DSK wrote:
Well, that's an issue for another discussion. Steel boats
have their disadvantages from my point of view, too


Scotty wrote:
Besides the rust, and being heavy and slow, what are the
disadvantages of a steel boat.


Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.

You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world. I could repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months on fragile
glass, and you have that itchy dust, expensive resins, soft cores,
matching gel-coats and it goes on and on for the flammable fiberglass.

It can never be as strong as a well-engineered and well
built fiberglass hull & deck, much less carbon fiber.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......bwahahaha hahahahahahahahaha

The
biggest disadvantage is the rust, howewver, which once it
starts will never stop and eats away at every part of the
boat, especially the inaccessible crevices which are
structurally critical.

Sounds like you know nothing about maintaining a steel boat.

Then there's the issue of galvanic corrosion, not as bad as
aluminum but a dropped wire can eat right thru it, as can a
penny in the bilge. The rust is also a constant problem.

Oh boy, a penny in the bilge fool, I guess you glass guys leave stray
wires adrift in contact with your hulls allot. Guess you yse romax and
do not run your wires in approved casings. Not smart, better check your
zincs.

Because the galavanic corrosion, if lead ballast is used it
must be very carefully insulated from the structural parts
of the boat (usually done with fiberglass, which was
originally invented as electrical insulation).

Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.

Alos because
steel is so heavy, it is difficult to design a steel boat
that can carry a high proportion of ballast. Don't forget
about rust.

Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson? Not enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..You pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?



Almost every steel boat will have slight ripples in the
metal from welding,

Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.
I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that FG experts.

and it will look crummy or else be
filled with Bondo.

My DeVires has zero bondo, and I challenge anyone to find a weld on the
outside of my hull or cabin

This isn't really a bad problem as long
as the putty doesn't fall off from rust under it.

As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.

How old is Ol Ironsides?

The first ship I
was on actually had fiberglass patches on the hull where the
rust had eaten thru. What does that tell you?

1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were inept.
2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were inept.
3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused and neglected
all its life due to neglect.

I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the ones not able
to do any rough work. All the LCM's, LCVP's, were made of steel, cept
some of the old Higgins were marine plywood. Fiberglass was for the
delicate gig's, barges, and liberty boats.

Something like
"Build it out of fiberglass in the first place!"

More like.
"Dereliction of duty is a specifical offence in military law. It
includes various elements centred around the avoidance of any duty
which may be properly expected."

"In the US Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) it is contained
within the regulations governing the failure to obey an order or
regulation. It means that one willfully, through negligence or culpable
inefficiency fails to perform one's expected duties. Ineptitude is a
defence against the charge. The maximum penalty in the US is a
bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of pay and six months confinement.
Acts which are derelict may be charged under more specific offences
such as missing movement, noncompliance with procedural rules,
misbehaviour, malingering, self-injury with intent to avoid service, or
straggling."


But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.


yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....

Joe



DSK

Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.


Joe wrote:
You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.




... I could repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months on fragile
glass

???

you need to find less lazy workmen.

A 3 ft hole in fiberglass should take about an hour to
repair, then a day to cure. And it wouldn't start rusting
before you'd finished the patch.







Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.


Cheap and no galvanic corrosion, but less effective as
ballast. Oh well, everything is a trade off.





Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson?

Yes

... Not enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..

They were also cargo ships. And yes, they would have sailed
much better (not to mention being safer) if they had a
higher ballast ratio.


.... You pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?


Nope, basic physics.




Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.

Agreed.

I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that FG experts.


Maybe that's true in Texas. Fiberglass is hardly some new
cutting edge voodoo technology, it's only been around about
60 years now. Heck there are 20 year old carbon fiber &
Kevlar boats.

If steel were easier to work then more production boats
would be made of it, since labor cost is the highest factor
in commercial boatbuilding.



As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.


How old is Ol Ironsides?


News flash: the USS Constitution is made of wood. "Old
Ironsides" is just a nickname.


1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were inept.

That may have been true

2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were inept.

Also may have been true

3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused and neglected
all its life due to neglect.


That was certainly not true, it was the best in it's class
as determined by INSURV

However it was about 30 years old at that time and had seen
many many many sea miles & hard service.


I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the ones not able
to do any rough work.

And how many of them were 30 years old?
Actually some of them may have been approaching that, the
Navy started buying fiberglass boats in the mid 1950s.



But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.



yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....


Look it up. It's not even top secret any more. News flash:
look for the word "composite" when checking the specs. After
all, do they make bulletproof vests out of steel?

Joe since you already have a steel boat, I'm not going to
try and tell you it's lousy stuff. Besides, it isn't lousy,
it's just not as good (ie strong or durable). Steel is
stronger than wood, but there are more than two choices
these days.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:28:39 -0400, DSK wrote:

Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.


Joe wrote:
You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.

Having made my living for a while as a welder (on offshore deck
sections) and having done a lot of glass work and chased a lot of core
rot, I'd say it depends on the type of repair. If I needed to repair
a holed hull, steel gets the vote for easier and more reliable. I
would not trust any yard in my area to do a holed (particularly below
the water line) hull in glass. If you don't feather back the edges
properly and back lap the repair, there will be a weak spot do to the
loss of the monolithic nature of the woven roving, mat and cloth. Not
sure I would ever trust it. Not an issue with steel.

That said, I'd still rather have a glass boat. Did someone mention
rust as an issue?

Frank




... I could repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months on fragile
glass

???

you need to find less lazy workmen.

A 3 ft hole in fiberglass should take about an hour to
repair, then a day to cure. And it wouldn't start rusting
before you'd finished the patch.







Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.


Cheap and no galvanic corrosion, but less effective as
ballast. Oh well, everything is a trade off.





Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson?

Yes

... Not enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..

They were also cargo ships. And yes, they would have sailed
much better (not to mention being safer) if they had a
higher ballast ratio.


.... You pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?


Nope, basic physics.




Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.

Agreed.

I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that FG experts.


Maybe that's true in Texas. Fiberglass is hardly some new
cutting edge voodoo technology, it's only been around about
60 years now. Heck there are 20 year old carbon fiber &
Kevlar boats.

If steel were easier to work then more production boats
would be made of it, since labor cost is the highest factor
in commercial boatbuilding.



As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.


How old is Ol Ironsides?


News flash: the USS Constitution is made of wood. "Old
Ironsides" is just a nickname.


1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were inept.

That may have been true

2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were inept.

Also may have been true

3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused and neglected
all its life due to neglect.


That was certainly not true, it was the best in it's class
as determined by INSURV

However it was about 30 years old at that time and had seen
many many many sea miles & hard service.


I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the ones not able
to do any rough work.

And how many of them were 30 years old?
Actually some of them may have been approaching that, the
Navy started buying fiberglass boats in the mid 1950s.



But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.



yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....


Look it up. It's not even top secret any more. News flash:
look for the word "composite" when checking the specs. After
all, do they make bulletproof vests out of steel?

Joe since you already have a steel boat, I'm not going to
try and tell you it's lousy stuff. Besides, it isn't lousy,
it's just not as good (ie strong or durable). Steel is
stronger than wood, but there are more than two choices
these days.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.


Frank Boettcher wrote:
Having made my living for a while as a welder (on offshore deck
sections) and having done a lot of glass work and chased a lot of core
rot, I'd say it depends on the type of repair. If I needed to repair
a holed hull, steel gets the vote for easier and more reliable.

Since it takes years of specialized study & practice to
become a welder, why would you say it's easier?

Mor reliable... depends on your perspective I guess. I've
done a lot of QA work on pressure vessel welding. Most of
the best welders I've worked with are bikers... don't know
why that is.


... I
would not trust any yard in my area to do a holed (particularly below
the water line) hull in glass.

I wouldn't either. I'd do it myself.


.... If you don't feather back the edges
properly and back lap the repair, there will be a weak spot do to the
loss of the monolithic nature of the woven roving, mat and cloth. Not
sure I would ever trust it. Not an issue with steel.


A weld can never be as strong as the original metal. A
properly done fiberglass repair can be stronger than the
original... in fact, it can be a problem if you make the
patch too stiff because that throws more stress to the other
areas of the hull.

Looks to me like you guys who are already welders have a lot
of faith in metal... that's good. OTOH it would be
interesting to see your opinion after studying a text on
composite engineering. I have done minor fiberglass work for
many years, but recently decided to learn more about it &
the best books seem to be focussed on aviation.


That said, I'd still rather have a glass boat. Did someone mention
rust as an issue?


Why no. Is rust a problem for steel boats?? Who'd a thunk
it?

DSK

DSK wrote:



A weld can never be as strong as the original metal.

Wrong, a weld can.... be and is often... stronger than the original
metal


A
properly done fiberglass repair can be stronger than the
original... in fact, it can be a problem if you make the
patch too stiff because that throws more stress to the other
areas of the hull.

Looks to me like you guys who are already welders have a lot
of faith in metal... that's good. OTOH it would be
interesting to see your opinion after studying a text on
composite engineering. I have done minor fiberglass work for
many years, but recently decided to learn more about it &
the best books seem to be focussed on aviation.


Stainless steel is a result of composite engineering.

Joe

DSK

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:20:31 -0400, DSK wrote:

You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.


Frank Boettcher wrote:
Having made my living for a while as a welder (on offshore deck
sections) and having done a lot of glass work and chased a lot of core
rot, I'd say it depends on the type of repair. If I needed to repair
a holed hull, steel gets the vote for easier and more reliable.

Since it takes years of specialized study & practice to
become a welder, why would you say it's easier?

Not if you have a reasonable aptitude for the craft. Most production
welders in the yard I worked at were at the 3G level in less than four
months, that is they could pass a vertical up test 1" plate cut and
stripped, bent 180 degrees around a mandrel without separation of the
weld from the base metal. However, there was a shortage and we were
pushed hard to test quickly. I tested to 5G (around a fixed
horizontal pipe) and had certifications in SMAW, GMAW, FCAW, SAW,
and GTAW processes in less than a year (note, not all those processes
suitable to 5G position).

Mor reliable... depends on your perspective I guess. I've
done a lot of QA work on pressure vessel welding. Most of
the best welders I've worked with are bikers... don't know
why that is.

And my ASME code stamp is on quite a few pressure vessels. I was a
college student at the time going to night school, however, lately
I've been thinking about a Harley 883 Sporster. If I catch one at a
good price......


... I
would not trust any yard in my area to do a holed (particularly below
the water line) hull in glass.

I wouldn't either. I'd do it myself.


.... If you don't feather back the edges
properly and back lap the repair, there will be a weak spot do to the
loss of the monolithic nature of the woven roving, mat and cloth. Not
sure I would ever trust it. Not an issue with steel.


A weld can never be as strong as the original metal.

I concur with Joe. It certainly can. If it is fully penetrated,
properly tied into the base metal with no cold lapping or undercutting
it will as strong as the original metal. (provided you use the proper
filler metal). You do have to be somewhat concerned about shrinkage
at the heat affected zone, but that can be handled.


A
properly done fiberglass repair can be stronger than the
original... in fact, it can be a problem if you make the
patch too stiff because that throws more stress to the other
areas of the hull.

Looks to me like you guys who are already welders have a lot
of faith in metal... that's good. OTOH it would be
interesting to see your opinion after studying a text on
composite engineering. I have done minor fiberglass work for
many years, but recently decided to learn more about it &
the best books seem to be focussed on aviation.

Just talking about repairs here. I'm not promoting steel as the best
boat building material. And you're right, it is a matter of
perspective and circumstance, what's in your skill bag. I've done
both (although never to repair a holed hull with either) and my
druthers would be to weld a repair.


That said, I'd still rather have a glass boat. Did someone mention
rust as an issue?


Why no. Is rust a problem for steel boats?? Who'd a thunk
it?

DSK

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Just talking about repairs here. I'm not promoting steel as the best
boat building material.

It's certainly very practical for some types of
boatbuilding. I'm not trying to say it isn't.



.... And you're right, it is a matter of
perspective and circumstance, what's in your skill bag. I've done
both (although never to repair a holed hull with either) and my
druthers would be to weld a repair.


Part of my point is that people go with what they know. I am
not a welder.

It also seems to me that materials & tools for fiberglass
repair are much simpler & cheaper & easier to carry around
than materials & tools for welding; for that matter,
materials for fiberglass repair are available at Home
Depot... so is some welding stuff, of course...

As for learning, it's easily possible to teach people to do
first-class fiberglass molding in two or three days. The
problem is that they're not likely to be diligent enough
once teacher is gone, and somehow it does not seem to be the
type of work that most people take pride in... "Gee, it
looks just like *real* fiberglass."

The result is that most fiberglass workers cut corner when
they shouldn't and the repair is weaker (especially if it
involves a secondary bond). That's one of two reasons why I
do it myself (and it also proves an old old saying).

As for the motorcycle/welder connection... ain't the world a
funny place!

DSK

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

I've been thinking about a Harley 883 Sporster. If I
catch one at a
good price......


That's a girls bike, Frank

Scotty

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:58:05 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote

I've been thinking about a Harley 883 Sporster. If I
catch one at a
good price......


That's a girls bike, Frank

Scotty


Well, not a matter of image for me and I don't want it for touring.
basic local transportation with a little fun thrown in.

Every morning I get in my truck and ride about 5 miles one way to a
trail head and then I run 5-8 miles. Ten miles with truck mileage.
The bike would be more fun and less gas.

Besides, most of those so called " tough guys" that I know that have
big Harleys put them on trailers or trucks and haul them to "ride ins"
Now that's really macho. And they couldn't run 80 yards much less 8
miles.

And it's a matter of perspective. When I was a kid a 300CC bike was
considered a "big" bike. Pushing 60, I want something that is fun
without busting the bank.

Frank

Wow! I haven't seen a bite like that since Jaws!

Scotty


"Joe" took the bait and ran
with......

DSK wrote:
Well, that's an issue for another discussion. Steel
boats
have their disadvantages from my point of view, too



Scotty wrote:
Besides the rust, and being heavy and slow, what are
the
disadvantages of a steel boat.


Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's
not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.

You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper
to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world. I could
repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months
on fragile
glass, and you have that itchy dust, expensive resins,
soft cores,
matching gel-coats and it goes on and on for the flammable
fiberglass.

It can never be as strong as a well-engineered and well
built fiberglass hull & deck, much less carbon fiber.


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......bwahahaha hahahahaha
hahahaha

The
biggest disadvantage is the rust, howewver, which once
it
starts will never stop and eats away at every part of
the
boat, especially the inaccessible crevices which are
structurally critical.

Sounds like you know nothing about maintaining a steel
boat.

Then there's the issue of galvanic corrosion, not as bad
as
aluminum but a dropped wire can eat right thru it, as
can a
penny in the bilge. The rust is also a constant problem.

Oh boy, a penny in the bilge fool, I guess you glass guys
leave stray
wires adrift in contact with your hulls allot. Guess you
yse romax and
do not run your wires in approved casings. Not smart,
better check your
zincs.

Because the galavanic corrosion, if lead ballast is used
it
must be very carefully insulated from the structural
parts
of the boat (usually done with fiberglass, which was
originally invented as electrical insulation).

Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.

Alos because
steel is so heavy, it is difficult to design a steel
boat
that can carry a high proportion of ballast. Don't
forget
about rust.

Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson? Not
enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..You
pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?



Almost every steel boat will have slight ripples in the
metal from welding,

Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like
crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets
to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.
I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that
FG experts.

and it will look crummy or else be
filled with Bondo.

My DeVires has zero bondo, and I challenge anyone to find
a weld on the
outside of my hull or cabin

This isn't really a bad problem as long
as the putty doesn't fall off from rust under it.

As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man
hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a
steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.

How old is Ol Ironsides?

The first ship I
was on actually had fiberglass patches on the hull where
the
rust had eaten thru. What does that tell you?

1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were
inept.
2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were
inept.
3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused
and neglected
all its life due to neglect.

I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the
ones not able
to do any rough work. All the LCM's, LCVP's, were made of
steel, cept
some of the old Higgins were marine plywood. Fiberglass
was for the
delicate gig's, barges, and liberty boats.

Something like
"Build it out of fiberglass in the first place!"

More like.
"Dereliction of duty is a specifical offence in military
law. It
includes various elements centred around the avoidance of
any duty
which may be properly expected."

"In the US Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) it is
contained
within the regulations governing the failure to obey an
order or
regulation. It means that one willfully, through
negligence or culpable
inefficiency fails to perform one's expected duties.
Ineptitude is a
defence against the charge. The maximum penalty in the US
is a
bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of pay and six months
confinement.
Acts which are derelict may be charged under more specific
offences
such as missing movement, noncompliance with procedural
rules,
misbehaviour, malingering, self-injury with intent to
avoid service, or
straggling."


But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel
plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new
fiberglass
tank armor.


yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....

Joe



DSK