In article , Capt. JG
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
Jon can't connect the dots.

Which dots are those? The Republican lackey dots?

I disagree with both of you. You can be both environmentally sensitive
(ie reduce pollution) and be competitive in energy. But you have to
take some risks. I think nuclear power stations are the only feasible
solution, given current technology.

I think you're confused. I'm all for coal.

Try this. It's better than nuclear (pronounce it nucular like your hero).

I don't have a hero, Jon. Got no idea who you're referring to.

http://governor.mt.gov/hottopics/faqsynthetic.asp

Shrug. We're one of the biggest coal exporters. We make money whatever
happens. The idea is to reduce greenhouse gases and other pollutants -
sulphur, nitrous oxides etc. Sure you can create synthetic oil,
whatever, from coal. Also from shale oil, brown coal etc etc. Been
done, tech is well known. The Germans used it way back.

It just costs a ****load of bux per gallon of oil produced. You also
have to trash (often) productive land to get to the stuff, and dispose
of a mountain of waste afterwards. All while competing with someone
else. And then when you burn it, you still produce CO, CO2 etc etc.

I can't quickly find a ref to how much coal California mines, or when
the last mine was started. Bet it's an insignificant tonnage and no new
mine has been opened in decades, tho.

It's a viable alternative, IMO, only when the cost of production of oil
rises a lot. Not, note well, the sale price, but the production cost. I
say this because if someone starts tooling up for a synthetic fuel
price, all the oil guys need to do is drop the price sufficiently to
bankrupt the syn plant, then jack the price up again. Sure, there are
ways round this, but basically you need a guaranteed purchase price.

Converting LNG might well be cheaper.

I regard Japan as competitive in energy because they use it more
efficiently in the production of manufactured goods, which they can
sell abroad to willing customers, and therefore pay for their energy
imports.

Does that include them throwing away all their nearly new crap when they're
done with it?

Why not? They just sell the nearly new crap to other people, Jon. As I
well know, since I worked in the Solomon Is. Nearly every car there was
imported from Japan. Saved buying new ones.

BTW, I agree with Bob Cranz. The Russian heavy lift chemical rockets
are a lot cheaper and on a tonnes lifted to orbit basis a more cost
effective solution than the Space Shuttle. Sure there are failures but
as long as it's cheaper to pay for the failures than the shuttle, so
what? Gotta look at the end result.

The shuttle should be scuttled.

Yeah. About 15 years ago when a Mk 2 orbital delivery platform was
developed. Didn't happen. I wish it had, I still wish it would. But
hey, someone's gonna do it. Might not be the USA, definitely won't be
us - we don't have the size economy to fund it - but someone.


What Jon doesn't seem to get is, I'll use 'best of breed' regardless of
origin. I use an Apple Mac laptop. I use Sun Microsystems servers. If
forced I use Microsoft s/ware but low end servers run Linux. Those
products are competitive in quality & price.

Now that Peter has totally lost this argument, he's referring to me in the
third person. :-)

Hey, you did a dummy spit and said you weren't responding any more. I
took you at your word. Sorry about that. Next time I'll remember that
you have to have the *last* word.

The only person who thinks I've lost the argument, BTW, is you.


I have a lot of old US made machinery. It's still better than some of
the brand new Chinese made stuff. Today I bought a new power drill. I
bought an AEG Fixtec drill. These things are great, got no idea where
it's made but it isn't China.

Wow, you bought a power drill. Well, ok then.

Heh. I spend somewhere in excess of $500K USD per annum on equipment
for work. Some years *lots* more. I'll bet that's in excess of 10X what
you spend on mechanical & electrical equipment pa.

Thinking about it, you guys are still pretty competitive in
oceanography stuff. Pretty niche area. I probably spend about 50% of my
money on US stuff, the rest European. However we're working with the
Chinese on building automated weather stations.

Jon finds it easier to indulge in 'shoot the messenger' than address
the message. It's so much more comfortable that way. Saves thinking.

Still waiting for you to prove your point (not the one on the top of your
head).

Yawn. Ad-hom. Boring.

The USA is *becoming* a **** poor place. I don't like this personally
and I don't like it strategically but there's nothing I can do except
point out the unpalatable facts. You guys simply *cannot* keep up your
current rate of consumption of imports while paying for them with money
borrowed from o/s unless the lenders keep seeing value for money.
You've got the technology, the infrastructure, the skill base and the
depth of capital to do wonderful things, and you're not doing anything
except indulge in wars over pride or oil. It's frustrating and
annoying.

Yes, except that it's still the best damn country in the world. Good luck.

Well, second best.......

Meanwhile, California's electricity demand rises, and their generation
capacity doesn't.

Talk to Arnold. I didn't vote for him.

Irrelevant. The power problem far preceded Arnold.

PDW