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#1
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too crowded
I havent done much sailing this year on my 28' S2 but have been sailing
smaller boats instead, like a Laser, my MiniCups and Flying Scot. However, yesterday we went sailing on the S2 with another family. I asked them to sail with us because this friend had remarked that his small son wanted to try sailing. They arrived at the dock with a 12 yr old daughter, a 9 year old son, and a 18 month old and the two of them. FORTUNATELY, my 19 year old daughter was working and my 16 year old son realized how crowded it would be and decided to hang out on shore. (The couple, their 3 kids, my wife and I and 9 year old daughter) I thought, "OK, we sail back and forth under main alone and finally one of em gets seasick so we come in". It was slightly choppyand about 14 kts and I got the main up in spite of the crowd. The kids mostly stayed down below at first and out of the way. My own family makes me crazy when we sail so I was nervous about somebody elses. Sure enough, the kids finally all wanted to sit on the bow. This was all I needed, trying to sail while I watched a bunch of other kids. I insisted they all wear life jackets when out of the cabin AND that they all tie in when outside the cockpit. Of course, my wife couldnt figger out how to tie em in so I had to leave the tiller to her while I did it and she gets so busy talking the boat wanders all ovetr the bay. With the main flapping like crazy I finally regained the tiller. At least the dad decided to stay on the bow with em. Still, I was nervous as i could possibly be. My wife realizing we were really going slow decided we had to unroll the RF jib so I insisted the kids leave the bow cuz I just knew someone would get hit by the clips on the jibsheets. So this meant they could play in the V-berth and stand in the forward hatch. Unfortunately, it meant three adults and a baby in the cockpit, waaaaaaaay crowded. I can almost not sail under such conditions. Every time I tacked I had to ask the wife holding the baby to move and was constantly stepping over someone. My cockpit is large but seems very crowded with just three adults. How do other people handle this? Next. they all wanted the bimini up. Sure, its sunny, being June in Florida, but I really want to be able to see my sail and hate the bimini for this reason but up it went. Do other people dislike their bimini for this reason? Finally, the mom goes below to nurse the little one so I can finally really sail. I get on a good point of sail and even with only a partially unfurled jib she digs in, heels over and starts charging across the bay. It feels wonderful. The Clino says 20 degrees and I ease off to get a little more speed and she heels more. Crash, slide, uh-oh, their baby stuff slides across the cabin and mom on the downhill settee looks concerned so I ease off. The wind picks up a little more, the beginnings of Alberto hundresds of miles away and the chop is a little more. The 9 year old son sits in the cockpit corner with that look that says SEASICK, a perfect opportunity to go in. So, you'd think a 28' boat would be large enough for company but three adults and a baby int he cockpit is simply waaaaaaay overcrowded. I cannot imagine that larger boats really have much larger cockpits, it'd be unsarfe. So, what do people do? Do I decide to not have company and go back to sailing alone or just with one of my kids? |
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#2
posted to alt.sailing.asa
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too crowded
wrote in message oups.com... I havent done much sailing this year on my 28' S2 but have been sailing smaller boats instead, like a Laser, my MiniCups and Flying Scot. However, yesterday we went sailing on the S2 with another family. I asked them to sail with us because this friend had remarked that his small son wanted to try sailing. They arrived at the dock with a 12 yr old daughter, a 9 year old son, and a 18 month old and the two of them. FORTUNATELY, my 19 year old daughter was working and my 16 year old son realized how crowded it would be and decided to hang out on shore. (The couple, their 3 kids, my wife and I and 9 year old daughter) I thought, "OK, we sail back and forth under main alone and finally one of em gets seasick so we come in". It was slightly choppyand about 14 kts and I got the main up in spite of the crowd. The kids mostly stayed down below at first and out of the way. My own family makes me crazy when we sail so I was nervous about somebody elses. Sure enough, the kids finally all wanted to sit on the bow. This was all I needed, trying to sail while I watched a bunch of other kids. I insisted they all wear life jackets when out of the cabin AND that they all tie in when outside the cockpit. Of course, my wife couldnt figger out how to tie em in so I had to leave the tiller to her while I did it and she gets so busy talking the boat wanders all ovetr the bay. With the main flapping like crazy I finally regained the tiller. At least the dad decided to stay on the bow with em. Still, I was nervous as i could possibly be. My wife realizing we were really going slow decided we had to unroll the RF jib so I insisted the kids leave the bow cuz I just knew someone would get hit by the clips on the jibsheets. So this meant they could play in the V-berth and stand in the forward hatch. Unfortunately, it meant three adults and a baby in the cockpit, waaaaaaaay crowded. I can almost not sail under such conditions. Every time I tacked I had to ask the wife holding the baby to move and was constantly stepping over someone. My cockpit is large but seems very crowded with just three adults. How do other people handle this? Next. they all wanted the bimini up. Sure, its sunny, being June in Florida, but I really want to be able to see my sail and hate the bimini for this reason but up it went. Do other people dislike their bimini for this reason? Finally, the mom goes below to nurse the little one so I can finally really sail. I get on a good point of sail and even with only a partially unfurled jib she digs in, heels over and starts charging across the bay. It feels wonderful. The Clino says 20 degrees and I ease off to get a little more speed and she heels more. Crash, slide, uh-oh, their baby stuff slides across the cabin and mom on the downhill settee looks concerned so I ease off. The wind picks up a little more, the beginnings of Alberto hundresds of miles away and the chop is a little more. The 9 year old son sits in the cockpit corner with that look that says SEASICK, a perfect opportunity to go in. So, you'd think a 28' boat would be large enough for company but three adults and a baby int he cockpit is simply waaaaaaay overcrowded. I cannot imagine that larger boats really have much larger cockpits, it'd be unsarfe. So, what do people do? Do I decide to not have company and go back to sailing alone or just with one of my kids? Get a smaller boat. |
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#3
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too crowded
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#5
posted to alt.sailing.asa
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too crowded
wrote:
katy wrote: wrote: It was really my mistake, I knew he had kids and rarely does anything without them. About your cockpit, seating is not a problem but somebody is always in front of the winch, etc. You always have to reach over someone to adjust the mainsheet (it is in the companionway). You dont find reaching around people to tend sheets to be a hassle? The kids on the bow probably was a mistake but otherwise they woulda been in the cockpit or on cabin top, etc. Inside for long meant quick seasickness.. They were tied in with lifejackets on. Asign people jobs...we had 5 kids, 4 boys and 1 girl...they need to be kept busy..12 and 9 is old enough and strong enough to use the winch or to tail...problem is, you don't delegate but run the whole show by yourself...no one will ever learn to sail with you because all they can do is watch...were you this bad when your 16 year old took Driver's Ed? It's just like that (only really not nearly as dangerous...you can make bigger bloopers in a sailboat than you can in a car and get away with it...) And no, reaching around people, or telling them waht you want them to do doesn't bother mme i the least...I'm great at telling people what to do...maybe that's what you need...a cruise director! |
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#6
posted to alt.sailing.asa
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too crowded
wrote in message oups.com... So, you'd think a 28' boat would be large enough for company but three adults and a baby int he cockpit is simply waaaaaaay overcrowded. I cannot imagine that larger boats really have much larger cockpits, it'd be unsarfe. So, what do people do? Do I decide to not have company and go back to sailing alone or just with one of my kids? This is one of those occasions that can only benefit from hindsight. We've all made mistakes, and many people don't learn from their errors. The fact that you were shocked by the experience says that you are a responsible sailor. Katy has offered sensible advice. If there are too many people aboard, try to find an "important" job for all of them. ie, put them in charge of something (a sheet?). This tactic works very well with young children, if conditions allow. Regards Donal -- |
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#7
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too crowded
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#8
posted to alt.sailing.asa
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too crowded
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On 12 Jun 2006 13:42:25 -0700, wrote: snipped all that stuff I had nine on my Columbia 8.7, four adults and five kids ranging in age from 5-12 years old for one trip, with me the only individual on the boat that knew how to sail. Coming back from Ship Island about five miles to go encountered one of those August afternoon upper gulf black squalls. What a nightmare. The extra crew was my Sister's family. To this day, she has never stepped foot on another boat. Hey have you ever crossed the big bend area down to Suwannee, Steinhatchee, and on to Cedar Key. If so, what's it like. Thinking about doing some Gunkholing in that area, maybe this fall. Frank I've been to Cedar Key by land...wow...that's shallow water around there...the marina was surrounded by one of those fakey Florida boardwalk tourista area things with nothing else for miles around...what would be fun would be to motor up the Suwannee to where the manatees play at the State Park with the warm springs.....lots of gators, though.... |
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#9
posted to alt.sailing.asa
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too crowded
wrote:
However, yesterday we went sailing on the S2 with another family. I asked them to sail with us because this friend had remarked that his small son wanted to try sailing. They arrived at the dock with a 12 yr old daughter, a 9 year old son, and a 18 month old and the two of them. Was this a surprise or did you know you were going to get such a crowd? I thought, "OK, we sail back and forth under main alone and finally one of em gets seasick so we come in". It was slightly choppyand about 14 kts and I got the main up in spite of the crowd. Now here is your first mistake. You have mistaken the goal of getting sail set & the boat into a certain mode (possibly to a certain area). Wrong approach, the goal is to have fun. Start out at the dock by taking them on a tour of the boat. Show them the ropes, quite literally! And as much of the other stuff as their patience seems likely to take in... don't bore them silly before setting out. This is a good time to set some safety rules too, and to make the point to the parents that *they* will have to keep an eye on the ones too little to take care of themselves. It will also give the older ones a chance to feel grown up and be responsible for themselves. .... The kids mostly stayed down below at first and out of the way. My own family makes me crazy when we sail so I was nervous about somebody elses. Sure enough, the kids finally all wanted to sit on the bow. This was all I needed, trying to sail while I watched a bunch of other kids. I insisted they all wear life jackets when out of the cabin That's a very sensible precaution. ... AND that they all tie in when outside the cockpit. In the absence of proper harnesses & jacklines, I don't know if this is such a good idea. But if you are so paranoid about one going over the side, do a man-overboard drill with a volunteer... one of the bigger kids, or one of the parents (kids LOVE this). .... Of course, my wife couldnt figger out how to tie em in so I had to leave the tiller to her while I did it and she gets so busy talking the boat wanders all ovetr the bay. With the main flapping like crazy I finally regained the tiller. At least the dad decided to stay on the bow with em. Still, I was nervous as i could possibly be. Sounds to me like you don't really have control of yourself, which makes it difficult to be in control of the situation. One way to get a grip on this is to think two jumps ahead, and do everything slowly, explaining what is happening and what everybody should do, as it happens. This gets people involved in sailing the boat. I bet you were leaping around the boat like a jackrabbit, and to the others your behavior was unpredictable and unpleasant even if you were not cussing at them. My wife realizing we were really going slow decided we had to unroll the RF jib so I insisted the kids leave the bow cuz I just knew someone would get hit by the clips on the jibsheets. So why the heck do you have clips on the jibsheets? .... So this meant they could play in the V-berth and stand in the forward hatch. This was one of the favorite things for our nieces and nephews to do when they were small. ... Unfortunately, it meant three adults and a baby in the cockpit, waaaaaaaay crowded. I can almost not sail under such conditions. Every time I tacked I had to ask the wife holding the baby to move and was constantly stepping over someone. My cockpit is large but seems very crowded with just three adults. How do other people handle this? Can't you steer from the low side? Why neurotically demand that everybody move all the time, if all you have to do is steer? Better yet, why don't you park yourself elsewhere and let somebody else steer? Next. they all wanted the bimini up. Sure, its sunny, being June in Florida, but I really want to be able to see my sail and hate the bimini for this reason but up it went. Do other people dislike their bimini for this reason? Yes and I always feel the windage is dragging the boat backwards. However when the sun is blazing, that takes priority. Why not furl the main and sail with just the jib, which is a lot less critical... also it helps develop the ability to sail by feel. Finally, the mom goes below to nurse the little one so I can finally really sail. I get on a good point of sail and even with only a partially unfurled jib she digs in, heels over and starts charging across the bay. It feels wonderful. The Clino says 20 degrees and I ease off to get a little more speed and she heels more. Crash, slide, uh-oh, their baby stuff slides across the cabin and mom on the downhill settee looks concerned so I ease off. Did you explain to her (or anyone) what was going to happen? One of the things that landlubbers find the most scary about boats is that ALL OF A SUDDEN the sail comes crashing over, the boat leans, water surges up over the rail, etc etc. They can't tell if it is supposed to be part of the fun, or if the boat is sinking. Another thing, when you tell the crew exactly what is going to happen, and it does, then they have a great deal more confidence in your ability. The wind picks up a little more, the beginnings of Alberto hundresds of miles away and the chop is a little more. The 9 year old son sits in the cockpit corner with that look that says SEASICK, a perfect opportunity to go in. So, you'd think a 28' boat would be large enough for company but three adults and a baby int he cockpit is simply waaaaaaay overcrowded. I cannot imagine that larger boats really have much larger cockpits, it'd be unsarfe. So, what do people do? Do I decide to not have company and go back to sailing alone or just with one of my kids? Yes. And bigger boats often do have bigger cockpits. It sounds to me like your boat isn't really set up for company, that you dislike it yourself, and you are deliberately (or perhaps subconsciously) driving everybody to hate sailing so you can go back to doing it alone. A fairly common scenario, actually. katysails wrote: We use extra people for ballast but when it's little bitties, not much you can do... the 12 and 9 year old are certainly within the age of reason to be able to understand directions...you should have involved them in sailing the boat... Exactly. ... next time someone approached you wanting to sail, be direct. Make sure you ask "It will be you and your son" If more show up, just be honest nad say, "Sorry, folks, neither me nor my boat is up to this. There must have been a misunderstanding..." Exactly. That is how the skipper should take control of the situation right from the start. Not to be a raging Capt Bligh about it though wrote: It was really my mistake, I knew he had kids and rarely does anything without them. About your cockpit, seating is not a problem but somebody is always in front of the winch, etc. You always have to reach over someone to adjust the mainsheet (it is in the companionway). You dont find reaching around people to tend sheets to be a hassle? No, I make them do it. Or else get everybody sitting up on the cabin top or on the rail. The kids on the bow probably was a mistake but otherwise they woulda been in the cockpit or on cabin top, etc. What's wrong with them sitting up there? .... Inside for long meant quick seasickness.. They were tied in with lifejackets on. Lifejackets are good. We have some excellent vest types in several sizes, when we have kids aboard who have to wear life jackets, I wear one too. Makes it seem less like punishment to them. We have had non-sailing company for short trips many times, including storms.... one time some friends from work who were surprisingly clumsy and paranoid about the water, don't know why they said they wanted to go sailing. I spent a great deal of time showing them that the boat was well ballasted and would not tip over, how to control the sails with the various lines, where was a good place to sit, etc etc. For example, I told them in advance that the sailing of the boat took precedence over conversation and that I would have to interrupt them. I told them when we were going to tack that the boat was going to lean over the other way. Etc etc etc. It was rather tiring for me. We didn't spend much time sailing and of course we got hit with a real bad thunderstorm. I sent everybody below to play cards while I sailed the boat under a small corner of the jib so that we'd be closer to the home dock when the storm was over. The main advice I can give you is to be more flexible in the way you go about things, consider the goal. Most importantly don't let circumstances drive you, you must think ahead, be in control, and drive the situation. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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#10
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too crowded
Doug,
Your advice is quite sensible. However, the slow, dimwitted, ignorant or those with thin sensibilities are spared. My comments interspersed below show how I need to make my point only once. "DSK" wrote in message .. . wrote: However, yesterday we went sailing on the S2 with another family. I asked them to sail with us because this friend had remarked that his small son wanted to try sailing. They arrived at the dock with a 12 yr old daughter, a 9 year old son, and a 18 month old and the two of them. How much for the little girls? Remember Jake and Elwood! Was this a surprise or did you know you were going to get such a crowd? I thought, "OK, we sail back and forth under main alone and finally one of em gets seasick so we come in". It was slightly choppyand about 14 kts and I got the main up in spite of the crowd. Exhaust fumes in enclosed spaces work much faster. You won't have to leave the dock. Now here is your first mistake. You have mistaken the goal of getting sail set & the boat into a certain mode (possibly to a certain area). Wrong approach, the goal is to have fun. Everyone wants to have fun! Blah! Sailing is for suffering and character building! Amusement parks are for fun. There is no fun or thrills in sailing! Start out at the dock by taking them on a tour of the boat. Show them the ropes, quite literally! Show them rope burn! And as much of the other stuff as their patience seems likely to take in... don't bore them silly before setting out. Issue orders! This is a good time to set some safety rules too, and to make the point to the parents that *they* will have to keep an eye on the ones too little to take care of themselves. Tell them tales of doom and horror stories. Remember driver's ed and metal shop safety films. It will also give the older ones a chance to feel grown up and be responsible for themselves. If they're not already grown up they're not going on my boat! .... The kids mostly stayed down below at first and out of the way. My own family makes me crazy when we sail so I was nervous about somebody elses. Sure enough, the kids finally all wanted to sit on the bow. This was all I needed, trying to sail while I watched a bunch of other kids. I insisted they all wear life jackets when out of the cabin That's a very sensible precaution. Screw life jackets. Issue lead diver's weights. That will get them thinking! ... AND that they all tie in when outside the cockpit. In the absence of proper harnesses & jacklines, I don't know if this is such a good idea. Tie them directly to the mast. But if you are so paranoid about one going over the side, do a man-overboard drill with a volunteer... one of the bigger kids, or one of the parents (kids LOVE this). Show them what propellers do to manatees. .... Of course, my wife couldnt figger out how to tie em in so I had to leave the tiller to her while I did it and she gets so busy talking the boat wanders all ovetr the bay. With the main flapping like crazy I finally regained the tiller. At least the dad decided to stay on the bow with em. Still, I was nervous as i could possibly be. Sounds to me like you don't really have control of yourself, which makes it difficult to be in control of the situation. Control or confidence? One way to get a grip on this is to think two jumps ahead, and do everything slowly, explaining what is happening and what everybody should do, as it happens. This gets people involved in sailing the boat. I bet you were leaping around the boat like a jackrabbit, and to the others your behavior was unpredictable and unpleasant even if you were not cussing at them. I keep ice tea in a Jack Daniels quart bottle. I chug it before starting out. The guests think it's booze. They are all scared. My wife realizing we were really going slow decided we had to unroll the RF jib so I insisted the kids leave the bow cuz I just knew someone would get hit by the clips on the jibsheets. So why the heck do you have clips on the jibsheets? To hit kids. I have a small kayak anchor tied to the jibsheet. Gelcoat takes a beating, but so do guests. .... So this meant they could play in the V-berth and stand in the forward hatch. This was one of the favorite things for our nieces and nephews to do when they were small. Lesson: Leave the bees that nest in the forward compartment alone. They are your friends. ... Unfortunately, it meant three adults and a baby in the cockpit, waaaaaaaay crowded. I can almost not sail under such conditions. Every time I tacked I had to ask the wife holding the baby to move and was constantly stepping over someone. My cockpit is large but seems very crowded with just three adults. How do other people handle this? Can't you steer from the low side? Why neurotically demand that everybody move all the time, if all you have to do is steer? Better yet, why don't you park yourself elsewhere and let somebody else steer? Good advice. Let someone else steer while you guzzle a second quart of "Jack Daniels" ice tea. Next. they all wanted the bimini up. Sure, its sunny, being June in Florida, but I really want to be able to see my sail and hate the bimini for this reason but up it went. Do other people dislike their bimini for this reason? Yes and I always feel the windage is dragging the boat backwards. However when the sun is blazing, that takes priority. Why not furl the main and sail with just the jib, which is a lot less critical... also it helps develop the ability to sail by feel. No bimini = skin cancer. If you want to look like a quilt with all the chunks of skin cut out of you by all means, no bimini. Finally, the mom goes below to nurse the little one so I can finally really sail. I get on a good point of sail and even with only a partially unfurled jib she digs in, heels over and starts charging across the bay. It feels wonderful. The Clino says 20 degrees and I ease off to get a little more speed and she heels more. Crash, slide, uh-oh, their baby stuff slides across the cabin and mom on the downhill settee looks concerned so I ease off. Did you explain to her (or anyone) what was going to happen? One of the things that landlubbers find the most scary about boats is that ALL OF A SUDDEN the sail comes crashing over, the boat leans, water surges up over the rail, etc etc. They can't tell if it is supposed to be part of the fun, or if the boat is sinking. Yell, "We are sinking! We are doomed!" Another thing, when you tell the crew exactly what is going to happen, and it does, then they have a great deal more confidence in your ability. That spoils the fun. I say go for a third quart of ice tea. The wind picks up a little more, the beginnings of Alberto hundresds of miles away and the chop is a little more. The 9 year old son sits in the cockpit corner with that look that says SEASICK, a perfect opportunity to go in. So, you'd think a 28' boat would be large enough for company but three adults and a baby int he cockpit is simply waaaaaaay overcrowded. I cannot imagine that larger boats really have much larger cockpits, it'd be unsarfe. So, what do people do? Do I decide to not have company and go back to sailing alone or just with one of my kids? Yes. And bigger boats often do have bigger cockpits. It sounds to me like your boat isn't really set up for company, that you dislike it yourself, and you are deliberately (or perhaps subconsciously) driving everybody to hate sailing so you can go back to doing it alone. A fairly common scenario, actually. I have an 8 foot cockpit in my fine cruiser. That's room enough for 2. Why get them to hate sailing? If they like sailing they can sail on someone else's boat. The key is to get them to hate YOU. Then they never go sailing with YOU. katysails wrote: We use extra people for ballast but when it's little bitties, not much you can do... the 12 and 9 year old are certainly within the age of reason to be able to understand directions...you should have involved them in sailing the boat... Exactly. Exactly the reason to put children back into the labor force. ... next time someone approached you wanting to sail, be direct. Make sure you ask "It will be you and your son" If more show up, just be honest nad say, "Sorry, folks, neither me nor my boat is up to this. There must have been a misunderstanding..." Exactly. That is how the skipper should take control of the situation right from the start. Not to be a raging Capt Bligh about it though Bligh was an excellent sailor and Captain. I tell people I have no boat so they won't ask and if they think otherwise I tell them I'm a rotten incompetent sailor. Makes for a spacious cockpit. wrote: It was really my mistake, I knew he had kids and rarely does anything without them. About your cockpit, seating is not a problem but somebody is always in front of the winch, etc. You always have to reach over someone to adjust the mainsheet (it is in the companionway). You dont find reaching around people to tend sheets to be a hassle? No, I make them do it. Or else get everybody sitting up on the cabin top or on the rail. Rope burn. The kids on the bow probably was a mistake but otherwise they woulda been in the cockpit or on cabin top, etc. What's wrong with them sitting up there? No one on the cabin top! What a pack of gypsies! .... Inside for long meant quick seasickness.. They were tied in with lifejackets on. The smell of vomit can get a peristaltic chain reaction going. Hurling fake plastic vomit is enough to get things started. Lifejackets are good. We have some excellent vest types in several sizes, when we have kids aboard who have to wear life jackets, I wear one too. Makes it seem less like punishment to them. I carry only 2 lifejaCKETS. no more. The rest are diver's weights. We have had non-sailing company for short trips many times, including storms.... one time some friends from work who were surprisingly clumsy and paranoid about the water, don't know why they said they wanted to go sailing. I spent a great deal of time showing them that the boat was well ballasted and would not tip over, how to control the sails with the various lines, where was a good place to sit, etc etc. For example, I told them in advance that the sailing of the boat took precedence over conversation and that I would have to interrupt them. I told them when we were going to tack that the boat was going to lean over the other way. Etc etc etc. It was rather tiring for me. Life is too important to waste. We didn't spend much time sailing and of course we got hit with a real bad thunderstorm. I sent everybody below to play cards while I sailed the boat under a small corner of the jib so that we'd be closer to the home dock when the storm was over. Give them bailing buckets and tell them about lightning. The main advice I can give you is to be more flexible in the way you go about things, consider the goal. Most importantly don't let circumstances drive you, you must think ahead, be in control, and drive the situation. Control begins with who you let aboard. Fear and pain are great motivators, understood by all lifeforms. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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