I'm ba aaaack!
 

Some 7,500 ships with foreign flags make 51,000 calls on
U.S. ports each year. They carry the bulk of the
approximately 890 million tons of goods that come into the
country, including 7.8 million containers

7.8 MILLION !!!

http://cfrterrorism.org/security/ports_print.html

Scotty





OzOne wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:14:08 GMT, "Maxprop"

scribbled thusly:



Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous
scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security
is a sham.

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment: So
we've established
that examining incoming containers is not feasible. For
that reason, is it
reasonable to simply ignore all other aspects of homeland
security that ARE
feasible, such as clearing individuals for entry?

Max

T's feasible....just look at the number of people employed
to check
baggage, people and crdentials at every airport in the US.
Thing is, putting that same number of people into checking
containers
has little political advantage because Joe Public won't
see the work
being done and be able to wrap himself in that warm fuzzy
security
blanket.

Ever thought that the level of personal inspection has
lulled most
passengers into a very false sense of security so they are
now not on
the lookout for stuff happening onboard?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting
you.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

Awwww quit your whining...ya sound like a Yank.

Scotty


"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern
border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year,
and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place,
but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every
place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you
simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth
visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I
don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted,
and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's
inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with
those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber
recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no
opposition. So in
my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and
Ozzy to enjoy your
time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an
inconvenience... we
just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security
documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US
Customs. If I view
their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can
you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision
offend your
national pride? What makes you think I am short changing
myself because I
refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I wouldn't
travel to any country
requiring that level of infringement on my privacy and
freedoms.

CM

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:18:20 -0500, "Scotty"

scribbled thusly:

Some 7,500 ships with foreign flags make 51,000 calls on
U.S. ports each year. They carry the bulk of the
approximately 890 million tons of goods that come into
the
country, including 7.8 million containers

7.8 MILLION !!!

http://cfrterrorism.org/security/ports_print.html

Scotty

Yep, and they all get unloaded and reloaded any number of
times
without checks....scary eh.....

No. I sleep just fine...you?

I'm ba aaaack!
 

On Sat. Feb. 18, 2006, 3:41pm (PST+19)
OzOne posted:

".......Flew in from that sewer called Los Angeles......"


and on Thu, Feb 23, 2006, 10:17am (PST + 19)
OzOne posted:

"..Unfortunately, you also have sewers like Los Angeles........"


Mr. Oz, I am respectfully asking if you would kindly explain what causes
you to describe Los Angeles in such terms? Granted, as every mega
metropolis, Los Angeles has it's ugly areas, and granted, Los Angeles
is not like our European capitals with gracious architecture and tree
lined boulevards. However..........

Just what areas of Los Angeles were you in? And perhaps you were
limited in time and did not have the time to see areas that would not
cause you to compare them to effluvia?

I really would appreciate your answer, as your reaction is not the
usual one that I hear from other visitors to Los Angeles.

Thanks.........a.a.t.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3 cities
a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no longer
fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the degrading and
officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers. With my
temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one of those
officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So
in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy
your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If I
view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to provide....
how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision offend
your national pride? What makes you think I am short changing myself
because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I wouldn't travel to
any country requiring that level of infringement on my privacy and
freedoms.

CM

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote
Homeland security is just smoke, mirrors and inconvenience.

Not in a land where 3 generations have been taught that facts and truth don't
matter - it's what you FEEL that counts. If 5% makes them feel safe it's every
bit as good as 100%. If there's a terrorist attack blame it on Clinton's BJ.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Maxprop" wrote
What line? HS doesn't claim to be smoke and mirrors. That's your take, not
theirs. And the evidence supports HS, not you. The US has been free of
terrorist attack since HS instituted its programs. HS may have absolutely
nothing to do with that, but you can't prove it doesn't. So your argument
is invalid.


Know why elephants are Grey? It's so they can hide in trees. You doubt? Ever
seen an elephant in a tree? Good camouflage eh?

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote
Only because he was drunk.

That's not a prerequisite for shooting someone?

It is around here! Saturday nights we sit on the porch, get drunk, then shoot
at anything that moves. That's southern homeland security. Works as good as
anything else. We haven't had any terrorist attacks since we began doing that
right after the war of yankee aggression.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote
.... and your teeth are not pulled in the name of security.

Bite your tongue before you give them ideas like that.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Maxprop" wrote
Let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment: So we've established
that examining incoming containers is not feasible. For that reason, is it
reasonable to simply ignore all other aspects of homeland security that ARE
feasible, such as clearing individuals for entry?

Let's continue the game. If I were a terrorist, with enough 'connections' to
have a WMD waiting for me in the US how hard would it be for me to spoof HS with
a phoney ID - not just a paper but with a false identity??

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"a.a.t." wrote
Mr. Oz, I am respectfully asking if you would kindly explain what causes
you to describe Los Angeles in such terms? Granted, as every mega
metropolis, Los Angeles has it's ugly areas, and granted, Los Angeles
is not like our European capitals with gracious architecture and tree
lined boulevards. However..........

Just what areas of Los Angeles were you in? ...

Yes! I'll bet he never visited beautiful downtown Compton - my home town. g

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Maxprop" wrote
The inspection of containers here is a sore subject. Many are angry because
they are not inspected. My personal belief is that a thorough inspection of
all incoming containers is not feasible or practical. ....

I think that's Ozzy's point. No *thorough* inspections of containers *or people*
is feasible, so why bother with cursory inspections that cannot forestall a
terrorist attack? If one has the resources and connections to aquire a WMD then
one can certainly sneak it past customs inspectors' brief partial inspections
the same as cocaine and illegal aliens get imported every day. Similarly, if
one has the resources and contacts to import drugs or aliens or WMDs, then one
can create a credible identity and get past the cursory but insulting entry
checks. Might as well save the $billions and make everybody welcome.

Besides, there were studies done back in the old war to determine how much the
USA would be hurt by the loss of a few major cities. The answer is "not much".
Look at 9/11. Stock market took a little dip (it was dropping anyway) then
business said ho-hum and back to work.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote
as isolationism becomes a reality.

It'd be bad enough if it ended there. I understand that German citizens are
required to keep their government informed of their whereabouts at all times
much as sex offenders are now required to do in the US. It's just a matter of
time ......

I'm ba aaaack!
 

This is not merely restricted to your country Jl.... I have also toned down
my air travel in Canada. It's just plain ridiculous at times..... they
consider a nail clipper a lethal weapon!! I had to bite my tongue to refrain
from pointing out that I could beat 3/4 of the passengers on the flight into
a coma with my bare hands before I would consider deploying my "lethal nail
clipper"! I bet 4 men with Navy Seals training could take over a plane in
very little time with no weapons at all.

I can understand and respect proactive security measures..... but what they
are implementing is beyond bordering on ridiculous and I believe it is
nothing more than a facade.

The requirements for travel to the USA reeks of information gathering and
infringement of privacy... not to mention a gross trampling of individual
freedoms.

The very name "Homeland Security" resonates pre cold war Russia / Nazi
Germany.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no
longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm
anti American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here
from the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational
pleasure of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no
opposition. So in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and
Ozzy to enjoy your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation
and references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If
I view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal
decision offend your national pride? What makes you think I am short
changing myself because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I
wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on my
privacy and freedoms.

CM

I'm ba aaaack!
 

I lived in LA for years. It's a pit.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"a.a.t." wrote in message
...



On Sat. Feb. 18, 2006, 3:41pm (PST+19)
OzOne posted:

".......Flew in from that sewer called Los Angeles......"


and on Thu, Feb 23, 2006, 10:17am (PST + 19)
OzOne posted:

"..Unfortunately, you also have sewers like Los Angeles........"


Mr. Oz, I am respectfully asking if you would kindly explain what causes
you to describe Los Angeles in such terms? Granted, as every mega
metropolis, Los Angeles has it's ugly areas, and granted, Los Angeles
is not like our European capitals with gracious architecture and tree
lined boulevards. However..........

Just what areas of Los Angeles were you in? And perhaps you were
limited in time and did not have the time to see areas that would not
cause you to compare them to effluvia?

I really would appreciate your answer, as your reaction is not the
usual one that I hear from other visitors to Los Angeles.

Thanks.........a.a.t.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

Amen, to every one of your points. Thank God, I was not born any later.

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:YvGLf.1188$dg.1146@clgrps13...
This is not merely restricted to your country Jl.... I have also toned
down my air travel in Canada. It's just plain ridiculous at times.....
they consider a nail clipper a lethal weapon!! I had to bite my tongue to
refrain from pointing out that I could beat 3/4 of the passengers on the
flight into a coma with my bare hands before I would consider deploying my
"lethal nail clipper"! I bet 4 men with Navy Seals training could take
over a plane in very little time with no weapons at all.

I can understand and respect proactive security measures..... but what
they are implementing is beyond bordering on ridiculous and I believe it
is nothing more than a facade.

The requirements for travel to the USA reeks of information gathering and
infringement of privacy... not to mention a gross trampling of individual
freedoms.

The very name "Homeland Security" resonates pre cold war Russia / Nazi
Germany.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I
no longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal
with them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't.....
and you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim
I'm anti American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here
from the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational
pleasure of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with
no opposition. So in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon
and Ozzy to enjoy your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation
and references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If
I view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal
decision offend your national pride? What makes you think I am short
changing myself because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I
wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on
my privacy and freedoms.

CM

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:14:08 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:



Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security is a sham.

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment: So we've established
that examining incoming containers is not feasible. For that reason, is
it
reasonable to simply ignore all other aspects of homeland security that
ARE
feasible, such as clearing individuals for entry?

Max

T's feasible....just look at the number of people employed to check
baggage, people and crdentials at every airport in the US.
Thing is, putting that same number of people into checking containers
has little political advantage because Joe Public won't see the work
being done and be able to wrap himself in that warm fuzzy security
blanket.


Have you ever looked at a shipping container packed full of, say, boxes with
electronics? There might be literally hundreds or thousands of cardboard
cartons in a single container packed wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling. How
does an inspector check each carton to be sure it contains what the label
specifies? A single carton could contains plastique or the makings of a
dirty bomb. Are you going to open each and every one? Some containers are
packed with loose items, and would be even more difficult to inspect. From
a cost effectivity standpoint, it isn't feasible to inspect the contents of
every container entering this country.


Ever thought that the level of personal inspection has lulled most
passengers into a very false sense of security so they are now not on
the lookout for stuff happening onboard?

I think about it every time I fly. But there is little or nothing the
average passenger can do if he spots something or someone suspicious once
airborne. Getting lulled into a false sense of security has obviously
helped the airlines avoid a plunge into the abyss of financial ruin. Most
of them, anyhow.

If, however, we abandon the personal inspections, what prevents a repeat of
9/11?

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:26:29 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:37:49 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


Nope....
Homeland security is just smoke, mirrors and inconvenience.

Maybe that's all it takes to prevent another attack on the order of
9/11/01.

Bwaaahahhahahhahahhahhahaaaa!
You've swallowed that line?

What line? HS doesn't claim to be smoke and mirrors. That's your take,
not
theirs. And the evidence supports HS, not you. The US has been free of
terrorist attack since HS instituted its programs. HS may have absolutely
nothing to do with that, but you can't prove it doesn't. So your argument
is invalid.

The line that homeland security is the reason for no more
attacks....What was the reason in all the years prior to 911?

You seem to have conveniently ignored the other, failed al Qaeda attempt to
level the WTC some years before 9/11.


You're an ex-cop. How would you deal with terrorism in Australia?

Heh heh, there is none.
Maybe if Little Johnnie Howard keeps Americanising us...we will.

As I expected--you won't answer the question. Criticism without
alternative
suggestions is the mark of a chronic complainer, not a problem solver.
Save
your breath--we have plenty of those here already.

Max


Max, again you miss the point....First step toward stopping terrorism
in Oz would be to throw out a Govt that is leading us further into
current American political thinking....the out for you is the same,
**** off a Govt that is intolerant and interfering and try to smooth
over the huge rifts that have been opened up.

Hell, Iraq after all the interfering is now teetering on the very
brink of civil war...

I can't argue against your points--they have merit--but I still ask: if
your country faces terrorist activity, how would you deal with it? Like it
or not, we are where we are, and our government isn't likely to change its
course. Given that, we have to deal with terrorism effectively, or watch
another 3000 (or more) countrymen die periodically to terrorist attacks on
these shores.

Max

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:26:29 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:
What line? HS doesn't claim to be smoke and mirrors. That's your take,
not
theirs. And the evidence supports HS, not you. The US has been free of
terrorist attack since HS instituted its programs. HS may have absolutely
nothing to do with that, but you can't prove it doesn't. So your argument
is invalid.


My house was always very cold. This winter, I painted the house red, and
closed
all the open windows. Yep... Painting my house red sure made it a lot
warmer!

Unlikely, but since you failed to isolate your variables you, too, have no
evidence that the paint didn't raise the temp in your house as much or more
than closing the windows.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:47:35 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
m...


Ummm, Max, it's not penalizing Mooron at all. It's a big world out
there, lotta interesting places.

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't.
I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its disappointing that
the border constraints are in place, but that won't stop me. Petty
bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world, and unless you
choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with them and go
about
your business.

But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of
late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd find
no
pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So in my own
way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy your time on
ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max


Sensitive little sucker!

Don't be confused, I am and never have been anti American..though I
tended toward that when the American people re elected the guy who has
put the US in a position from which it is unlikely to recover.

I think you're being melodramatic, Ozzy. W has left us with a major
cluster****, and we won't be finding our way clear of it for some
time--possibly years. But time heals everything. WWI and WWII both came to
an end, and so will this fiasco. People tire of conflicts, especially old,
threadbare ones. The day will come when no one has the energy or the will
to continue to fight this war, and then it will disappear. Doomspeakers
said the same thing about Vietnam, but today American soldiers, who fought
there, visit the place and sit down over tea with those they were shooting
at just 25 years earlier.


I am, and have been since Bush was elected, firmly anti US Govt.

Well, you're just a rank novice at it then. There are those of us who've
despised the US government for decades. The line forms at the rear, around
the corner.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:20:51 -0500, "Scotty"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:47:35 GMT, "Maxprop"

scribbled thusly:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in
message
...


Ummm, Max, it's not penalizing Mooron at all. It's a
big world out
there, lotta interesting places.

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border.
Jakarta doesn't.
I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that
the border constraints are in place, but that won't stop
me. Petty
bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you
choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about
your business.

But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's
inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those
of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber
recreational pleasure of
late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no
pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no
opposition. So in my own
way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to
enjoy your time on
ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max


Sensitive little sucker!

Don't be confused, I am and never have been anti
American..though I
tended toward that when the American people re elected the
guy who has
put the US in a position from which it is unlikely to
recover.

I am, and have been since Bush was elected, firmly anti US
Govt.


As are most 'Mericans.

Scotty

Now!

Oh? Do you really think we enjoy paying huge portions of our incomes, only
to have our government squander it wastefully and without restraint? Do you
believe that we appreciate our "representatives" who cave to special
interests while showing no interest in our communal needs? Do you honestly
think we like the fact that our "representatives" set themselves apart,
creating one set of laws to govern the populace, while they apply another,
much relaxed and lenient set of rules for themselves? Do you believe that
we applaud these same "representatives" for voting themselves periodic pay
raises, especially when they are grossly overpaid and perked to death as it
is? Do you think there is probably more than a tiny group of Americans who
actually think "politics as usual" in Washington is a good thing?

If you do believe any of this, I have some prime real estate you might wish
to consider at bargain prices. Yeah, I'll take a check, but I'd prefer a
credit card number . . .

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So
in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy
your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If I
view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to provide....
how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision offend
your national pride? What makes you think I am short changing myself
because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request?


I get fingerprinted every three years in order to obtain a firearms carry
permit. BFD--I have nothing to hide. It makes my fingers black and the
cleanup is a PITA, but hardly worth fretting over. It may be an
infringement on my privacy and personal freedom, but it is what I have to do
to accomplish my goal, so I do it without bitching. To refuse to do so
would mean that I am denied my permit to carry. That would affect me--not
those who have instigated the policies.

And no, you don't offend my national pride, or any such silly, fallacious
conclusion you may concoct, in the least. My point is simply that your
indignation is placing limits on your ability to move about the world. It
has no effect whatever upon me or my countrymen. You're more than welcome
to stand on your principles and avoid the US. We don't care in the
slightest.

I wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on
my privacy and freedoms.

I guess, then, that you'll not be going anywhere a passport is necessary,
eh?

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no
longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.

If you change your mind and go flying into the US again, could you please
let me know where and when? I'd love to watch.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

I believe it's up to 5% now.

Scotty


Now there's security in action.....:-)

How would you inspect every container entering the US?


When you say inspected, do you understand that they don't
actually open them up and check inside? Mostly they run an
x-ray machine around the container. A very slow process as
it's done now.
At least on the East Coast, they set a dozen or so
containers on the ground, in line, then drive the x-ray
machine over them, slowly. A costly , time consuming
process.
I don't know why they don't have a drive thru type machine.

Because it would be logical?

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

You're an ex-cop. How would you deal with terrorism in
Australia?


He'd remove all guns from citizens.

Yup. That would do it. At least until one of those from whom he was
attempting to confiscate a firearm shot him.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:56:12 -0500, "Scotty"
scribbled thusly:


"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

You're an ex-cop. How would you deal with terrorism in
Australia?


He'd remove all guns from citizens.

SV

Too late now....heck, even Cheney shoots his friends.

Quail, lawyers--what's the difference? g

Max

!! I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote ...
Mrs. Peel, clearly. 99 looked and acted like someone's
kid sister. Not
sexy.


My kid sister was sexy.

Pervert!

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:GNtLf.2288$M52.1210@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

They'll never return to Canada, rather to the US to resume their careers
with the NHL. :-p

It's livin' in the USA... what made them Fat & Lazy!

No. Most of us work hard for a living. The NHL, OTOH, is made up of a
congregation of millionaires who are so f***ing spoiled that they fought
with their owners' organization until they got locked out for a year. Of
course we never saw any of them finding alternative work during that year.


Ship'em back to Canada for a spell... we'll Beat the Hockey back into'em!

After the Russians got beat by the US amateur team in 1980, a few of the
team members disappeared off the face of the planet, never to be seen or
heard from again. Is Canada given to similar treatment of slackers?

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:31:13 +0000, Peter Wiley
scribbled thusly:


Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security is a sham.

Couldn't agree more.

The real joke here is, after you pass thru the scanners, you can buy
drinks in glass bottles on the inside. And they're worried about Swiss
Army knives and the like?

Security? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa.

PDW

And on the aircraft, you're given bottles of wine, are served from
bottles, can purchase duty free in bottles, and your teeth are not
pulled in the name of security.

I've flown regularly for the past five years--often in first class--and I
have yet to be given a glass anything on a plane. Even the forks and knives
are plastic.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article t,
Maxprop wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article et,
Maxprop wrote:
Sure, you go thru a scanner....do you need have your details
transmitted to US Custome when you board an aircraft so they can have
a full check done on you by the time you arrive?
Do you get fingerprinted on each arrival in the US?
Do you need to advise Immigration where you'll be spending your time
in the US?

US citizens aren't subjected to those things.

At least not yet.

You might be right. Everything today seems to be carried to extremes for
some reason. Between the media fear mongering and the political
finger-pointing, this home security thing will continue to expand to
levels
we can't even imagine right now.


Just remember, if it saves 1 life, it's worth it.

It's only worth it if it saves *my* life.

Okay, maybe Scotty's, too.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

Where does your quote come from? Where are these recordings? Who is on
them?
OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:20:56 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:

The line that homeland security is the reason for no more
attacks....What was the reason in all the years prior to 911?

You seem to have conveniently ignored the other, failed al Qaeda attempt
to
level the WTC some years before 9/11.

You're correct of course....FBI did nothing to prevent the attack.
Guess the system works eh?

Oh and was it AlQaeda?

FBI foreknowledge

In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an
informant, an Egyptian man named Emad Salem, who was involved with the
bombing conspiracy. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot
to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992, information he was
privy to possibly because he himself initiated the plot. Salem's role
as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out
of the hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem asserted that the original FBI plan was to supply the plotters
with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their
bomb, but that an FBI supervisor decided that a real bomb should be
constructed instead. He substantiated his claims with hundreds of
hours of secretly-recorded conversations with his FBI handlers, made
during discussions held after the bombings.

Salem said he wished to complain to FBI headquarters in Washington
about the failure to prevent the bombing despite foreknowledge, but
was dissuaded from doing so by the New York FBI office. The FBI has
never contradicted Salem's account.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:20:56 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:

The line that homeland security is the reason for no more
attacks....What was the reason in all the years prior to 911?

You seem to have conveniently ignored the other, failed al Qaeda attempt
to
level the WTC some years before 9/11.

You're correct of course....FBI did nothing to prevent the attack.
Guess the system works eh?

Whose system? Al Qaeda's? Yeah, that one seems to work. Ours? Nope, that
one's broken and so far no one seems inclined to fix it.
FBI--CIA--NSA--they all grandstand and do everything they can to take credit
for successes, all the while racking up more and more failures due to a
complete inability to cooperate and share intel.

Oh and was it AlQaeda?

FBI foreknowledge

In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an
informant, an Egyptian man named Emad Salem, who was involved with the
bombing conspiracy. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot
to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992, information he was
privy to possibly because he himself initiated the plot. Salem's role
as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out
of the hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem asserted that the original FBI plan was to supply the plotters
with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their
bomb, but that an FBI supervisor decided that a real bomb should be
constructed instead. He substantiated his claims with hundreds of
hours of secretly-recorded conversations with his FBI handlers, made
during discussions held after the bombings.

Salem said he wished to complain to FBI headquarters in Washington
about the failure to prevent the bombing despite foreknowledge, but
was dissuaded from doing so by the New York FBI office. The FBI has
never contradicted Salem's account.

Rather nicely confirms my contention that the system is broken, eh?

As long as incompetence and resistance to cooperate is the norm in
Washington--both in politics and in police work/intel--we can expect more of
the same. I'm watching to see if our new Homeland Security system accrues a
better track record, but I'm skeptical, human nature being what it is. So
far, so good, but the verdict is still out, of course, on HS.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:24:43 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:26:29 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:
What line? HS doesn't claim to be smoke and mirrors. That's your take,
not
theirs. And the evidence supports HS, not you. The US has been free of
terrorist attack since HS instituted its programs. HS may have
absolutely
nothing to do with that, but you can't prove it doesn't. So your
argument
is invalid.


My house was always very cold. This winter, I painted the house red, and
closed
all the open windows. Yep... Painting my house red sure made it a lot
warmer!

Unlikely, but since you failed to isolate your variables you, too, have no
evidence that the paint didn't raise the temp in your house as much or
more
than closing the windows.

Max


I'll refer you to your equally unsupportable (in exactly the same way)
statements above, Jeffy.

You seem to have conveniently ignored my comment "HS may have had absolutely
nothing to do with that . . ." I contended nothing beyond pointing out that
the original poster couldn't prove anything either.

Max (aka "Jeffy," apparently)

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:12:37 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:14:08 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:



Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security is a sham.

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment: So we've
established
that examining incoming containers is not feasible. For that reason, is
it
reasonable to simply ignore all other aspects of homeland security that
ARE
feasible, such as clearing individuals for entry?

Max

T's feasible....just look at the number of people employed to check
baggage, people and crdentials at every airport in the US.
Thing is, putting that same number of people into checking containers
has little political advantage because Joe Public won't see the work
being done and be able to wrap himself in that warm fuzzy security
blanket.


Have you ever looked at a shipping container packed full of, say, boxes
with
electronics? There might be literally hundreds or thousands of cardboard
cartons in a single container packed wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling. How
does an inspector check each carton to be sure it contains what the label
specifies? A single carton could contains plastique or the makings of a
dirty bomb. Are you going to open each and every one? Some containers
are
packed with loose items, and would be even more difficult to inspect.
From
a cost effectivity standpoint, it isn't feasible to inspect the contents
of
every container entering this country.


Ever thought that the level of personal inspection has lulled most
passengers into a very false sense of security so they are now not on
the lookout for stuff happening onboard?

I think about it every time I fly. But there is little or nothing the
average passenger can do if he spots something or someone suspicious once
airborne. Getting lulled into a false sense of security has obviously
helped the airlines avoid a plunge into the abyss of financial ruin. Most
of them, anyhow.

If, however, we abandon the personal inspections, what prevents a repeat
of
9/11?

Max


Max that's my point...smoke an mirrors and personal inspections are
there to make Joe Public feel as if there's something happening..where
in fact there is no way of protecting the US against an attack

Joe Public isn't as easily fooled as you might choose to believe. The vast
majority of us are fully aware that the measures currently taken by HS are
but a finger in a 12 foot hole in the dike. I have yet to speak with anyone
who actually believes we are even modestly secure now, thanks to measures
taken.

Most of feel we have a somewhat lessened likelihood of becoming part of an
airborne bomb now. And most of us hope that the current measures may, if
only in a very small way, thwart or complicate some attempts at terrorism
here. And we hope that such measures make it more difficult for terrorists
to infiltrate and function stateside. But we are not deluded, and neither
should you be with respect to our expectations. Everyone I know fully
expects future attacks of some nature.

Realistically our greatest asset against terrorism is the relative lack of
money on their part. Al Qaeda has hundreds of millions of dollars at its
disposal, but that's but a drop in the overall ocean of money being spent to
combat terrorism. Al Qaeda will always be financially challenged.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:39:36 +1100, OzOne wrote:

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:12:37 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:14:08 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:



Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security is a sham.

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment: So we've
established
that examining incoming containers is not feasible. For that reason,
is
it
reasonable to simply ignore all other aspects of homeland security that
ARE
feasible, such as clearing individuals for entry?

Max

T's feasible....just look at the number of people employed to check
baggage, people and crdentials at every airport in the US.
Thing is, putting that same number of people into checking containers
has little political advantage because Joe Public won't see the work
being done and be able to wrap himself in that warm fuzzy security
blanket.


Have you ever looked at a shipping container packed full of, say, boxes
with
electronics? There might be literally hundreds or thousands of cardboard
cartons in a single container packed wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling. How
does an inspector check each carton to be sure it contains what the label
specifies? A single carton could contains plastique or the makings of a
dirty bomb. Are you going to open each and every one? Some containers
are
packed with loose items, and would be even more difficult to inspect.
From
a cost effectivity standpoint, it isn't feasible to inspect the contents
of
every container entering this country.


Ever thought that the level of personal inspection has lulled most
passengers into a very false sense of security so they are now not on
the lookout for stuff happening onboard?

I think about it every time I fly. But there is little or nothing the
average passenger can do if he spots something or someone suspicious once
airborne. Getting lulled into a false sense of security has obviously
helped the airlines avoid a plunge into the abyss of financial ruin.
Most
of them, anyhow.

If, however, we abandon the personal inspections, what prevents a repeat
of
9/11?

Max


Max that's my point...smoke an mirrors and personal inspections are
there to make Joe Public feel as if there's something happening..where
in fact there is no way of protecting the US against an attack


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Max has a very short and overly selective memory. The U.S. had hundreds or
thousands of Russian missles aimed directly at it for 40 years and we
didn't
need a "War on Terror", a "Patriot Act", or any other such nonsense.

Max's memory is has greater longevity and is far less selective than you'd
like to believe. What you have conveniently overlooked is that your analogy
is entirely inappropriate for several reasons: 1) Our enemy (USSR) was
easily identified and nicely compartmentalized. Al Qaeda is neither. 2)
Dealing with the Soviet missle threat was simple--MAD, or mutual assured
destruction, kept both sides from pushing buttons for almost half a century.
We have no such arrangement with Islamist terrorists.

Our war with terrorists is more like a war against rodents. A population of
rodents can be virtually invisible, but inflicting constant and persistent
damage. You can't threaten rodents, and you can't simply aim a bunch of
missles at them and expect them to cease and desist. You take the war to
them, with traps, poisons, and by blocking their entry into your zone of
occupation. You attempt to anticipate their movements in the hope of
cutting them off at the pass. If you simply ignore them, you'll end up
knee-deep in rat and mouse **** by dinner time.

Oprah-zation has made the US into an overwrought bunch of handwringing
ninnys.

Fear mongering is a whole new industry in this country. Universities engage
in it, the various media base their annual profits on it, and it's the topic
of the moment over coffee and Oprah. Personally I worry less about
terrorism than about toenail fungus, and I don't worry about that at all.

The 400 billion Dollars spent so far in Iraq could have done quite a bit
to
solve real problems at home. 400 Billion Dollars... and counting.

Yup.

The entire "War on Terror" is a sham. Every last bit of it.

That's a rather blanket statement for someone attempting to pass himself off
as a pseudo-intellectual. I'm more than willing to listen to your
alternatives to the so-called "war on terror." But I'm guessing that you
have none. You're rather typical of the current genera of complainers--no
ideas of your own beyond whining about those who are doing something, if
ineffective and mis-guided. I'll take mis-directed action any day over one
whining while doing nothing more than urinating in his drawers.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:06:03 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

I believe it's up to 5% now.

Scotty


Now there's security in action.....:-)

How would you inspect every container entering the US?


When you say inspected, do you understand that they don't
actually open them up and check inside? Mostly they run an
x-ray machine around the container. A very slow process as
it's done now.
At least on the East Coast, they set a dozen or so
containers on the ground, in line, then drive the x-ray
machine over them, slowly. A costly , time consuming
process.
I don't know why they don't have a drive thru type machine.

Because it would be logical?

Max

Expensive, inneffective, and out of the publics eye so no feel good
advanyage.

Right, but a more logical alternative to the current expensive, ineffective,
and out-of-the-public-eye method currently being used.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:06:57 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

You're an ex-cop. How would you deal with terrorism in
Australia?


He'd remove all guns from citizens.

Yup. That would do it. At least until one of those from whom he was
attempting to confiscate a firearm shot him.

Max

Citizen would be nuts to try and confiscate a gun from anyone.

Yet that's precisely what the anti-gun fanatics advocate. I'm really
curious as to exactly whom they intend to send to do the dirty work.

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 06:15:26 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:31:13 +0000, Peter Wiley
scribbled thusly:


Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security is a sham.

Couldn't agree more.

The real joke here is, after you pass thru the scanners, you can buy
drinks in glass bottles on the inside. And they're worried about Swiss
Army knives and the like?

Security? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa.

PDW

And on the aircraft, you're given bottles of wine, are served from
bottles, can purchase duty free in bottles, and your teeth are not
pulled in the name of security.

I've flown regularly for the past five years--often in first class--and I
have yet to be given a glass anything on a plane. Even the forks and
knives
are plastic.

Max

You fly on some crappy airlines!

United, American, Delta, Southwest, a few other connectors. Lufthansa, El
Al, and Virgin don't seem to have intra-US routes these days, Oz. Maybe on
international flights I'd actually get a real glass wine bottle, huh? Then,
by God, I'd have a weapon to ward off those nasty terrorist people.

This discussion is so amusing as to be comical. Do you honestly believe a
tiny broken wine bottle would have the same impact as an open Swiss Army
knife?

Max

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message

I get fingerprinted every three years in order to obtain a firearms carry
permit. BFD--I have nothing to hide. It makes my fingers black and the
cleanup is a PITA, but hardly worth fretting over. It may be an
infringement on my privacy and personal freedom, but it is what I have to
do to accomplish my goal, so I do it without bitching. To refuse to do so
would mean that I am denied my permit to carry. That would affect me--not
those who have instigated the policies.

Good Grief!!... I have never been fingerprinted. I have a restricted weapons
permit, I have an airside access permit, I have a clean record..... having
something to hide isn't the issue here Max..... having information about me
stored within a system as displayed by the US government is. I have the
option not to have that information gathered. Despite our idiotic gunlaws in
Canada.... I don't require a retinal scan nor fingerprinting to obtain
restricted weapons permit.

I'm not chosing to become a global hermit here... nor am I electing to hide
within the masses by compliance. I am merely defining the limits of what I
find acceptable to provide.


And no, you don't offend my national pride, or any such silly, fallacious
conclusion you may concoct, in the least. My point is simply that your
indignation is placing limits on your ability to move about the world. It
has no effect whatever upon me or my countrymen. You're more than welcome
to stand on your principles and avoid the US. We don't care in the
slightest.

Bull****.... it's obvious it offends you. It's not indignation on my part
Max.... it's merely refusal to comply with ridiculous demands. We are all
limited as to our ability to "move about the world"... make no mistake
regarding that fact. Nonetheless... my not having access to the USA in no
way impedes my ability to travel to the remaining 80% of the countries on
this planet that are available to me.
....and Max, I most certainly will stand on my principals.

I guess, then, that you'll not be going anywhere a passport is necessary,
eh?

You're suffering a brain fart there aren't you Max.... I have a passport
and can travel to the majority of the countries on this planet.... which
do not require retinal scans and fingerprinting. I currently have an EEC
Passport, microchipped and a Canadian Permanent Resident Card as well as 2
entry visas to the USA labelled " permanent.indefinite for business or
pleasure" . I'm welcome almost everywhere I choose to go.

CM

I'm ba aaaack!
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message

This discussion is so amusing as to be comical. Do you honestly believe a
tiny broken wine bottle would have the same impact as an open Swiss Army
knife?

Damn Rights it would..... I know, I've actually been on the receiving end
of a fight where my opponent resorted to a broken bottle. I've also been in
a knife fight. The cutting edge of a broken half litre wine bottle will do
ten times the damage with half the effort to four times the amount of people
than a fricken swiss army knife with no locking blade!!

CM