Ethanol; working now
 

Thats nothing, more soda pop is sold per second.

Lets get real here, oil is cheap and used to make just about
everything.

We still have an ambundant supply on earth but it's getting more
expensive to get it...simple supply and demand issue.

Enjoy the cheap gasoline, lets save the whales for the sea, the sugar
cane for the sugarbowls, and hershey bars, and sugar beets for
thanksgiving!

Barleys for beer, not gas tanks!

Capt. Suzy
35s5
NY

Jeb Bush for President!

Ethanol; working now
 

Joe,

I really don't like those "Ragheads" having such a firm grip on our
Balls. I guess I have to class "Big Oil" with the Ragheads, with their
Gouging record breaking Profits.
I know its going the hurt, loosening that grip and it will take time.
(More time than I have left in my life) Let's get it started Now! Let's
not let Big Oil drive us into a "Depression" (Even though they send we
New Money each month)

No better time to start than RIGHT NOW!

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Ethanol; working now
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 May 2006 03:01:12 GMT, "Maxprop" said:

The numbers I've seen, with respect to cellulosic ethanol production, are
far less.

I understand there are other problems with using that process. It may have
promise, but we're not there yet.

What sort of problems? The Brazilians are using sugar cane--the whole
plant--which is a type of cellulosic + sugar-based ethanol production. And
they have divorced themselves completely from foreign oil importation.

Max

Ethanol; working now
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Max,

Here is the figures from the Dept of Ag;
These figure are for Corn Cellular is even better, with less emissions

Ethanol; working now

Ethanol has a positive energy balance, meaning the ethanol yields more
energy than it takes to produce it. It is an efficient fuel made through
an efficient process.
It takes less than 35,000 BTUs of energy to turn corn into ethanol,
while the ethanol offers at least 77,000 BTUs of energy. Ethanol's
energy balance is clearly positive.
Research studies from a variety of sources have found ethanol to have a
positive net energy balance. The most recent, by the U.S. Department of
Agriculture, shows that ethanol provides an average net energy gain of
at least 77%.

One faulty, outdated study shows ethanol's net energy balance to be
negative. That research uses fundamentally flawed, decades old data that
is not valid considering today's efficiencies in agriculture and in
ethanol

Logic would presume that ultimately a compendium of different methods of
producing ethanol will be utilized, all with some degree of success. Like
it or not, ethanol is coming, and it will be the predominant source of fuel
for automobiles at some time in the future. Unlike petroleum, it is
renewable and meets at least some of the requirements of a cleaner-emission
fuel. Ethanol's detractors better get used to it.

Max

Ethanol; working now
 

Maxprop wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 May 2006 03:01:12 GMT, "Maxprop" said:

The numbers I've seen, with respect to cellulosic ethanol production, are
far less.
I understand there are other problems with using that process. It may have
promise, but we're not there yet.

What sort of problems? The Brazilians are using sugar cane--the whole
plant--which is a type of cellulosic + sugar-based ethanol production. And
they have divorced themselves completely from foreign oil importation.

Max


And it was announced yesterday that we (the US) are going to import
Brazilian ethanol (can't remember if it was on MSNBC or
FOXEWS)...one of the reasons given was that you can't run a pipeline
from the Midwest to the East because it condenses in the pipe...What
happened to our trucking system and trains??? Another reason was to
strengthen our relationships within this hemisphere...(yeah...look
at what NAFTA did for us....)

Ethanol; working now
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 May 2006 03:01:12 GMT, "Maxprop"
said:

The numbers I've seen, with respect to cellulosic
ethanol production, are
far less.
I understand there are other problems with using that
process. It may have
promise, but we're not there yet.

What sort of problems? The Brazilians are using sugar
cane--the whole
plant--which is a type of cellulosic + sugar-based
ethanol production. And
they have divorced themselves completely from foreign
oil importation.

Max


And it was announced yesterday that we (the US) are going
to import
Brazilian ethanol (can't remember if it was on MSNBC or
FOXEWS)...one of the reasons given was that you can't run
a pipeline
from the Midwest to the East because it condenses in the
pipe...What
happened to our trucking system and trains??? Another
reason was to
strengthen our relationships within this
hemisphere...(yeah...look
at what NAFTA did for us....)

We import a lot of steel castings from Brazil. Cheap, about
half of USA made.

Scotty

Ethanol; working now
 

Katy,

Don't pay to much attention to Dave on this subject, he is an AGAINSTER
of ethanol. He can't seem to realize that Ethanol is a perfected fuel
and getting better all the time.

Cellulosic Ethanol is cheaper and a better fuel than Corn Ethanol and
more and more methods are being developed in its production all the
time. Not all of them are successful as others but Cellulosic Ethanol is
in production now and a proven commercial form of fuel.

Most of the sugar mills in So America have added a Cellulosic Unit to
their operation. It produces profit from what was a waste disposal
problem. The production of Cellulosic Ethanol, when using gas to
separate the Carbon Monoxide from the Alcohol produces Heat. A lot of
heat. They are Co-Generating Electricity with it while using waste and
heat disposal. There are still several other methods being explored and
developed that aren't perfected as yet that hold promise. That may what
"Chicken Little Dave" is talking about.

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Ethanol; working now
 

Thom, carbon monoxide is a gas already while alcohol is a liquid. Why the
need to bring in another gas to separate two substances that seem likely to
separate themselves naturally?

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Katy,

Don't pay to much attention to Dave on this subject, he is an AGAINSTER
of ethanol. He can't seem to realize that Ethanol is a perfected fuel
and getting better all the time.

Cellulosic Ethanol is cheaper and a better fuel than Corn Ethanol and
more and more methods are being developed in its production all the
time. Not all of them are successful as others but Cellulosic Ethanol is
in production now and a proven commercial form of fuel.

Most of the sugar mills in So America have added a Cellulosic Unit to
their operation. It produces profit from what was a waste disposal
problem. The production of Cellulosic Ethanol, when using gas to
separate the Carbon Monoxide from the Alcohol produces Heat. A lot of
heat. They are Co-Generating Electricity with it while using waste and
heat disposal. There are still several other methods being explored and
developed that aren't perfected as yet that hold promise. That may what
"Chicken Little Dave" is talking about.

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Ethanol; working now
 

Edgar,

This says it better than I. Just remember and awful lot is old reshearch
(Mid 1990's and is in the beginning stages of production)


Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running!****
Cellulosic ethanol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Cellulosic ethanol is a blend of normal ethanol that can be produced
from a great diversity of biomass including waste from urban,
agricultural, and forestry sources. There are at least two methods of
production of cellulosic ethanolâ€"enzymatic hydrolysis and
synthesis gas fermentation. Neither process generates toxic emissions
when it produces ethanol. The technology is very new and exists in pilot
configurations where testing is ongoing.
According to US Department of Energy studies conducted by the Argonne
Laboratories of the University of Chicago, one of the benefits of
cellulosic ethanol is that it reduces greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) by
85% over reformulated gasoline. By contrast, sugar-fermented ethanol
reduces GHG emissions by 18% to 29% over gasoline.
In April 2004, Iogen Corporation, a Canadian biotechnology firm, became
the first business to commercially sell cellulosic ethanol. The primary
consumer thus far has been the Canadian government, which, along with
the United States government (particularly the Department of Energy's
National Renewable Energy Laboratory), has invested millions of dollars
into assisting the commercialization of cellulosic ethanol.
Genencor and Novozymes are two other companies that have received United
States government Department of Energy funding for research into
reducing the cost of cellulase, a key enzyme in the production
cellulosic ethanol by enzymatic hydrolysis.
Other enzyme companies such as Dyadic International, Inc. (AMEX: DIL)
have been using fungi to develop and manufacture cellulases in 150,000
liter industrial fermenters since 1994. With the advent of genetic
engineering and genomics companies like Dyadic, Genencor and Novozymes
have the modern biological tools such as Dyadic's patented C1 Host
Technology [1] to develop and manufacture large volumes of new and
better performing enzyme mixtures to make the production of cellulosic
ethanol more economical.
BRI Energy, LLC is a company whose pilot plant in Fayetteville, Arkansas
is currently using synthesis gas fermentation to convert a variety of
waste into ethanol. After gasification, anaerobic bacteria (Clostridium
ljungdahlii) are used to convert the syngas (CO, CO2, and H2) into
ethanol. The heat generated by gasification is also used to co-generate
excess electricity.
There are two broad ways of producing alcohol from cellulose. Hydrolysis
breaks down the cellulose chains into sugar molecules that are then
fermented and distilled. Gasification transforms the carbon in the raw
material into a gaseous carbon monoxide that is then fed to a special
kind of fermenter.
[edit]
Hydrolysis processes
The cellulose molecules are composed of long chains of beta-glucose
molecules. In the hydrolysis process, these chains are broken down to
"free" the sugar, before feeding it to a fermenter for alcohol
production. There are four or five stages in the process:
An optional "pre-treatment" phase, to make the raw material such as wood
or straw amenable to hydrolysis,
Hydrolysis, to break down the molecules of cellulose into sugars;
Separation of the sugar solution from the residual materials, notably
lignin;
Fermentation of the sugar solution;
Distillation to produce 99.5% pure alcohol.
There are two major hydrolysis processes: a chemical reaction using
acids, or an enzymatic reaction.
[edit]
Chemical hydrolysis
In the traditional methods developed in the 19th century and at the
beginning of the 20th century, hydrolysis is performed by attacking the
cellulose with an acid under high heat and high pressure. Modern
variations of this technique are being explored by companies such as
Arkenol or BC International Corporation.
[edit]
Enzymatic Hydrolysis
Cellulose chains can be broken into beta-glucose atoms by the cellulase
enzyme. This reaction occurs at body temperature in the stomach of
ruminants, where the enzyme are produced by bacteriaâ€"there are
actually at least three enzymes, used at various stages of the
conversion. The enzymatic hydrolysis process depends on a steady supply
of the cellulase enzymes.
The IOGEN corporation is a Canadian producer of enzymes. They are
promoting an enzymatic hydrolysis process that uses "specially
engineered enzymes". The raw material (wood or straw) has to be
pre-treated to make it amenable to hydrolysis.
Genencor and Novozymes are two other companies that have received United
States government Department of Energy funding for research into
reducing the cost of cellulase, a key enzyme in the production
cellulosic ethanol by enzymatic hydrolysis.
Other enzyme companies such as Dyadic International, Inc. (AMEX: DIL)
have been using fungi to develop and manufacture cellulases in 150,000
liter industrial fermenters since 1994. With the advent of genetic
engineering and genomics companies like Dyadic, Genencor and Novozymes
have the modern biological tools such as Dyadic's patented C1 Host
Technology [2] to develop and manufacture large volumes of new and
better performing enzyme mixtures to make the production of cellulosic
ethanol
more economical.
[edit]


Gasification process
The gasification process of the BRI Energy company does not rely on
chemical decomposition of the cellulose chain. Instead of breaking the
cellulose into sugar molecules, the carbon in the raw material is
converted into carbon monoxide, using what amounts to partial
combustion. The carbon monoxide is then fed into a special kind of
fermenter. Instead of yeast, which operates on sugar, their process uses
a microorganism named “Clostridium ljungdahlii�. This
microorganism will ingest (eat) carbon monoxide and produce ethanol,
hydrogen and water. The process can thus be broken into three steps:
Gasification â€" Complex carbon based molecules are broken apart to
access the carbon as carbon monoxide
Fermentation â€" Convert the carbon monoxide into ethanol using the
Clostridium ljungdahlii organism
Distillation â€" Ethanol is separated from hydrogen and water
[edit]

Economic importance
The quest for alternative energies has provided many ways to produce
electricity, such as wind farms, hydropower, or solar cells. However,
about 40% of the total energy consumption is dedicated to transports and
in practice requires liquid fuels such as gasoline, diesel fuel, or
kerosene. These fuels are all obtained by refining petroleum. This
dependency on oil has two major drawbacks: burning fossil fuels such as
oil contributes to global warming; and importing oil creates a
dependency on oil producing countries. Ethanol fuel is a practical
alternative to oil.

Ethanol, today, is produced mostly from sugars or starches, obtained
from fruits and grains. In contrast, cellulosic ethanol is obtained from
cellulose, the main component of wood, straw and much of the plants.
Since cellulose cannot be digested by humans, the production of
cellulose does not compete with the production of food. The price per
ton of the raw material is thus much cheaper than grains or fruits.
Moreover, since cellulose is the main components of plants, the whole
plant can be harvested. This results in much better yields per
acreâ€"up to 10 tons, instead of 4 or 5 tons for the best crops of
grain.
The raw material is plentiful. Cellulose is present in every plant:
straw, grass, wood. Most of these "bio-mass" products are currently
discarded. Transforming them into ethanol might provide as much as 30%
of the current fuel consumption in the USâ€"and probably similar
figures in other oil-importing regions like China or Europe. Moreover,
even land marginal for agriculture could be planted with cellulose
producing crops like switchgrass, resulting in enough production to
substitute for all the current oil imports.
[edit]

GROUP:
This, I hope, is my last OT post on this subject. I think I've said
enough. At least enough to understand there is an answer to reducing
Imported Oil. Not the total answer; not yet anyway, but a very real way
to reduce Imported Oil RIGHT NOW!

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Ethanol; working now
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote:
| Joe,
|
| I really don't like those "Ragheads" having such a firm grip on our
| Balls. I guess I have to class "Big Oil" with the Ragheads, with their
| Gouging record breaking Profits.
| I know its going the hurt, loosening that grip and it will take time.
| (More time than I have left in my life) Let's get it started Now! Let's
| not let Big Oil drive us into a "Depression" (Even though they send we
| New Money each month)
|
| No better time to start than RIGHT NOW!


Total wack job! This Tom Stewart is a nut case for sure...

Paladin

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