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Joe March 20th 06 04:13 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Have you ever had any problems with a thermocoupler on your force 10?

My broiler keeps shutting down. Maybe just a stuck electromagnet???
Do you know what voltage they are suppose to make so I can check it out
with a meter?

Thanks

Joe


Scout March 20th 06 07:49 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
Have you ever had any problems with a thermocoupler on your force 10?

My broiler keeps shutting down. Maybe just a stuck electromagnet???
Do you know what voltage they are suppose to make so I can check it out
with a meter?


Joe,
If memory serves me correctly, a thermocouple with no load should read about
25 millivolts. If you have the screw-in adapter that allows you to check
voltage while under a load, it should be between 10 and 15 mV. Many years
ago I worked on thermocouple systems, and did a test we called "listening
for thud" Place an inline voltage access adapter in the circuit and test
thermocouple output voltage under a load. While the pilot is operating
normally, blow out the flame. Place a screw driver or other "listening"
device against the gas valve and the other end against your ear. When the
pilot valve closes, you'll hear a "thud", which is the solenoid losing its
ability to hold back the force of the spring (i.e., the pilot gas valve
closes). Thud shouldn't happen above 15-17 millivolts. If it does, and you
have clean and tight electrical connection, replace the valve. If the
voltage is low or below 10 while under a load, replace the thermocouple.
This assumes that the pilot flame is adjusted properly and hitting the tip
(about 1/3 of) the thermocouple.

If you don't have the adapter, but you do have a good millivolt meter, then
see what the voltage output is with the electrical end of the thermocouple
disconnected. It's not as conclusive as testing under a load, but it will
probably tell you what you need to know.

If you don't have a good meter, thermocouples are fairly inexpensive and it
won't hurt to replace it as your test.

Scout



Seahag March 20th 06 03:39 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 

"Joe" wrote:
Have you ever had any problems with a thermocoupler on
your force 10?

My broiler keeps shutting down. Maybe just a stuck
electromagnet???
Do you know what voltage they are suppose to make so I can
check it out
with a meter?


Wow, in 16 years I've never had one fail...knock wood! The
manual sez 1.5 millivolt. Before you tear it out make sure
your pilot flame is strong enough to warm the tc. I've had
crud from poor propane (or the jet needs a poke) block the
flame from time to time.

I just had a chunk of the broiler ceramic fall off, but it
still works fine!

Seahag



Joe March 20th 06 03:48 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Thanks...1.5 millivolts is a big difference from 25 mv's.

Guess I'm going to have to get me a manual.

Joe


Thom Stewart March 20th 06 07:07 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Scout,

Joe is talking about a Force 10 broiler. I don't think there is a gas
valve in the system?? Not sure but I think it is an all Electric.

Joe; If it is all all electric, you should be able to jump the main
switch and the elements should glow. If they do, don't leave the jumper
connected or the power plugged in, It seems like there is an open in
your heating system. ( By the way;---if your system is all electric, you
probably don't have a thermocouple but a Bi-metalic Strip as a switch)
It still can be jumped. If so, it can probably be cleaned up. If it is a
Gas System, Scout has you on the right track. GOOD LUCK!

Thom'sPage


Seahag March 20th 06 07:43 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 

"Joe" wrote:
Thanks...1.5 millivolts is a big difference from 25 mv's.

Guess I'm going to have to get me a manual.


I got it from my manual:^)

Seahag



Scotty March 20th 06 10:38 PM

Ahoy Thom
 
Your URL addresses aren't showing n your posts.

Scotty


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Scout,

Joe is talking about a Force 10 broiler. I don't think

there is a gas
valve in the system?? Not sure but I think it is an all

Electric.

Joe; If it is all all electric, you should be able to jump

the main
switch and the elements should glow. If they do, don't

leave the jumper
connected or the power plugged in, It seems like there is

an open in
your heating system. ( By the way;---if your system is all

electric, you
probably don't have a thermocouple but a Bi-metalic Strip

as a switch)
It still can be jumped. If so, it can probably be cleaned

up. If it is a
Gas System, Scout has you on the right track. GOOD LUCK!

Thom'sPage




Joe March 20th 06 11:07 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Hey Thom,

It's a gas stove. I'm going to pull loose the tc from the valve and
meter it soon. It's a cool system when working properly, if the flame
is blown out then the gas is shut off. Same thing....... if a kid just
turns the knobs no gas. Safe boating is no accident!

Joe


Joe March 20th 06 11:17 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
I'm going to pull it loose and meter it. Thanks.

The stove has no pilots, electronic spark ignition. You push in the
valve, holding the electro magnet open, when the tc heats up it holds
the magnet and you can let the valve out and adjust the flame. It may
just be crud in the system, bad connectors ect.

Yeah... I bet they do not cost that much, just a pain in the ass to
replace (I think).
I do not have a manual yet, Force 10 just said they were going to
e-mail me one for free :0)

Joe


Scout March 21st 06 11:01 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
"Seahag" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote:
Thanks...1.5 millivolts is a big difference from 25 mv's.

Guess I'm going to have to get me a manual.


I got it from my manual:^)


Haggy,
r u sure that decimal is there? Not 15?
1.5 millivolts sure isn't much.
Scout



Scout March 22nd 06 12:03 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
"Seahag" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote:
Thanks...1.5 millivolts is a big difference from 25 mv's.

Guess I'm going to have to get me a manual.


I got it from my manual:^)


Hagy,
I did a bit of research and got this reply from Force 10
*****************************************
Yes there was a misprint in the Old Manual that stated 1.5mV. The actual
voltage is 20mV.
Regards,
Brad Clark
Force 10 Marine Co.
tel: 604/522.0233
fax: 604/522.9608
email:
******************************************
Scout



Thom Stewart March 22nd 06 01:10 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Scout;

A type "J" iron/constantan TC in a Pilot Flame will operate at about
0.5mV to 0.9mv/ 0 degrees to 800 DegreeC

It's been a lot of years since I've dialed a manual Potentiometer ( not
sure I even have the right spelling--anymore) but the book of outputs
was in very low mV. I'm not even going to mention Cold Junction
Temperature. It isn't nessary in this case.

Damn; I am getting old. Took me over a day to remember

Thom'sPage


Joe March 22nd 06 01:19 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Thats funny Scout, Force 10 just e-mailed me a manual and here is what
it says in the trouble shooting section.

When this point is heated by the burner flame, a small amount of
electricity (1.5 millivolt) is generated. This electric current flows
to the other end of the thermocouple that is tightened into the gas
valve. Here it activates an electromagnet that keeps the valve open.

Should the burner accidentally be extinguished, electricity will no
longer be generated, and the valve will be snapped back to the closed
position by a stainless steel spring.

This is normally an isolated problem, as all thermocouples and ranges
are tested at the factory. If necessary, however, remove the
thermocouple following instructions 1 through 14 for replacing the
thermocouple. Lightly sand the end that has been removed from the valve
with very fine sandpaper. Replace in the valve and test. If this does
not work the thermocouple must have failed and will have to be
replaced.

You can also test the thermocouple by removing the end from the valve.
Heat up the other end with a torch or another burner on your stove. By
using a good quality voltmeter, put one lead on the outside of the
thermocouple and the other one on the far cold end. If the thermocouple
is okay, it will show 1.5 to 2.5 millivolts on your meter.

The electromagnet (solenoid) inside the valve may have failed and will
have to be replaced.

Joe


Thom Stewart March 22nd 06 01:30 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Joe,

If you has a Ohm meter, that is all you need to chk, If you have a
connection it should work. If you have an open --- No good. Replace it.
Check the Junction Connections. Heat has a tendency to work them loose.

Thom'sPage


Seahag March 22nd 06 02:50 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Yeah, I'm sure.

S

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Seahag" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote:
Thanks...1.5 millivolts is a big difference from 25
mv's.

Guess I'm going to have to get me a manual.


I got it from my manual:^)


Haggy,
r u sure that decimal is there? Not 15?
1.5 millivolts sure isn't much.
Scout





Seahag March 22nd 06 02:52 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Those *******s!

Seahag

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Seahag" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote:
Thanks...1.5 millivolts is a big difference from 25
mv's.

Guess I'm going to have to get me a manual.


I got it from my manual:^)


Hagy,
I did a bit of research and got this reply from Force 10
*****************************************
Yes there was a misprint in the Old Manual that stated
1.5mV. The actual voltage is 20mV.
Regards,
Brad Clark
Force 10 Marine Co.
tel: 604/522.0233
fax: 604/522.9608
email:
******************************************
Scout





Seahag March 22nd 06 02:54 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Le's's kick Scout's ass...

S

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thats funny Scout, Force 10 just e-mailed me a manual and
here is what
it says in the trouble shooting section.

When this point is heated by the burner flame, a small
amount of
electricity (1.5 millivolt) is generated. This electric
current flows
to the other end of the thermocouple that is tightened
into the gas
valve. Here it activates an electromagnet that keeps the
valve open.

Should the burner accidentally be extinguished,
electricity will no
longer be generated, and the valve will be snapped back to
the closed
position by a stainless steel spring.

This is normally an isolated problem, as all thermocouples
and ranges
are tested at the factory. If necessary, however, remove
the
thermocouple following instructions 1 through 14 for
replacing the
thermocouple. Lightly sand the end that has been removed
from the valve
with very fine sandpaper. Replace in the valve and test.
If this does
not work the thermocouple must have failed and will have
to be
replaced.

You can also test the thermocouple by removing the end
from the valve.
Heat up the other end with a torch or another burner on
your stove. By
using a good quality voltmeter, put one lead on the
outside of the
thermocouple and the other one on the far cold end. If the
thermocouple
is okay, it will show 1.5 to 2.5 millivolts on your meter.

The electromagnet (solenoid) inside the valve may have
failed and will
have to be replaced.

Joe




Scout March 22nd 06 09:10 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Hagy,
I'm sorry to say I've spent many more years fixing gas appliances than I
have sailing. I wish it were the other way 'round. Knowing a few things
about thermocouples is a very small comfort. : )
Scout

"Seahag" wrote in message
...
Those *******s!


Hagy,
I did a bit of research and got this reply from Force 10
*****************************************
Yes there was a misprint in the Old Manual that stated 1.5mV. The actual
voltage is 20mV.
Regards,
Brad Clark
Force 10 Marine Co.
tel: 604/522.0233
fax: 604/522.9608
email:
******************************************
Scout







Scout March 22nd 06 09:22 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
You know how it is Joe.
The technical writers aren't necessarily technicians and just didn't know.
But I've done the routine so many times that the misplaced decimal seemed to
jump out at me. Maybe no one at Force 10 noticed the misprint before, or
maybe they just figured the hell with it, it costs to much to republish the
manaul. We've just made them realize that people read and discuss.
I've gotten a lot of good information here on ASA, it's nice to be able to
give back something, even if it's just about fixing a grill.
I have to commend Brad Clark from Force 10; he got back to me within an
hour!
Scout
Brad Clark
Force 10 Marine Co.
tel: 604/522.0233
fax: 604/522.9608
email:


"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thats funny Scout, Force 10 just e-mailed me a manual and here is what
it says in the trouble shooting section.

When this point is heated by the burner flame, a small amount of
electricity (1.5 millivolt) is generated. This electric current flows
to the other end of the thermocouple that is tightened into the gas
valve. Here it activates an electromagnet that keeps the valve open.

Should the burner accidentally be extinguished, electricity will no
longer be generated, and the valve will be snapped back to the closed
position by a stainless steel spring.

This is normally an isolated problem, as all thermocouples and ranges
are tested at the factory. If necessary, however, remove the
thermocouple following instructions 1 through 14 for replacing the
thermocouple. Lightly sand the end that has been removed from the valve
with very fine sandpaper. Replace in the valve and test. If this does
not work the thermocouple must have failed and will have to be
replaced.

You can also test the thermocouple by removing the end from the valve.
Heat up the other end with a torch or another burner on your stove. By
using a good quality voltmeter, put one lead on the outside of the
thermocouple and the other one on the far cold end. If the thermocouple
is okay, it will show 1.5 to 2.5 millivolts on your meter.

The electromagnet (solenoid) inside the valve may have failed and will
have to be replaced.

Joe




Scout March 22nd 06 09:53 AM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to pull it loose and meter it. Thanks.

The stove has no pilots, electronic spark ignition. You push in the
valve, holding the electro magnet open, when the tc heats up it holds
the magnet and you can let the valve out and adjust the flame. It may
just be crud in the system, bad connectors ect.

Yeah... I bet they do not cost that much, just a pain in the ass to
replace (I think).
I do not have a manual yet, Force 10 just said they were going to
e-mail me one for free :0)


Joe,
No pilot, I understand. FWIF, the test I described earlier is still valid
and is the method gas appliance technicians are taught to follow.

For a smaller system like your grill, the main gas valve is energized by the
thermocouple, and in the event of loss of flame, the gas valve would
(eventually) close. Thermocouples provide enough power to *hold* a magnetic
valve open, but not enough to initially *pull* it open, hence, you have push
and hold the button until the TC warms up.

Any technician worth his or her salt would also do a safety check (the thud
test). You can do this another way that is easier than the method I
described in an earlier post, provided you have proper ventilation. To check
safety, fire up the grill as you normally do. After it's burning and the TC
is working, close the manual gas valve (at the tank if need be). Make sure
the fire goes out. Turn the gas valve back on and you should hear gas
flowing at the grill because the thermocouple is still hot. The thermocouple
will cool down and you will hear the "thud" and the hissing of the gas will
stop. Then you know your safety is working. Again, do this in an open space.

I'd still do the mV test and if the thermocouple is good, keep the one they
send as a spare. Hagy was right in saying they don't often go bad, but it
does happen. Good luck with it.
Scout



Joe March 22nd 06 01:46 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Now you tell me.

All I had was a stubby screwdriver for the thud test and burned off one
side of my beard before I heard a thud. ;0)

Joe


Martin Baxter March 22nd 06 03:50 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Scout wrote:

You know how it is Joe.
The technical writers aren't necessarily technicians and just didn't know.
But I've done the routine so many times that the misplaced decimal seemed to
jump out at me. Maybe no one at Force 10 noticed the misprint before, or
maybe they just figured the hell with it, it costs to much to republish the
manaul. We've just made them realize that people read and discuss.
I've gotten a lot of good information here on ASA, it's nice to be able to
give back something, even if it's just about fixing a grill.


It may not be a misprint, at room temp the output from a type J
thermocouple (Fe-Constantan) will be around 1.5 mV, at 300C you get
20mV. (I just looked it up in my Omega Thermocouple Reference.)

Cheers
Marty

Scout March 22nd 06 04:46 PM

Hey Seahag...little help in the galley please
 
Marty,
You don't have to rely on my experience. I contacted Force 10 and they
say it's a misprint.
Scout



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