed is expressed as 1.34 X the square root of LWL, or
length of waterline. If a cruising sailboat has a waterline length of 36 feet, she should be able to sail 1.34 x 6, or approximately
eight knots.
| http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...leid=colgat006
|
| I think you're an imposter. The real Crapton® would never
| have cribbed an important definition like that.

Cribbed? I gave the link. How do you know I'm not Steve Colgate?

Paladin
|


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Nomen Nescio" wrote in message ...
| Undeniably so. If I were you I'd feel cheated.
|


If you were me you'd be four times more intelligent, five times more
handsome, and ten times richer. (And, you'd have a real news server...)

Paladin

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Paladin, or Gilly?

I see and awful lot of posting about "Boiling water", "Vapors &
vaporization" and I'm yet to see a mention of "Steam".

What is Steam? Is it a Vapor? Is it a Gas? Is it uncondenced liquid?

What is "Humidity?" Is it a Vapor or a Gas?

The Symbol for Water is H2O; Two parts Hydrogen, one part Oxygen, What
is the Symbol for Water Vapor? What is the Symbol for "Relative
Humidity?"

Relating it to Cavitation and "Useless Propeller" , what is the chemical
composition of those bubbles formed in Cavitation?

A bum ASA member is asking the greater MINDS of this discussion?




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
| Paladin, or Gilly?
|
| I see and awful lot of posting about "Boiling water", "Vapors &
| vaporization" and I'm yet to see a mention of "Steam".
|
| What is Steam? Is it a Vapor? Is it a Gas? Is it uncondenced liquid?

Steam is the vapor into which water is turned when heated to boiling.

| What is "Humidity?" Is it a Vapor or a Gas?

Humidity is the amount of atmosphic moisture usually expressed
as a percentage.

| The Symbol for Water is H2O; Two parts Hydrogen, one part Oxygen,
|What is the Symbol for Water Vapor?

H2O

|What is the Symbol for "Relative Humidity?"

Has an abreviation --- R.H. but, doesn't have a symbol as relative humidity is the
actual vapor density divided by the saturation vapor density times 100%

| Relating it to Cavitation and "Useless Propeller" , what is the chemical
| composition of those bubbles formed in Cavitation?

That's a difficult question as the bubbles contain water vapor, NaCl,
CaCl, some metal particals or ions from the propeller, some diatoms
and copapods, algae, etc. etc.

| A bum ASA member is asking the greater MINDS of this discussion?

Greater minds? That would certainly include me.

Paladin

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

DSK wrote:
| Is electricity the only thing in the universe which will
| produce heat?


Paladin wrote:

No but it's the only thing on earth I know of that has the ability to cause a propeller attached
to a yacht to boil water.




Really? Ever heard of "fire"? It's the latest technology,
great for producing heat.



And now, just to show how truly impossible it is to actually
teach you something, I will continue to demonstrate how
wrong you are about "boiling"!

Doug - remember the adage about pigs & singing.

PDW

"Non scrivetemi" wrote in message
tonsmith.info...


And another aside, this is all pretty much academic quibbling anyway,
as the original disagreement was about cavitation.

What is the temperature inside of those cavitation bubbles when they
collapse?


Which doesn't have
anything to do with water vapor at face value. It can, but it can also
be other gaseous bubbling that produces cavitation as it does in low
pressure home plumbing when water from a smaller pipe is fed into a
larger pipe.

Nozzles!

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:42:47 -0400, "Paladin" noneofyourbusiness.www
wrote:


"DSK" wrote in message
...
| | Is electricity the only thing in the universe which will
| | produce heat?
|
|
| Paladin wrote:
|
| No but it's the only thing on earth I know of that has the ability to
cause a propeller attached
| to a yacht to boil water.
|
| Really? Ever heard of "fire"? It's the latest technology,
| great for producing heat.

But you can burn a boat to the waterline all day long and it will
never get the water around the propeller to boil. There's just
too much water to heat.


Ever do any underwater welding with a torch?

I certainly hope you were using a Whitworth torch.

Max

Paladin wrote:
As long as we're talking about vaporization via low pressure
we're, by definition, not talking about boiling.


Nobody except you is istalking about vaporization via low
pressure. Everybody else seems to grasp the concept of
specific heat, heat being a form of energy, and
pressure/phase relationships. In other words, everybody but
you has a grasp of high school physics, which ia why I'm
still trying to explain it to you while everybody else has
moved on.


| Is that what your dictionary says? That it's only boiling if
| X amount, or greater, of heat is added?

Paladin wrote:
The dictionary defines boil this way: "to heat or become heated to a temperature (boiling point) at which vapor is formed and rises
in bubbles water ~s and changes to steam..."


But the water boils with less heat added when on a mountain
top, correct? That means that the *amount* of heat to be
added is not the determining factor in whether it is
boiling. It can be greater or lesser.

Unless your dictionary defines a minimum amount of heat to
be added, which it doesn't, then you cannot exclude
vaporizing fluid under circumstances of reduced pressure
from the term "boiling."

Just like your attempt to claim that your dictionary
definition excludes propellors as devices for boiling, on
which subject it is silent.... you just make stuff up.


| I think you're an imposter. The real Crapton® would never
| have cribbed an important definition like that.


Paladin wrote:
Cribbed? I gave the link. How do you know I'm not Steve Colgate?


I've met Steve Colgate.

DSK

Peter wrote:
Doug - remember the adage about pigs & singing.


At this point, the pig is not only singing but also
tap-dancing. I happen to think it's funny, but then I have
low tastes.

DSK

Our distresses being at an end, I now determined to rest the men in camp and
give the scientific department of the Expedition a chance. First I made a
barometric observation, to get our altitude, but I could not perceive that
there was any result.
I knew, by my scientific reading, that either thermometers or barometers
ought to be boiled, to make them accurate; I did not know which it was, so I
boiled both. There was still no result, so I examined these instruments and
discovered that they possessed radical blemishes: the barometer had no hand
but the brass pointer, and the ball of the thermometer was stuffed with tin
foil. I might have boiled those things to rags and never found out anything.

I hunted up another barometer: it was new and perfect. I boiled it half an
hour in a pot of bean soup which the cooks were making. The result was
unexpected: the instrument was not affected at all, but there was such a
strong barometer taste to the soup that the head cook, who was a most
conscientious person, changed its name in the bill of fare. The dish was so
greatly liked by all, that I ordered the cook to have barometer soup every
day. It was believed that the barometer might eventually be injured, but I
did not care for that.

I had demonstrated to my satisfaction that it could not tell how high a
mountain was: therefore I had no real use for it. Changes of the weather I
could take care of without it. I did not wish to know when the weather was
going to he good: what I wanted to know was when it was going to be bad, and
this I could find out from Harris's corns. Harris had had his corns tested
and regulated at the government observatory in Heidelberg, and one could
depend upon them with confidence.

So I transferred the new barometer to the cooking department to be used for
the official mess. It was found that even a pretty fair article of 'soup
could be made with the defective barometer: so I allowed that one to be
transferred to the subordinate messes.

I next boiled the thermometer, and got a most excellent result: the mercury
went up to about 200° F. In the opinion of the other scientists of the
Expedition, this seemed to indicate that we had attained the extraordinary
altitude of' 200,000 feet above sea level. Science places the line of
eternal snow at about 10,000 feet above sea level. There was no snow where
we were. Consequently it was proven that the eternal snow line ceases
somewhere above the 10,000 feet level and does not begin any more. This was
an interesting fact, and one which had not been observed by any observer
before

The success of my last experiment induced me to try an experiment with my
photographic apparatus. I got it out, and boiled one of my cameras, but the
thing was a failu it made the wood swell up and burst, and I could not
see that the lenses were any better than they were before..

We continued on up the mountain. The difficulties of the next morning were
severe. but our courage was high, for our goal was near. At noon we
conquered the last impediment - we stood at last upon the summit - and
without the loss of a single man, except the mule that ate the glycerine.
Our great achievement was achieved - the possibility of the impossible was
demonstrated.