Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from the
boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they tend to
interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the more
complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and down, but
that yet another level of complexity.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they tend
to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the more
complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and down, but
that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

This topic deserves it's own thread.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they
tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the
more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and
down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
This topic deserves it's own thread.

Well, I'll start. I have a generic flaking system called a "Lazy Mate", came
with the boat. What a pos! It does keep the sail on the boom, however.

John Cairns


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to
put holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each
situation right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the
sail from the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much
because they tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They
do make the more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail
goes up and down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put
holes in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

You need to get a Dutchman. If you want one let me
know I can probably get you a good price for one.

"John Cairns" wrote

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
This topic deserves it's own thread.

Well, I'll start. I have a generic flaking system called a "Lazy Mate",
came with the boat. What a pos! It does keep the sail on the boom,
however.

John Cairns


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to
put holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each
situation right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the
sail from the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much
because they tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They
do make the more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail
goes up and down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put
holes in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Bart & John;

I still prefer "LAZY JACKS" with full batten main to the"DUTCHMAN."
Mostly for the ability to remove the "Jack" completely from the Main
Sail. With the "Jacks" drawn to the Goose neck I have a completely clear
sail. I feel that a free sail has better ability for sail shape control;
especially Twist.

With the "Jacks" in place, I can get the same control in dropping the
sail and also allows the use of a standard Sail Cover. With a "Free
Footed Main" I have the ability to completely wrap the sail in a
standard sail cover; Free from contact with the Boom.

With the "Jacks" drawn; to free the Leech, the sail is free to Hoist
without problems



http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/Pneuma

Good point about the sail cover, the Dutchman does
require a custom sailcover with zippers for the sides
at the monofilament. However, they go on nearly as
fast as a normal sail cover and given that the sail needs
at most a few tugs to pull straight, the amount of work
a Dutchman saves more than offsets the time needed to
zip two zippers.

There is no problem with twisting the sail using a
Dutchman system. I do it all the time. There is no
negative impact on sail shaping--this is one reason why
I like it.

"Thom Stewart" wrote

I still prefer "LAZY JACKS" with full batten main to the"DUTCHMAN."
Mostly for the ability to remove the "Jack" completely from the Main
Sail. With the "Jacks" drawn to the Goose neck I have a completely clear
sail. I feel that a free sail has better ability for sail shape control;
especially Twist.

With the "Jacks" in place, I can get the same control in dropping the
sail and also allows the use of a standard Sail Cover. With a "Free
Footed Main" I have the ability to completely wrap the sail in a
standard sail cover; Free from contact with the Boom.

With the "Jacks" drawn; to free the Leech, the sail is free to Hoist
without problems

The Duthman is a partial answer at best. They are impractical for full
batten full roached mains as they need a topping lift to operate.
Sailors with full roached mains want to get RID of topping lifts,
hence the advent of solid vangs. Kind of stupid to sail with a topping
lift only for the purpose of flaking your main. A well designed
lazyjack system is the answer for all applications.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 20:14:01 -0500, "Bart Senior" .@. wrote:

This topic deserves it's own thread.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they
tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the
more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and
down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Except that with full battens lasy jacks foul
unless you get them out of the way before
hoisting. That is a headache IMHO.

How many boat had full roach mains? Not
all that many.

"Marc" wrote
The Duthman is a partial answer at best. They are impractical for full
batten full roached mains as they need a topping lift to operate.
Sailors with full roached mains want to get RID of topping lifts,
hence the advent of solid vangs. Kind of stupid to sail with a topping
lift only for the purpose of flaking your main. A well designed
lazyjack system is the answer for all applications.

The only LJ system I know that doesn't foul fully roached mains adjusts as
the sail is raised and lowered. It adds complexity to the rigging of the LJ
system. I haven't tried it, but it sounds interesting. I don't know if there
would be any cost savings.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Except that with full battens lasy jacks foul
unless you get them out of the way before
hoisting. That is a headache IMHO.

How many boat had full roach mains? Not
all that many.

"Marc" wrote
The Duthman is a partial answer at best. They are impractical for full
batten full roached mains as they need a topping lift to operate.
Sailors with full roached mains want to get RID of topping lifts,
hence the advent of solid vangs. Kind of stupid to sail with a topping
lift only for the purpose of flaking your main. A well designed
lazyjack system is the answer for all applications.