"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Well, it's pretty clear that you don't believe that global warming is
happening and that we can do something about it.

I know you directed this to Lloyd, but I hope you'll accept my answer, too.

I believe that global warming *is* happening, and I do believe that the net
effects of human inhabitation are at least part of the cause. The best
prediction by most scientists is that the mean temp of the Earth will rise
by less than 1 degree F by the year 2100. What no one knows is whether one
degree will be signficant enough to cause the sort of potentially
catastrophic effects that may imperil our existence. My point is--we know
almost nothing about the potential effects of global warming. How are we
supposed to know how to curb the process? Literally every attempt by man to
control major global climatic effects has been a dismal failure. For
example, some recommend efforts to reduce the level of CO2 in the
atmosphere, but we *do* know that CO2 is necessary for plant life, and that
reducing it may result in a significant reduction of global foliage, causing
a rapid increase in temperature. Conundrum.

So, good for you. Perhaps you should post a few dozen more links... like
I'm going to take the time out of my busy schedule! Bwahahahahaaaaa

Ah, so you aren't worried about global warming. Okay.

Not to worry--we'll all be long gone anyway when the next ice age hits in
about 2000 years.

Max

You're a lot more than all ears. But, being a gentleman I won't say what
else is the larger contribution.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Lloyd Bonafide" wrote in message
...
I never said whether I believe global warming exists or not, furthermore
whether I believe it or not ,means nothing. I can show data from the ERB
and GOES satellites that clearly show solar irradiance has increased in
step with increases in measured surface temperatures. Mars has shown the
same correlated temperature rise. If you those facts are causal rather
than just correlated then what exactly do you propose to do to negate the
effects of the sun's increased output? I'm all ears for your suggestions.
Should we stop driving cars, using hairspray and plant more trees?


Lloyd





"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Well, it's pretty clear that you don't believe that global warming is
happening and that we can do something about it. So, good for you.
Perhaps you should post a few dozen more links... like I'm going to take
the time out of my busy schedule! Bwahahahahaaaaa

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Lloyd Bonafide" wrote in message
...
What about this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11...ts_thickening/

In the northern hemisphere where the "warming" is supposed to be the
most.

But then:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0130074839.htm

And growing glaciers:

http://www.awra.org/state/alaska/nre.../aknr0301.html

Now I'm really, really worried:

http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Glaciers.htm

Now sea ice is declining:

http://nsidc.org/news/press/20050928...scontinue.html

When ice melts in a full glass does the glass overflow?

Melting sea ice actually causes a drop in sea level.

Lloyd


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Yes, thanks for point that out.

"In the past 10 years, the warmer temperatures over the eastern part of
the Antarctic ice sheet have allowed that air to gather more moisture.
Snow has been falling and causing part of the ice sheet to thicken
slowing the rise of the sea level by a tiny amount."

Operative word, "tiny."

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Lloyd Bonafide" wrote in message
...
Yeah, some evidence:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=776766

Lloyd



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
And plenty of evidence of major melting going on.. which is too bad.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
It seems an undersea volcano caused the Larsen B
ice shelf to collaspe. I didn't see this in the news.
*****************************************

Evidence of the volcano came as an unintended bonus
from a research plan to investigate why a massive ice
sheet, known as the Larsen B, collapsed and broke up
several years ago.

Scientists hope to understand whether such a collapse is
unique or part of a cycle that extends over hundreds of
thousands of years.

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.js...0385&from=news

Actually, it's a lot worse than that. I don't have the time or inclination
to cite the references, but it's much worse than one degree in 100 years.

We know lots about the effects and we're learning more by the day. Every
credible scientist can see that there's a huge problem coming, and we need
to get to it now.

It's easy to claim that things are hopeless or "unclear" and do nothing and
try nothing.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Well, it's pretty clear that you don't believe that global warming is
happening and that we can do something about it.

I know you directed this to Lloyd, but I hope you'll accept my answer,
too.

I believe that global warming *is* happening, and I do believe that the
net effects of human inhabitation are at least part of the cause. The
best prediction by most scientists is that the mean temp of the Earth will
rise by less than 1 degree F by the year 2100. What no one knows is
whether one degree will be signficant enough to cause the sort of
potentially catastrophic effects that may imperil our existence. My point
is--we know almost nothing about the potential effects of global warming.
How are we supposed to know how to curb the process? Literally every
attempt by man to control major global climatic effects has been a dismal
failure. For example, some recommend efforts to reduce the level of CO2
in the atmosphere, but we *do* know that CO2 is necessary for plant life,
and that reducing it may result in a significant reduction of global
foliage, causing a rapid increase in temperature. Conundrum.

So, good for you. Perhaps you should post a few dozen more links... like
I'm going to take the time out of my busy schedule! Bwahahahahaaaaa

Ah, so you aren't worried about global warming. Okay.

Not to worry--we'll all be long gone anyway when the next ice age hits in
about 2000 years.

Max

Here's a good reference for a potential cause of cloud cover:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2333133.stm


This articles references the sun as a source of ion causing radiation.

The decrease in the earth's magnetic field also allows the creation of more
ions, hence more clouds and more insular effect of the clouds.

The other thing to consider is the core of the earth. The core's rotation is
slowing and may reverse or change direction. The heat conduction to the
outer crust will increase with slowing core velocity.

I feel guilty about being a human and humans are the cause of global warming
and total planetary destruction. I want to do something so I can feel better
about this whole tragedy (the tragedy being the external world changing
before my eyes). I will make myself feel better by forcing my neighbor to
drive a car (only on odd numbered days) powered by his own fecal matter.
There, I feel better now. Symbolic gestures are always better than real
action and understanding in solving the world's problems. Symbolism gives me
immediate gratification.


Lloyd


"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Lloyd Bonafide" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
And plenty of evidence of major melting going on.. which is too bad.

Yeah, some evidence:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=776766

Lloyd

There is a positive mass balance in the West ice sheet as well. I
provided a reference in my other post to Jon.

Considering that Antarctica comprises 90% of the world's ice, that's
significant.

Max

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
You're a lot more than all ears. But, being a gentleman I won't say what
else is the larger contribution.

A real gentleman would have carried on the conversation and answered the
question rather than allude to a personal attack. Any discussion with you
(by anyone) winds up with you flinging personal attacks. Is that the
hallmark of a gentlemen?

I have not attacked you in any way. I've presented factual scientific
evidence, for both sides no less, and somehow you feel threatened.

Life is tough enough already, why make it tougher?


Lloyd

Jon,

Relax and enjoy the new weather, Buy 15 ft above water level and wait
for ocean front property.

I doubt humans have caused global warming myself and if they have
Mother earth will shake it off and start over. The old saying goes we
do not own the earth, the earth owns us.

If you need to worry about something start thinking bird flu Pandemic
or comets/astroids hitting us. Atomic terrorist, dirty bombs,
ect..ect............

Joe

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Please show me where I attacked you personally? I don't even know you, but
I can guess.

You have not presented much in the way of "evidence."

Yes I have.

Global warming is happening.

What is the time span of this warming? How long will it continue? What will
cause it to stop.

Human beings are responsible for much of it.

The earth has been much warmer in the past. In fact, the temperature
fluctuates with known periodic cycles. The one problem is that there were no
humans around during previous temperature increases. What caused the earth
to warm up then?

Here's a possibility: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/milankovitch.html

How do you know the earth is warming?

How do you know humans are the cause of it?


The ice sheets of the world are melting a lot faster than we originally
thought. Those are the facts. It's time to do something about it.

You were just presented with data showing the Greenland icecap and Antartic
ice caps are getting thicker. Those are facts too.

So what should we do about it?

How do you know the correction we do won't launch us into an ice age?





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Lloyd Bonafide" wrote in message
. ..

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
You're a lot more than all ears. But, being a gentleman I won't say what
else is the larger contribution.

A real gentleman would have carried on the conversation and answered the
question rather than allude to a personal attack. Any discussion with you
(by anyone) winds up with you flinging personal attacks. Is that the
hallmark of a gentlemen?

I have not attacked you in any way. I've presented factual scientific
evidence, for both sides no less, and somehow you feel threatened.

Life is tough enough already, why make it tougher?


Lloyd

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Actually, it's a lot worse than that. I don't have the time or inclination
to cite the references, but it's much worse than one degree in 100 years.

If you make the claim, cite the references, or shut up. I can cite the
references for scientists predicting roughly a one degree change. I can
also cite references for an equal number of scientists claiming somewhat
less than that.

We know lots about the effects and we're learning more by the day.

Really? What's your reference for this: the movie The Day After Tomorrow?

Every credible scientist can see that there's a huge problem coming, and we
need to get to it now.

So you're saying all the scientists who are claiming otherwise aren't
credible? I'm willing to listen. Provide your references, or shut up.

It's easy to claim that things are hopeless or "unclear" and do nothing
and try nothing.

It's also equally easy to propose meaningless solutions that might actually
make things worse, which is precisely what attempts at controlling climate
have done heretofore.

Max

"Lloyd Bonafide" wrote in message
. ..

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
You're a lot more than all ears. But, being a gentleman I won't say what
else is the larger contribution.

A real gentleman would have carried on the conversation and answered the
question rather than allude to a personal attack. Any discussion with you
(by anyone) winds up with you flinging personal attacks. Is that the
hallmark of a gentlemen?

It's the hallmark of the environmental wackos who have nothing but their
dogma as a counterpose to verifiable scientific research that refutes, or
fails to support, their claims.

I have not attacked you in any way. I've presented factual scientific
evidence, for both sides no less, and somehow you feel threatened.

Life is tough enough already, why make it tougher?

When presented with scientific fact, they respond pretty much as Jon has.
Ad hominem attacks are rampant in any discussion of global warming, thanks
to a lack of credible evidence to support their claims.


Max

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Please show me where I attacked you personally? I don't even know you, but
I can guess.

You're a lot more than all ears. But, being a gentleman I won't say what
else is the larger contribution.

That is your paragraph. And that's a personal attack.


You have not presented much in the way of "evidence."

Oh. Lloyd provided numerous references. I provided several. So far you
haven't provided any. Your point?

Global warming is happening. Human beings are responsible for much of it.
The ice sheets of the world are melting a lot faster than we originally
thought. Those are the facts. It's time to do something about it.

When presented with scientific facts that fail to support anything you've
claimed in the foregoing paragraph, you deem the scientists who generated
those reports to lack credibility, you attack the poster personally, and you
provide no evidence to the contrary beyond your own regurgitation of the
pop-science dogma surrounding global warming. Now give me one reason why
anyone would believe you over Lloyd?


Max